@curiousdannii hey there! what's up.

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Last message before I go to bed today - I watched some of @NigelJ on YouTube and his work is quite good.

@curiousdannii I'd like to share this excellent 2020 essay with you on recent history of: Inerrancy and Evangelicals: The Challenge for a New Generation. Honest, clear on the issues, identify important people and events and statements, very helpful to me as input to my own stand for which hermeneutical stand I'm comfortable with vis a vis with what Patristics used, which to me should be a major factor for consideration.

@GratefulDisciple Thanks, I'll give it a read

@curiousdannii For the Patristics hermeneutics side I'm reading Prof. Darren Slade's 2016 paper Christian Hermeneutics: The Problem of Using Solely Historical-Grammatical Methods for Christian Exegesis which contrasts Patristic exegesis with modern Historical-Grammatical Theory and then suggests using a Contemporary-Patristic Integrative Approach.

I'm reading it as the first step to dig deeper into NT author's own hermeneutical practice of establishing typologies with OT, some of which I find puzzling because we don't seem to know what principle they used.

It looks like he is a proponent of socio-rhetorical method to supplement historical-grammatical method which Soldarnal asked in BH.SE 9 years ago. I'm interested how this interacts with the evangelical doctrine of inerrancy.

@GratefulDisciple question - can you explain what an “evangelical” is? I know it’s a kind of Protestant, but there are so Protestant groups that aren’t.

@LukeHill You are right that 99% evangelicals identify as Protestants although there are a lot of Protestants who are not. Shortest self definition are Christians which agree to the 4 statements similar to how NAE defined them.

As for church membership, they can belong to 1) a non-denominational church, 2) a church that is part of an evangelical denomination (such as SBC), 3) a Protestant church that is NOT part of an evangelical denomination (therefore a subculture, just like some charismatics don't belong to a Pentecostal church), 4) the Catholic church (this is very rare, but there are high profile evangelicals who became Catholics).

Thus, evangelical movement is strongly trans-denominational from the very beginning in the mid 18th century (see the wikipedia article). Due to the early leading figures and early members, there are strong presence of Reformed and Wesleyan members, and later Pentecostal and charismatics too.

Although lately (in the past few decades), the Reformed element became stronger due to influence from large evangelical Reformed denominations such as SBC. There is also cracks forming due to Trump (some support him, some don't).

Christianity Today is a major magazine to read about evangelicalism since they purposefully cater to evangelicals although they try to serve the needs of the larger Protestant community as well. In my perception, Touchstone magazine also caters to evangelicals who are also more open to Catholic view. I like both magazines. Both are good sources to learn more about the movement.

In conclusion: evangelicals want Christians to be self-aware of who they are and consciously cultivate their relationship with Christ as the only sufficient source of salvation, although they are open to sacramental means of grace in Baptism / Lord Supper too. The Bible is central and sufficient, needing no other authorities except responsible interpretation.

Besides the 1st option, I don’t see how those other 3 markers are special.

Actually wait nevermind

I misread some of those

But I don’t see how a intellectually honest catholic could identify as evangelical.

@LukeHill Out of the 4 statements, the first one is tricky one ("The Bible is the highest authority for what I believe.") Since Vatican II, in theory, an evangelical can be honest Catholic, since evangelical does NOT forbid addition, only removal.

In my opinion, as long as they don't contradict some essentials (Trinity, Nicaea + Chalcedon creeds, centrality of Jesus for salvation, ready to share the gospel, self-consciously nurture being disciple, etc.), they can still wear their evangelical badge.

My own C.SE username and my profile is indirectly evangelical, although my view (which is friendly to Catholics and Eastern Orthodox) is broader than most.

@GratefulDisciple good point Luke might even find these guys evangelicalcatholic.org on his college campus! (started by friends in our homeschool group)

(I think we talked about that before)

@GratefulDisciple My C.SE username is more explicit, I try to get people turned on to the Barque of St. Peter.

@PeterTurner Sure. Another difference with SBC is that I'm very much into Aquinas too, they are more into Jonathan Edwards, which is already an improvement since Edwards is closer to Aquinas than modern evangelicals.

@PeterTurner Yes, I actually was going to mention it, but don't want to clutter the definition. I think that group has a different meaning of "evangelical", still trying to find their self definition though.

Aquinas is the best

which is why I chose him as my pfp 😂

@PeterTurner GotQuestions has an article profiling what could be behind evangelicalcatholic.org: What is evangelical Catholicism?. It is different than my #4 above.

anyways new question is up, I actually really like this argument against Sola Scriptura but I'm curious to see the responses.

