@LukeHill there is something to say for "scarcity of thought", but I believe some conflicts are fought over ideas or at the very least ideals.

Do you outline those blog posts? I've never been a big fan of it, but there is a super handy hint in Peter Kreeft's Socractic Logic. Dividing terms into exclusive, exhaustive and by only one basis. I think that'll keep you free from veering into questions about personal and private property.

Is personal property separate than private properly or is one a subset of the other? What is public property?

@LukeHill isn't the substance "wood" and the essence a table? or the type of wood Oak vs Maple? The table is substantially wooden, it is in essence a table.

@LukeHill Just curious, what is your point in bringing this up to me? Is it a question / comment 😀? If a comment, a comment in regards to.... ? Anyway, it made me want to refresh my understanding of this Aristotelian key concepts, and bring in other pairs: potentiality/actuality, matter/form, essence/existence and of course the good 'ol four causes. Found a short article for a lay audience here.

> You can readily see that the substances (cat, grandchild, tree) are self-standing items, existing “in themselves”, but they cant be a property of something else – nothing can be “cat” or “tree”, so they cant be “present in (as a feature of) another”. Accidents (“black”, “female”, “leafy”) on the other hand can only be present as features of things (substances) , they are “present in another” not “beings in themselves”.

> Thus, you never come across a big or a black, an old or a female, it always has to be a big, black or old something.

The author then contrasted this with Plato's understanding, which Aristotle criticized:

> By the way, Plato thought that properties were instances in the everyday world of universals which exist in another heavenly world of Forms. So the black of my cat instantiates the Form of the Black (blackness). Even if every black thing in the world were destroyed, the Form of the Black would remain, just uninstantiated. But Aristotle thought blackness existed only as and in its instances. “Goodbye to the Forms, for they are nonsense” he said.

What I find very interesting in the history of Christian theology is how Aquinas (who uses Aristotle's understanding) managed to incorporate Augustine's theology (who gravitates more to Plato). And now modern Catholic theologians (like Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI) incorporate existential philosophical concepts and analytic theologians like Eleonore Stump who uses the precision of analytic philosophy.

Thus Catholic theologies and spiritualities have been and continually to be richly blessed to offer Biblical teaching constructed in several ways through careful exegesis that should not be corrupted with any philosophy imposed on it, but faithful to ancient Hebrew thought patterns instead, which is narrative based and have their own unique "metaphysics". I'm very happy to see 21st century scholars heed this separation and synthesize those angles wisely in constructing their theologies.

@GratefulDisciple I was just curious, you're more well read on the top than I am

@PeterTurner Yes, conflicts often occur over ideas. But ideas in and of themselves do not cause conflicts. It's only when the ideas are sought to be applied that conflict arises.

For instance, say Friday has the idea of using Crusoe's spear to poke his fire, but Crusoe has the idea to use his spear to fish. Friday's idea in and of itself does not cause conflict. It is only when Friday seeks to a) tell Crusoe he plans to take the spear (ie he starts running towards the spear to grab it) or b) he actually takes the spear.

No conflict can actually occur over the though itself.

@PeterTurner I have a general idea of what I'm going to write about. I felt that private and person property were perfectly valid questions to ask in regards to ownership

Especially since ownership is the primary concern when discussing scarcity and conflict over scarce goods

@GratefulDisciple Also the whole questions is centered around Eucharist and trying to understand what it means for the wine and bread to look the same yet be substantially changed. Also how does this differ from Calvin's view of consubstantiation? What's the difference between substantial presence and spiritual presence

@LukeHill is the "personal property" vs "private property" distinction one of those modernist smells to be on the lookout for (Like "non-binary" in 2017) or has that been around for a while? I'd never heard of it before.

@LukeHill also, if ideas don't cause conflict, then what is temptation?

@PeterTurner Its a marxian distinction I believe

you know the old joke about communal toothbrushes with communism?

@PeterTurner I think you might be confusing the legal and the moral. Maybe you can define what is meant by temptation?

@LukeHill In Soviet Russia tooth brush you?

