The Upper Room - 2019-10-10

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5:43 AM

@PeterTurner On meta my rule of thumb is if the topic being bandied about in comments has direct bearing on the question or answer, then leave then in place. If the topic changed or some rabbit trail is being followed or it has become more about two 3rd parties than the OP, then migrate to chat. If they ever come to a conclusion and get back on topic they can come back to meta and comment.

1 hour later…

7:07 AM

@fredsbend I get where you're going and even agree that the issue is really there, but trying to communicate that in this climate is going to go over about as well as chomping down on gravel in your gravy. Just saying.

6 hours later…

1:28 PM

If sensitive issues brought up in this chatroom continue get flagged (as evidenced by some removals above) that represent legitimate Christian viewpoints, we're going to have a problem here. I know people are on edge, but please do your best to restrain your hackles in this chatroom. We don't need the emperor leaving a garrison here.

1:40 PM

Always bugs me when non-CSE mods delete stuff out of this room that they don't understand...

2:17 PM

This happened to me in skeptics chat too. I said the trans thing yields confusion. And that non-binaries sounds utterly unserious as to sound like it's meant to be a joke.

Apparently that was advocating ridicule, so a mod told me.

2:35 PM

@fredsbend I don't have a ton of time to get into it with anybody right now, I'm trying to advocate for a chestertonian understanding of the word bigot rather than a modernist one. The key thing is to show that you understand how a trans woman could be a woman.

@Zoethetransgirl please don't come in here just to flag thing you don't agree with

Zoe the transgirl

@PeterTurner If I flagged things I don't agree with, there'd be a lot more flags.

@Zoethetransgirl ok, then just don't come in here just to flag things

Zoe the transgirl

Since when was there a rule against that?

This is absurd. Does this mean I get to go through all the chat rooms in all of Stack Exchange and flag anyone who says "Jesus Christ" or "God" in a way that bothers me?

3

Zoe the transgirl

@Nathaniel No, but if you find something violating SE's rules, yes.

And, again, if I flagged everything that bothered me, there'd be a lot more flags.

2:38 PM

Such people aren't being nice to me, ergo

"We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people based on [...] religion"

Zoe the transgirl

Hm, good point. I have no idea where exactly the lines goes there though. Maybe go ask on MSE?

That'd be... interesting. Or I can recognize that it's unhelpful to prevent people from communicating and expressing themselves by imposing my beliefs on them.

2

Zoe the transgirl

That works too.

3:02 PM

@fredsbend need to be sly as foxes these days.

El'endia Starman

3:32 PM

Sometimes I wish it didn't take me such a long time (relative to others) to gather my thoughts and mould them into a shape suitable for communicating the point I want to make.

@El'endiaStarman I feel the same way all the time :)

El'endia Starman

Statements that implicitly or explicitly say that transgender people are delusional or making things up or etc. run afoul of the Be Nice policy we've had since forever. That'd be like me implicitly or explicitly saying that e.g. Peter is not a True Christian™ because he's Catholic and all that entails. Regardless of whether that's my opinion (it's not, by the way), that's still an unacceptable statement to make here, in a public space hosted by StackExchange.

3

<rushing to read transcripts of conversations with Lee>

:)

El'endia Starman

I'm probably going to write a blog post at some point about this, but the main idea is that a person's identity, what they consider themselves to be, is effectively sacrosanct. Disputing someone else's identity is to be avoided.

@PeterTurner I can't win this game. They've stacked the deck, such that just by me playing I'm bound to lose.

2

18 hours ago, by fredsbend

Good job. Apparently I'm playing right into your hands. This is obviously a game in which you are far more skilled.

El'endia Starman

3:38 PM

@Nathaniel Just because people let it slide in the past doesn't make it okay! ;)

@El'endiaStarman Agreed! What do you think about: "I'm a Calvinist. Calvinists believe that non-trinitarians are not Christians (sources 1, 2, 3). You are a non-trinitarian."