@GratefulDisciple @GratefulDisciple In all honesty I am not a fan of got questions. In their article on why Catholics aren't Christians, they named infant baptism as a incorrect belief. Like I guess I'll just ignore that infant baptism was practiced up until the 1600's.

My #4 is best illustrated by people like Francis Beckwith, an ex-president of ETS, which is the brain behind the evangelical movement in the past few decades. See this article.

@GratefulDisciple That sounds like Prima Scriptura, which also sounds incompatible with Church teaching (as far as I'm aware)

@PeterTurner Oh that's fascinating. I actually have some questions about homeschooling if you're free.

@LukeHill Yes, GotQuestions mission is to clarify position in the service of their defined audience: evangelicals. Of course Catholics may not agree 100% with what they say, but a very good resource to know what evangelicals think.

@LukeHill Heh, actually I'm super busy today. Another day, another 0-day exploit in a package that's been around for 12 years.

But I definitely am willing to chat about homeschooling

@GratefulDisciple They annoy me to be honest, their views are so close minded and they don't consider the Catholic Church as Christian

@PeterTurner All good, I'm working on computer science right now as well (coincidentally) and picture stenography.

@LukeHill About your most recent question the issue of the authority behind the canon is separate than the issue of what is the source of authority once the canon has been formed. The 2nd issue is easy to answer, but the 1st one is hard, and to me it's still an open issue.

Evangelicals would answer issue #1 this way: "The canon represents the only documents God inspired to contain the authoritative teaching of Jesus and the apostles. It's God's providence that the early church closed the canon that way." But on deeper scrutiny there are some unresolved issues.

Gotta go. TTYL

@GratefulDisciple Yea I agree, I think the first is a lot more deadly to Sola Scriptura. That being said the words of Jesus pretty clearly indicate the Holy Spirit guiding a Church into "all the truth".

It's very funny. I made up a lot of these arguments on my but have found that they were already proposed in some of the books that I recently got for Christmas. That being said its very cool that I came up with the same argument that Craig Keener did :)

@PeterTurner Of possible interest to you

@GratefulDisciple Yea thats a very unsatisfying answer, especially in regards to the dueterocanon.

I made this little poster to explain my most recent post

A little annoyed I haven't got a response on my Anglican founding question.

Hang on - Nigel runs Belmont Publications in the Uk. Anne Sanderson published a book there and there is a British woman on this site named Anne. Is it the same person?

@KorvinStarmast that's awesome - we need more pro-life anthems, nice guitar riffs too! I definitely want to go to the march for life in the next two years. I'd love to hear that sung there - there's something to be said for the songs of happy protesters.

@LukeHill There was a British guy named James T on the site a while ago (very nice guy), who was actually related to an MP or something, but he was not related to a fictional character in a G.K. Chesterton novel; no matter how hard I pressed him to admit it.

@PeterTurner :) GK Chesterton is the man, though I think I’m a bigger fan of CS Lewis

Anyways Peter do you think it’s the same Anne?

@LukeHill I couldn't say (literally) I definitely don't want to speculate since I could probably find out.

@PeterTurner if you do find out let me know because that would be rather interesting

Did you solve that issue with the 0-day exploit?

@LukeHill I'm guessing Protestants won't appreciate the Halting Problem being applied to their theology :)

@LukeHill Yeah, I even pwn'ed my own systems - which is fun

@PeterTurner wait that’s an actual argument with a name? Dang it I thought I was being original. Oh well it’s a good objection and I haven’t seen a good answer yet. Nigel’s answer was poetry plus Holy Spirit and the other guy said tradition had the infallible authority which literally disproves sola scriptura

@PeterTurner can you explain what that exploit is? I did research but I couldn’t figure it out.

@LukeHill that's Godel's incompleteness theorem - you'll learn about it in Theory of Comp Sci, probably

Basically saying the same thing you're saying. Newton's math can't say Netwon's math is true

something like that

I'd get chewed out no matter how I tried to explain it on StackOverflow

@LukeHill the exploit attacks /usr/bin/pkexec

It can get you to load another library (something you cook up yourself) to run an arbitrary command as root (i.e. shell)

The exploit I ran took advantage of changing charsets from UTF-8 to something else

So it's a little involved, but if you've got an unpatched ubuntu box you should be able to run github.com/mebeim/CVE-2021-4034

The other thing I'm doing right now is going back to school for a Masters of Engineering in Cybersecurity, so trying out these exploits is pretty fun

Interesting. That was a lot of words that I partially understood 😂

What is your day job @PeterTurner?