I recently visited St Andrew's Benedictine Abbey, and purchased this ceramic Angel, simply called Teacher Angel. To me it's silly, because the math equation on the chalkboard doesn't follow ordinary math principles. 1+1=3... Is there a Christian lesson that uses this symbolism? At the cash regis...
@PeterTurner The other two verses don't mention purgatory either. 1 Cor 3:13 is even clearly referring to Judgement Day when everyone's deeds will be tested by the purifying fire.
The Q&A is very good (the audience knows philosophy and Christianity) and gives her the opportunity to answer difficult questions about reconciling the God of the Bible (who has humanity and "in-time" characteristics such as changing his mind) and the immutability & simplicity of Classical Theism as well as expand a little on her E-T Simultaneity theory (about the relation between Eternal Now and our time), about proper understanding of medieval impassibility, non-propositional knowledge, etc.
The lecture complements very nicely the one I shared with you earlier as well as the Closer to Truth videos I linked here. What I appreciate is her scholarly humility (it surprised me that even on Duns Scotus she claims to have "no license" which then raise my confidence on the things she's talking about) and her fidelity to literal Bible interpretation and orthodox doctrines.
@curiousdannii I'm at the point where I see theology as serving spirituality. Fruit is both increase in personal holiness as well as what we do as a result, individually and in community. So lately I have been looking to theology more of how it can help me (in the reasoning department) to produce more fruit, fight the latent power of sin, and formulate Biblical spiritual practices.
@curiousdannii Ohh, Ecclus as in Ecclesiasticus as in Sirach. biblehub.com/catholic/sirach/7-37.htm another deuterocanonical reference to purgatory, and this is explicit "restrain not grace from the dead"
@curiousdannii that's a dogmatic understanding of it, Purgatory is the punishment for sins of the earth. Revelation is pretty clear about two judgements. Particular and Final; do most Protestants believe that?
@curiousdannii Right. I could maybe buy the 1 Corinthians reference, but the doctrine of Purgatory as it stands in RCC is a lot to extrapolate from a single verse that could easily mean something different.
@PeterTurner Citation?
I'm not aware that I've ever heard such a distinction, unless you're talking about the judgment of each individual vs. judgment as a whole.
@PeterTurner Right. Protestantism (Sola Scriptura) explicitly rejects "the Church says it is so" as a basis for any doctrine.
@PeterTurner If there's a difference between the two (most Protestants, AFAIK, don't believe that's the case), does that mean that anyone who is alive at the Second Coming doesn't go to purgatory?
@PeterTurner ...and Protestantism interprets Galatians 1:8 as a warning specifically against accepting "the Church" or "Scripture + Tradition + Magesterial Teaching" as a basis for any theology. Especially when that theology appears to go against Biblical teaching. So, using "the Church says it is so" to try to convince a Protestant is almost surely going to be counter-productive. Both approaches are self-reinforcing but absolutely opposed to each other.
I think I covered all the bases... But if you take away scripture, the whole thing collapses. But it also collapses if you take away the other legs, that doesn't contradict Gal 1:8 in the least.
@PeterTurner No. Protestantism is "the Church says so, because of Bible verses ...". You're using the Church itself as the authority. My point is that if you want to talk to a Protestant, you need to refer to the Bible first and foremost. Bringing in "the Pope said" or "the Magesterium said" is counterproductive. Don't mention them; go straight to the Bible.
@PeterTurner Right, but Protestants don't believe that those claimed non-contradictions are real.
...or that theology "collapses" without extra-Biblical support.
@Matthew I don't much! But I can't change what the Bible says and I can't change the Church's interpretation. The only thing that changes is that every Protestant has their own take on the Bible - the only thing they agree on is the Catholic Church's interpretation is wrong.
My point is that if you're going to convince a Protestant that they're wrong, you're more likely (at least IMHO) to have success by showing them that the Bible doesn't say what they think it says. Just saying that some human says that their theology is wrong is definitely going to be met with "but the Bible says ...", and thus fall on deaf ears.
OK, that's probably doable. Just keep _sola scriptura_ing until ones private interpretation is congruent to Catholicism. AND skip the deuterocanonicals
As I was saying earlier, good Protestants don't treat the Bible as the only source of knowledge. We have our own authorities that we think are correct (Luther, Calvin, etc.), but we don't hold their teachings at the same level as Scripture; they're merely human and might be wrong.
@PeterTurner ...sure? But I would take that to mean forgiveness at the time of final judgment. Not that judgment isn't final.
Note the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; once you're judged, you're judged. There is no second chance.
@Matthew true - which still lines up with purgatory doctrine, those who "make it there" are brought into the beatific vision eventually, just not immediately after death.
Fair enough; I'm not claiming that specific verse denies Purgatory. (I think a case can be made from other verses.) I only claim I don't see any meaningful support for the idea of Purgatory in the canonical Scripture.
Likewise the Immaculate Conception. Plus that there seem to be significant theological issues with the idea.
@Matthew That's basically Scott Hahn's approach, he was a Protestant pastor trained in a Protestant seminary. His usual apologetic approach is to offer Biblical basis of Catholic doctrines, such as showing how the Papacy is foreshadowed by David's kingdom and how those NT verses related to binding and losing make more sense in a Catholic framework.
Similarly, Bishop Barron did a mini exegesis for the Biblical basis for Mary as Queen of heaven here. On the surface, that's quite convincing, and I wonder how Protestants counter that interpretation.
@GratefulDisciple That's the gist of the Bible Timeline program we're doing in our Parish now, I went through the program a few years ago in catechist training. And I think Protestants buy the progression of Covenants as a means of God Revealing Himself over time. But the meaning of the word 'Church' is a point of consternation.
@PeterTurner Out of curiosity, is catechist training left to the full discretion of the bishop, or do the bishops use common resource developed by USCCB, or maybe the Vatican recommend a curriculum and books that are translalated into many languages, or is there a religious order (maybe Jesuits?) who develop something popular among cathecists?
Or maybe there is a catehicst trainer certification program in a Catholic university?
@GratefulDisciple I think it's at the discretion of the Bishop. Our former Bishop started a program called the Seat of Wisdom Diocesan Institute to train up catechists, I don't think anything at all existed before that
Our current Bishop is really into getting parishioners into "small groups". And most of the parishes have switched to a full-parish catechesis instead of a drop-off-your-kids and hope they learn something mentality. I don't know if it's called this other places, but here it's referred to as "Family of Faith"
It's not a terrible change, but it doesn't make much difference to homeschooling parents or add much to our kids education since we do religion every day.
The Franciscan At Home has a list of books here (select under Category: Recommended Reading: Catechist Track) which surprisingly includes C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce & Mere Christianit, Sheldon Vanauken's A Severe Mercy (he's a friend of Lewis who also grieved because his wife died of illness), Peter Kreeft and Fulton Sheen books, etc. They should have included Chesterton books too!
@PeterTurner Small groups idea sounds great. That's what Protestants do !
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