@PeterTurner :) clever

Basically they would say you can have personal possessions such as clothes

but other possessions are meant to be communally owned

Its hard to explain because of how inherently ambiguous it is

@LukeHill I always confuse the legal and the moral. I think that may be what idealism is? I dunno, you could write another essay on that though.

@PeterTurner I have written an Essay on it

lukewatsonhill.medium.com/…

Off topic for a bit, how are you doing

how's the kids how's the life

We haven't talked for a decent amount of time

@LukeHill pretty good, very busy although I never get to leave the house much.

@PeterTurner I am busy as well

Have you heard from any schools?

College applications, School, ect

@PeterTurner Still not done applying

Ive narrowed it down

Hillsdale, Grove City College (this one is new), Belmont, and University of Utah

Have you looked at Benedictine (in Kansas) or University of Dallas? (considering both of those for my daughter who is a year behind you)

Are you running into any roadblocks on the road to Catholicism?

@LukeHill If that's the purpose, then this short article from an academic (yet not too technical) blog should answer your question: Transubstantiation, Consubstantiation, or Something Else? Roman Catholic vs. Protestant Views of the Lord's Supper

If we want to be a stickler to how the individual reformers and the Catholic church theolgoians understood it at the time we have to be careful to distinguish philosophical vs. theologican explanation. Methodologically, theology is not limited to what can be expressed philosophically. Theology borrows philosophy's language, and thus can be re-expressed in different ages without changing the teaching.

Therefore, even within Catholicism, I don't think the Magisterium is committing itself eternally to Aquinas's definition of Transubstantiation which maybe borrowing Aristotelian concept. So for Catholics who don't buy Aristotelian philosophy, they can still believe Transubstantiation expressed differently.

On the Protestant side, it would be wrong to try to express Calvin's view in Aristotelian terms especially since Calvin himself was not committed to Aristotelian philosophy, but seems to express his theology using more Biblical concepts. But when later Reformed theologians want to compare and contrast with Catholic theologies that were STILL expressed in Thomistic terms, they would dialogue by trying to represent Reformed teachings in similar philosophical terms.

@GratefulDisciple this kind of stuff is surprisingly easy for Comp Sci majors to understand (as compared to other philosophical concepts.) 3-sat and map coloring and the travelling salesmen problem are all NP-Complete and can all transform into the same basic question; they're the same hard question no matter which way you look at it.

@PeterTurner Yes, it's natural for us. Similarly (you are using the example of various algorithms to solve the same problem), we are used to repackage those zeros and ones in various data structures and manipulate them in various types of programming language: procedural, functional, and now, statistical (machine learning).

Transubstantiation by any other model for understanding the universe would still be the same thing Catholics believe. Aristotelian logic is just one view into the mystery.

@GratefulDisciple have you ever ran across a programming language based on classical/socratic logic as opposed to symbolic logic?

Gotta go, will reply later.

@PeterTurner I haven't. If we're going to find it, it would most likely be expressed using the AI language LISP, designed to represent human knowledge and inferences naturally.

BTW, found a nice wikipedia article on Peter Kreeft's Socratic Logic book containing helpful outlines of key concepts.

Something in my distant "to learn" list would be Clojure & Haskell, descendants of LISP, but Python & ML first. I have chosen Python to be my kid's first language.

@PeterTurner I might have to check out Go if I ever need to use Kubernetes or build quick-and-dirty web services in a cloud system that uses one (see The State of Go). I learned and used LISP in college but didn't use Emacs for editing/running the programs. I liked LISP and thought it to be a very versatile meta language to construct other languages. Now that hardware is very fast, I think its inherent inefficiencies no longer an issue.

Grammarly uses LISP on AWS Linux VMs! Here are other current uses of LISP.

@GratefulDisciple "Hardware is fast"... only if your problem is trivial compared to your budget (time, energy, hardware). There will always be value in writing efficient software.

@Matthew Of course. But don't forget human cost too: like code maintainability, availability of programmers with that skill, development tools, ready-to-use code libraries, etc. At the end of the day, it's always safe to join a big tribe which is applicable to theology too 😀 : safety in numbers, catholicity?

@GratefulDisciple Sure, but... inefficient software is "good" for a computationally-easy problem you only need to solve once. Something like Grammarly sounds like an interesting case study in developer cost vs. energy and material costs of an inefficient implementation.

