@KorvinStarmast Hi, I just wanted to follow up on your comment. What has been your experience with reconciling military service with your religious beliefs? This is a subject I've discussed with a few people in my ministry as well, and I've been hearing different responses.

@4castle I was a career navy man who has a very hard time with the philosophical freeloaders who are pacifists and, I guess, JW's. Happy to be protected, unwilling to participate.

My next door neighbor of 12 years is a JW, and we had a few friendly chats about that facet of the faith. I still have a hard time with not being willing to pitch in.

I had no problem with reconciling my faith with my service.

At least the Quakers offered to serve as medics, IIRC they have foresworn violence. (Memory foggy)

@KorvinStarmast That's very understandable. It's upsetting to work really hard on something only to see other people take it for granted. I know for me personally, I'm very thankful that I live in a country with so much regard for religious freedom. I also don't see myself as a freeloader, though. I choose to obey and contribute to society in other ways, whether by educating people on how to live by Bible principles, or by working hard at school, or by being hard-working at my job.

Do you think those things are comparable, or what would you do better if you shared my beliefs?

@KorvinStarmast The reason I make my choice to avoid association with the military is because of the principles at Romans 12:17-21. We don't wish to kill our enemies, we wish to befriend our enemies. I feel that it would be hypocritical for me to help others who are trying to harm my enemies.

@4castle Evil will prosper when good men do nothing. The pacifist freeloads on those who will do the dirty work that they will not; that's one of the general objections to which I mostly agree. that said, I do agree with our country's "conscientious objector" rules and regulations. There is a place for all sorts, under the big umbrella approach.

I don't have to like it, but I'll remind you that we'd be having this conversation in Arabic, if at all, had not Don Juan and the combined fleets fought the Turk/Saracens at Lepanto.

We can discuss again, at another time, I just got summoned to something IRL. Be well.

@KorvinStarmast Ok, I'll try to respond while you're gone

@KorvinStarmast I agree that "evil will prosper when good men do nothing." The problem is that soldiers of every nation think that they are the good men. By what standard, then, should we determine whether we're doing good? I would suggest that God is the one with the authority to set that standard, not me. Jesus gave the simple command to "make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them" and "teaching them" (Matthew 28:19-20). No war can give people true salvation.

@4castle Are JWs actually pacifists, or is self-defense acceptable?

@Nathaniel Self-defense is acceptable, but we would never try to take someone's life

@4castle Hmm, so, in practice, does that mean a JW would never use a potentially lethal weapon (in self defense)?

@Nathaniel It means you would shoot at their legs, and generally try to just get away

Ok, interesting. I've heard people (not JWs) make a distinction between "shooting a gun to stop someone" and "shooting a gun to kill someone." In practice, the most effective way to stop someone happens to mean shooting them in the places that are most likely to kill them, but death would be an unfortunate consequence, not the "reason" for shooting them there.

I'm guessing that that sort of distinction wouldn't really fly

@Nathaniel It's a very tricky subject. In the heat of the moment many people would probably just act on instinct, and there's all kinds of "what-if" situations that would require an individual to weigh Bible principles

I can't really speak for what people would do in any given situation. The general idea is to just stop people from dying

Reason I ask is that I wonder where JWs would draw the line between "self-defense" and "war." For example, if it's okay for a JW to shoot a burglar/murderer in self-defense, would it also be acceptable for him to shoot a burglar/murderer attacking his neighbor? How about if group of three or four families set up a rotating schedule of one of their members acting as the designated defender against burglars/murderers?

Proverbs 22:3 - "The shrewd one sees the danger and conceals himself, But the inexperienced keep right on going and suffer the consequences."

Basically, I think if you accept self-defense, that leads to voluntary collaboration in the defense of a group of people. That's different from "war," which is involuntary (taxes pay for it) and often aggressive (as opposed to purely defensive).

@Nathaniel In my experience, I've never heard of a situation in which a JW needed to collaboratively defend a group of people. A wise person would leave the area as soon as they knew there could be a problem.

So if my neighborhood was being repeatedly threatened, I would leave the neighborhood.

@4castle Okay, fair enough. Most scenarios besides "the neighborhood is going downhill" are rather speculative, but in some cases around the world what that comes down to is living as a desperately poor immigrant seeking asylum in inhospitable countries. But perhaps that sacrifice is worth avoiding the need to defend oneself.

Technically that account isn't in the Bible, just the prophecy, but Josephus records that bit of history (if I remember right)

Yeah, understood. As a member of a materialistic culture I am certainly at risk of overemphasizing the value of my home and possessions.

(and my right to defend them at the expense of the lives of criminals)

Thanks for clarifying the JW position... I share some of its opinions on government and war, but looks like we diverge a bit here.

No problem, thanks for your time.

@4castle You aim for center of mass, 4castle. In most cases that wound can be treated if 911 is called expeditiously. (So say my cop friends). Aiming at the legs is a good way to miss. have you ever handled a firearm?

@KorvinStarmast No, but that's very good to know

So if my neighborhood was being repeatedly threatened, I would leave the neighborhood I am pretty sure that this is anything better than "evil will prosper when good men do nothing." I pray you are never in a position with a fire arm in your hands and the choice of "do I shoot or don't I" confronting you. I don't wish that on anyone.

The whole home defense scenario is a very hard one, for a lot of people.

I'd rather scare them off than shoot. That's why I no longer have a loaded pistol as a home defense piece. I have a loaded shot gun. Got some training from a retired federal officer on "how to not have to shoot anyone" in that scenario. Her advice strikes me as very good.

The cops can't be everywhere. As to war, I'll offer the observation that David slew Goliath in an act of collective self defense of the Hebrews.

@KorvinStarmast With the whole "neighborhood threat" situation, it's an application of the advice at Proverbs 22:3. Therefore, it would be evil to not follow its advice.

We can agree to see it through a different lens. I hope neither of us has to face that. It's hard no matter how it arises.

Not every innocent death creates a martyr.

Regarding those who died and got to meet with Allah, or didn't get to as the case may be, I will face my Creator with a clean conscience on that matter where my participation got them killed.

@KorvinStarmast Why do you say you would have a clean conscience?

Is it from repentance, or do you think it was the right thing to do?

@KorvinStarmast When it comes to David and Goliath (or any account in the OT where the Israelites went to war), I understand that under the context that Israel was God's Kingdom at that time. God gave David the strength to defend his Kingdom. To me, that's different from defending a government today, where God's Kingdom is a part of every nation.