El'endia Starman

@Nathaniel Just as a gut feeling, this gets close to the line but doesn't quite cross it. Context and tone are important (and your relationship with who you're talking to). In this particular example, the use of sources makes this feel like more of an academic discussion, which is something we explicitly allow on the main site.

Like, I'm definitely going to resist/fight against anyone that wants to shut down academic discussions of anti-whoever beliefs. That's different from straight up telling someone that they're going to Hell.

Fair enough. I certainly agree that we need to avoid unnecessarily offending each other, and definitely not insulting their intelligence (by calling them delusional or whatever). But I think what you're describing would be a shift in how we've discussed issues here in the past.

Not that I'm necessarily complaining... there were plenty of times that I was seriously tempted to just set certain people to "ignore" in here because it felt so personal

El'endia Starman

Sure. A shift in manner/mode of discussion isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

And again, it also depends on your audience. This is a public space, even if there's only ever been a few hundred people here at any time.

You can get away with a lot more if you're talking with a close friend or someone where both of you have high respect for each other.

Yeah. We have tended to perceive this as a fairly "closed group"... most difficult discussions have been between people who at least identify as Christians and have some common ground.

But that's obviously not accurate; others can drop in here at any time and see things from an outsider's perspective.

I remember waxeagle one time going after another mod who came in and deleted some message that was perfectly innocuous in context, at least to me, but from an outsider's perspective wasn't as obvious

El'endia Starman

3:51 PM

Indeed. And especially these days, only weeks after the pronoun issue blew up and conversation around trans issues became highly charged, it's now a pretty sensitive topic. Not that they can't be discussed at all, but one does have to be a lot more considerate of others who might be weary or in pain.

but at the end of the day these are all SE rooms and if anyone has a bone to pick with a particular room, they're going to get the strict enforcement they want.

@El'endiaStarman Yep. It'd be nice if such people just recognized that they're unlikely to find the kind of rest and relaxation they are looking for by dropping into a chat room dedicated to the religion whose Holy Book says some rather negative things about modern-day views of sexuality, but they certainly have that right.

@El'endiaStarman And who decides the characteristics of "identity", and thus those items that are sacrosanct?

My whole argument is that it's not a matter of identity in the first place. And you certainly know, here we've all heard and seen "you're not actually Christian" as the main point in many arguments.

El'endia Starman

@fredsbend Hah, I ain't gonna say something that you can rules-lawyer. But I will note that the current CoC includes gender and sexuality (and race and religion) as explicit examples. My thoughts aren't well-formed enough to go into detail but consider also: part of my identity is that I'm a mathematician. If you tell me that I'm not a real mathematician, obviously that's not as serious as telling me I'm not a real Christian, but it still has potential to run afoul of Be Nice.

@fredsbend Depends on tone and context. Maybe someone (like me) should've stepped in and told participants to calm down in those arguments.

So even if it was, "I don't believe you" is my opinion, whether one agrees or not, whether it appears valid to you or not. That I can't voice it on this topic but apparently can elsewhere is frustrating, and in a way that doesn't lead to understanding between the two sides.

El'endia Starman

Failures in the past do not constitute tolerance for similar behavior today.

4:01 PM

@fredsbend the rug that they pull out from under us is that "it's not how we identify, it's who we are". You're free to be an apostate, but X people aren't free to change X.

But in reality, we're in no way free to give up our religion, because that would mean we're going to Hell.

@El'endiaStarman I contend there's been few if any failures in the past. Virtually every discussion I've had here has been friendly, meaning, we all respected each user's right to his voice.

@fredsbend that's why I would prefer that people not involved in a conversation butt out. All they're trying to do is penalize you for speaking your mind and hope that you'll be as butt hurt as they are.

Unless they do want to be involved in the conversation. In which case, they may be told they're wrong.

The worst I've ever seen it is @TRiG telling me to eff off, to which I feel no personal aggrievement.