I'm not sure "safety in numbers" applies to Christianity. Jesus is the narrow gate, after all!

Case in point: VM technologies that optimize inefficient Java programs, that have economies of scale to develop given the billions of Android devices out there.

Hello

Im back

@PeterTurner Ha! School mostly, plus college applications.

Im registered for RCIA but haven't been able to go and my mom won't let me till I finish college applications

Thankfully my parish does RCIA year round so I dont need to hit that easter deadline

@Matthew Yes, we are different in this. To me narrow gate has to do with personal relationship with Christ rather than the particular theology individuals can use (corresponding to various programming systems). I put more value in a theology that is battleground tested and peer reviewed.

but I have been attending Mass weekly

which is a blessing

@LukeHill That's great. I hope you will be able to attend the college of your #1 choice. Hopefully by that time, Covid no longer impede face-to-face instruction and student activities.

@GratefulDisciple The colleges on my list have all abandoned COVID regulations. It is odd traveling out of the state of Idaho to visit other states and still see regulations. We are very lax here (praise Christ above)

@GratefulDisciple To be fair, I would say the same, but also that I believe Catholicism has failed that testing 🙂. However, I would agree that an individual trying to find their own way and ignoring everything else is likely to end up in error.

@LukeHill Amen! My state is mostly sane, though my employer has an office in a state which is less so.

(I'm not surprised that Idaho is in the "sane" list, though. 😁 It's the higher population densities that tend to concentrate the idiots. So, e.g. California...)

@Matthew Can you remind me of your criticisms of Catholicism? I always appreciate individual critiques of ideas.

@GratefulDisciple You could become Eastern Orthodox, but I think they have some issues, especially with Pope Agathos Letter to the 6th Ecumenical Council.

@Matthew I don't even trust the label people use to self-identify anymore, unless they demonstrate that they understand the label. For example, I met someone who says she is "Presbyterian" but actually behaves more like a Latter-rain charismatic and borderline prosperity gospel whose label she denies although the way she prays show what she really believes.

@GratefulDisciple Self identification is definitely an issue today, probably born out of lack of education

Man I cannot wrap my head around aesthetics and its boring me to death (back to metaphysics and politics)

Yesterday's preaching at the CMA church I'm currently attending is quite good, part of a series on being a Christ-Centered Servant on loving enemies (Matt 5:43-48). The pastor started with how our action is the truest indicator of the hierarchy of values we have, showing whether our worldview puts Christ at the top or not. If we are the true children of the Father (v. 45) we will extend mercy to the wicked and the unjust like how the Father does in this current age.

So rather than taking a person's self-description on its face value, I would need to get know that person in REAL LIFE (in the person's natural habitat) and see whether his/her words and actions are indicative of the heart that has been transformed by Christ. It only matters secondarily whether she/he is Catholic, evangelical, Orthodox, etc.

@LukeHill Theology-wise, yes, I'm somewhat aligned more with Eastern Orthodox, except their ecclesiology just like Scott Hahn. But now I'm accommodating practical consideration: church well suited for my kids (i.e. youth programs) and my wife's theological preference. I'm quite happy with my church's pastoral leadership and teaching (the most important element), and more concentrating on building my family's spirituality in line with Biblical teaching (non-denominational).

Once in a while I would attend Catholic mass. @PeterTurner I even attend a Catholic charismatic "life in the spirit" seminar (!) to see in real life what Catholics believe about the Holy Spirit from Charismatic angle. @Matthew This is another example of the safety of Catholicism. They have strict accountability. The ones who give the talk are deacons / priests under strict supervision of the bishop.

There are 8 sessions (8 weeks): Introduction, God's love, Salvation, New Life, Receiving God's Gift, Baptism in the Holy Spirit, Growth, and Transformation. We're about halfway through. The talks are short (20 minutes) and I like it because they share personal stories. The theology behind it I right away recognize as orthodox Catholic, referring to CCC, etc. despite charismatic bent. The praise and worship is very similar to Protestant charismatics, even use some of the same songs!

@GratefulDisciple wife Is probably the most important question.

@TheProphetElisha I hope the answer to that question is yes!