Even, I respect him more for being honest.

El'endia Starman

@fredsbend Again, context and audience matter. If you're having discussions with people that could offend (and/or are offending) them but they're continuing to engage, that's probably okay. If, on the other hand, the other person is feeling uncomfortable or distressed and you keep pressing the point(s), you're probably crossing a line.

@El'endiaStarman This is relevant to Peter's last comment. Technically I might say something that is completely appropriate for the person I'm talking to. But someone else sees it and understands it differently and flags it. So "who I'm talking to" ends up not mattering much.

El'endia Starman

4:05 PM

@Nathaniel This is true. Downside of a public chat room. :)

Y'all can make private rooms and go ham in them if ya want.

Or use a different platform.

@El'endiaStarman @Zoethetransgirl has zero history in this room and was not an intended audience. What you're saying here is apparently not true.

Assuming @Zoethetransgirl is one of the flaggers.

@El'endiaStarman we can't be expected to constantly know what PC is when it constantly changes. It's hard enough to understand our own religions (and respect our differneces)

El'endia Starman

@fredsbend I have no idea why Zoe was came in this room and I won't presume to voice any assumptions as to why. But Zoe is part of the audience regardless now.

Exactly my point. Chat messages are permanent. It's not a spoken conversation.

El'endia Starman

@PeterTurner Heh, political correctness culture is a whole other issue where I even agree with fredsbend on some points he's made here in the past few days. In any case, it's unreasonable to expect everyone to be up to date on what's politically correct and what's not. But what we can do is shift our words in response to issues that come up. E.g. do you know what the "politically correct" term for people who can't hear is? If I then tell you and you continue using non-PC terms...

4:11 PM

@El'endiaStarman Interesting. I suppose that would allow for a freer conversation... but I can't imagine that SE would like it if what is a CoC violation in a public chat room is occurring in a private chat room.

@El'endiaStarman Bah, I read that conversation and I've already forgotten :)

El'endia Starman

@Nathaniel Oh, certainly not. If a mod (and by extension SE) finds out a private room is being used as a hotbed for neo-Nazis, you bet that's getting shut down right quick. That said, private rooms also limit the audience and so there's less, hmm, "surface area" to violate Be Nice.

I think we should be free to go back to being wholly ignorant of trans issues. FWIW, I think I know a lot more about them than they know about Catholicism.

2

El'endia Starman

Oh lookit that timing! CoC update blog post and FAQ on Meta.SE.

@El'endiaStarman Surface area... I like it. Need a real mathematician around sometimes :)

@El'endiaStarman What I certainly don't get with this neo-orthodoxy around being nice is how they come up with an authority by which they generate their rules. Is it the spirit of the age manifest in someones basement (or the anti-christ )

> By adding this update, we want to make it clear that the Code of Conduct requires people to use the correct gender pronouns when someone shares their pronouns or makes them public

I knew it

El'endia Starman

4:17 PM

Here's the part where I say I'm not quiiiite 100% on board with SE's wording or aims. But I am trying to walk the fine line between SE and Christianity.SE in the hopes that the two can at least tolerate each other.

At least y'all can be glad we don't (primarily) use a gendered language like Spanish or German? :)

^ Self-deleted - I am not going to go out of my way to shut down conversations centered around things Christians actually talk about in a way Christians actually talk. And please ping me if people do, I'll take it up with other moderators and ask them to lay off.

El'endia Starman

@PeterTurner This goes for me too. I completely understand both people/Christians in this room talking the way they do and how others can see such statements violating Be Nice. Ideally, if another mod else sees something they take issue with, they'll ping Peter or myself. Realistically, be aware that we do sleep and sometimes problems have to or should be addressed immediately.

@El'endiaStarman I have a feeling that it'd be a lot safer for me to just speak in Spanish at this point. It's a lot easier to avoid pronouns entirely there.

El'endia Starman

@Nathaniel Well, pronouns came up as the issue here because that's how English indicates gender. Languages like Spanish indicate gender in ways other than pronouns and plenty of people have pointed out how that clashes with the push for gender-neutral language. It's a work in progress. :)

4:34 PM

"Progress" isn't exactly the term I'd use, I'm afraid

I'm shocked, shocked that these two questions didn't make the FAQ. meta.stackexchange.com/a/334905/300411

@Nathaniel Turkish (my daily driver) has exactly one pronoun: "o" — works for he, she, it, they, whatever — use it for a ball or your wife or your dog or whatever. There are no other pronouns. Also in many cases, particularly as the subject, leaving it out entirely is okay because it's automatically implied.

There is no grammatical gender at all, not even the half baked leftovers some languages have where some words are typically dealt with as one gender or another (e.g. English ships being "she").

Nice.

El'endia Starman

Okay, I have work I need to attend to. Please don't blow up while I'm gone... ;)

1 hour later…

5:37 PM

It's almost as if they had made up their mind and nothing was going to change, despite all the "discussion"

El'endia Starman

Hey, SE actually did get and incorporate feedback from a bunch of mods. The original proposed change was much stronger.

@El'endiaStarman I suppose that's something. But by all indications, Monica still violates this, and it still compels speech. And now Monica has deleted her post on MSE under duress. Oh to get to 10k on MSE...

El'endia Starman

Yeah, I too am still not totally happy with this.

5:59 PM

So, a minute after I was flagged and chat banned this morning here, I received a moderator message on MSE. The generic "We wanted to let you know that we've observed some rudeness in your latest activity." message.

I really hope they're not related.

I perused by MSE activity and I'm not sure if anything has been deleted.

@fredsbend Will be interesting to see if I get one of those...

@fredsbend I guarantee you they are related.

Yeah, like some people sifting through my activity for the sole purpose of finding something to flag.

The comments on the FAQ are wild. I'm thinking of throwing in my two cents there, but I'll have to work hard to write it, y'know, nicely.

El'endia Starman

On MSE? I know nothing there so I can't comment. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

6:08 PM

What I want to say is something like, "We get it, SE. You're woke. Can you please not try to force the rest of us to dance in your performative wokeness performance?"

@Caleb It can't always be implied as in english, unless you reiterate proper names more frequently.

@Mr.Bultitude Yeah... probably wouldn't last long

> For some time, we’ve been using machine learning to flag comments that might be potentially troublesome in the community, especially if they could be seen as hostile to new users.

So, were my comments on MSE not flagged by people? Were they flagged by "machine learning"?

The whole flagging, mod notice, etc has never helped me learn anything about the people I'm communicating with, the CoC I should not infringe, and (most importantly) which comments to who and how they were "rude, offensive" whatever.

@fredsbend I have no idea if this is true (not a mod power, just speculation), but my guess is that you were flagged by machine learning and your comments were flagged by people.

6:23 PM

And yes, if you are assuming I've been through this before, I have. Like half a dozen times, but never suspended. That doesn't put faith in me that these things are reasoned out before initiated.

That's just my programmer mind trying to get around the obvious problem of language and the easy problem of flesh

@PeterTurner That makes sense. People have flagged my comments. A threshold plus hopefully some machine effort to understand topic (i.e. keyword hits) triggered the auto-script to send me the mod message.

El'endia Starman

I seriously doubt that mod messages would be sent automatically.

Also, I thought the machine learning flagging comments thing was only on SO?

@El'endiaStarman Yes and yes. It's news to me if they are applying that on MSE now too

The posts I've seen were more or less how SO regulars can be more welcoming to newbies

though of course more broad in scope, that seemed to be their focus

6:37 PM

And....Taven on the Meta is suspended.

El'endia Starman

Not surprised.

user image

I'm going to have to disagree with her though ... I understand she's coming at this from a different angle, but just because her particular issue has been worked around I don't think it actually removes the compelled speech issue, it just cleverly disguises it.

@Caleb It really seems to me like her writing style would still be in violation... if "they" is a stated pronoun of someone, she'll have to use it in singular

which I stated in a comment and no one official disagreed

6:53 PM

@Nathaniel Yes, I think it would actually. By my reading of the changes and FAQ (and certainly their implemented interpretation) she is in violation.

Granted I think it's outragious somebody who is a technical writer and has a history of using gender-neutral language and does not write awkward work-arounds could be in violation of a CoC on a platform like this, but if this is the foot that they want to put forward...

So... Hypothetical here, but have you guys ever read this book called Matthew, where there were these two sons and one said he was going to do something, but then didn't and the other said he wasn't going to do something and then did?

> The goal of our Code of Conduct is to help us “build a community that is rooted in kindness, collaboration, and mutual respect.”

Fail. I'm sorry but apparently it isn't just pronouns that need defining these days, I don't see much evidence that people know what "respect" even is.

@PeterTurner That sounds familiar yes.

I've had my response deleted. ONE MINUTE after posting. i.stack.imgur.com/FqTnz.jpg | meta.stackexchange.com/a/334956/212646

Not too surprising. It is kind of off topic for the thread. They have this tagged faq and are soliciting questions about how to implement it. Whether it should be implemented at all is clearly not up for discussion, hence your rant is kind of miss-placed.

@Caleb I guess that's how my post survived?

7:11 PM

@Caleb Well, okay. It's just a line in the sand for me. I hope I don't eventually decide I need to cease SE participation, but for now, it's being dialed back. I'll not be visiting chat, I'll not be visiting metas unless there's a link under a question. I'll be mostly lurking a few main sites. Maybe that will restore my faith in SE as a platform for effectively sharing ideas.

7:29 PM

@fredsbend Oh I understand, it's a line in the sand for me too ... I resigned moderating because I cannot support this direction.

I'll probably still come here as a user. As soon as this hubub dies down 99% of the time nobody will care that I can't actually abide by that CoC and I'll just get answers to my programming questions anyway.

17

Q: It has been a great privilege to serve this amazing community as moderator. Thank you

Today I'm handing back the diamond you gave me in 2011. Some of you will not understand or agree with my reasons for doing so, but the nature of the community we have on this exceptional site leaves me hopeful that, though we may see the world through different eyes, we have real, mutual, respect...

discussion featured

7:46 PM

@PeterTurner Yes, probably. Any if it makes you feel better @fredsbend yours is hardly the only answer in that genre that has been nuked from orbit within seconds of posting.

They pretty clearly aren't interested in anything that says the emperor is wearing his birthday suit.

8:10 PM

Bah I need to stop reading MSE for four hours so that I stop bumping into the comment upvoting daily limit message :)

@Caleb I wondered how many of those we would get.

0

Q: According to the Catholic Church should I address someone who is transgender by their chromosomal sex?

As a Catholic, is it considered an offense against charity to refer to a person in a way they wouldn't want to be referred to (such as calling a trans woman "he") or is it a sin against charity to blithely confirm a lifestyle that the church says is an offense against the Natural Law? (or is ther...

catholicism sin sexuality

So I was keeping these worms warm in my mouth (which is how scouts do it)

Ugh, I'm seeing this comment moderation abuse on MSE too; though not affecting me yet as far as I can tell. But I bet some of it is user-driven with flags, not staff

@Nathaniel there's a flag for "unkind" it, that's a subjective word. I used it today on someone criticizing monica's post so at least it cuts both ways.

@PeterTurner But if several of us band together and all cast "unkind" flags on a single comment, it will disappear, regardless of whether it was kind or not

and regardless of whether staff ever saw it

8:28 PM

@Nathaniel Yes I'm pretty sure the "get 3 of your friends to flag real quick" technique has been used a lot on meta recently and probably around chat too. My comments directed at staff moderation were when whole threads got cleared.

user image

I saw that one and was getting a screenshot. Unbelievable.

This is definitely worse than I expected.

Looks like the answer to @fredsbend's question is a resounding "no"

And... poof.

@Caleb and we get people asking "is there even a religious objection"? Well, there was a religious objection but the objectors have all be vanquished.

hey

@fredsbend was your CoC answer mod/CM-deleted or community or self? Did you get any meaningful response before it got deleted?

"ONE MINUTE after posting.", I guess that's a "no" on the latter question

8:45 PM

Mason's post has been live for a whole 3 minutes.

I'm going to bed.

good night

It's back; maybe it got six user flags

@Nathaniel Shog just undeleted that one in response to my flag saying they were getting out of control.

it was staff deleted then?

@Nathaniel Yes. Unilateral staff deletion something less than 23 seconds after posting.

El'endia Starman

8:50 PM

@Caleb Mason Wheeler?

@El'endiaStarman The very one.

The way the 3 posts right before it got zapped I was standing by to watch it go up in smoke too. Still time for that I guess. Or they can just stonewall all of us on those issues like they've been doing for weeks.

El'endia Starman

@Caleb I was hoping you would link to it, but I found it via our mod room.

No really I need to sleep, this is not healthy to watch any more. For real this time.

@Caleb Good night; get some rest

OK, fredsbend's was undeleted too, then my question is moot. Bye!

8:56 PM

@AndrasDeak I've posted twice on that CoC faq. Caleb rightly characterizes my first post as a rant, and I agree that it's out of place there. I support the deletion. My second post is a question I think the faq needs to answer link. That particular one was deleted for about 20 seconds, so I'm assuming flag count auto-script then mod undeleted, or a mod accidentally deleted it then undid the action immediately.

I see, thanks. I was asking about your latter, I even left a comment under it (deleted now).

El'endia Starman

CMs are probably pretty stressed and frantically trying to manage the question, answers, and comments.

And I don't even mean in any censorship way. Just keeping an eye out for genuinely rude/abusive statements alone would be difficult.

@Nathaniel I didn't even know a comment upvote limit existed until last week. lol

@PeterTurner Does no body like you? Everybody hate you? Keep these worms warm in your mouth.

@PeterTurner I've been flagging as unkind all comments that villainize our position by saying or indicating that we don't believe trans are people. I am quite tired of being painted as some kind of evildoer.

There were quite a few comments under my MSE post on the faq. Two of them I flagged for this, so Shog nuked them, and I thank him for it.

@Caleb I'm convinced this is happening. There's a handful of users flagging like banshees. Is there a script for stopping this kind of behavior? If yes, then at least we can reasonably expect it's not happening, which would be more comforting.

9:16 PM

@El'endiaStarman I'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt for now. It's probably quite an afternoon they're having, hitting refresh on the page every 30 seconds, needed to decided in under 10 seconds if a post is genuine or not. I really hope they're learning their lessen that this was very much not needed and not benefiting anyone.

@fredsbend They might be learning the lesson, but are the higher ups?

Probably not.

Okay, that line is now. Sorry guys, you're most understanding of where I stand on what's going on, but I said there's a line in the sand, as deleted and hidden those words now are, I will stand by them. I'm leaving all rooms and staying out for a while.

@fredsbend Peace, and God bless.

10:09 PM

Here's my question

0

A: Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes

It was repeatedly said be staff in the Teacher's Lounge that treating everyone equally was very important, and even "the rule". That we are not to treat anyone differently because of their gender identity. Is this still true? Why is there nothing about this in the CoC or the FAQ? If it is true,...

@curiousdannii thanks for posting so I can upvote in the critical first 3 minutes of public opinion! (in Scrum, we call this "Anchoring")

But you might not want to mention that this came out of TL

@PeterTurner It's not breaking the rules because I'm paraphrasing. I won't hide that staff said things in the TL

Fair enough, I don't know where the line is in these turbulent times.

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Oct '1910

The Upper Room

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