The Upper Room

Caleb

19:00

@TRiG Namely, Calvinisic theology takes you out of control of your own salvation and makes you entirely dependent on somebody elses choice. If you get past that and move on to the fact that the one who makes that choice is abundantly gracious, the lights come on and it starts being not just something lovable, but something much more precious than mans-choice based views.

TRiG

@Caleb Nah. Still freaky.

And, frankly, weird.

wax eagle

@TRiG indeed, but the idea that I don't have to be good enough to satisfy God is absolutely refreshing

Caleb

@TRiG Only if you're still working under the assumption that you and I are intrinsically good.

TRiG

@Caleb I'm a humanist.

wax eagle

@Caleb and this is the crux of the last 2 days of debate on this site :)

@TRiG and therefore you see no need for a savior. Our story starts with God lovingly creating a universe and that universe betraying that love. God's anger burns against the betrayal

TRiG

19:02

I'm not sure that intrinsically good is a useful, or even meaningful, measure. I'd go with intrinsically valuable. Humans are valuable (to humans, which is what we are). Hence we should seek to minimise pain. And there's the basic foundation of a consistent ethical system.

@waxeagle I am not the universe. Collective guilt is not my thing.

wax eagle

@TRiG no one will discount the value of humanity, least of all God who created us in his own image.

@TRiG have you sinned?

even once?

TRiG

@waxeagle I do not accept the terms of that question. I've made mistakes (many). I've hurt people. Sometimes, I've hurt people and failed to apologise. (Which reminds me ....)

I have an apologising e-mail I really should be writing right now.

wax eagle

@TRiG lol tis ok

@TRiG ok one more analogy. You know a bride on her wedding day? her dress has to be perfect, not a blemish right?

TRiG

@waxeagle Nah.

wax eagle

even a little stain would be positively horrifying.

TRiG

19:05

The most interesting people get married in jeans in the middle of a muddy field.

wax eagle

@TRiG :P

TRiG

@waxeagle Purity, as a moral value, leaves me cold.

And that's actually an important philosophical difference.

studiohack

@TRiG that would be fun :P

TRiG

Hang on while I dig up that article.

freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2010/06/22/…

@waxeagle How do you do quotes here?

wax eagle

@TRiG a >

TRiG

19:08

@waxeagle Thanks.

> Human beings, across cultures and throughout history, seem to share a few core ethical values, hard-wired into our brains by millions of years of evolution as a social species. Those values: Fairness, harm and the avoidance thereof, loyalty, authority, and purity. (Some think there may be one or two others, including liberty and honesty; but those aren’t yet as well-substantiated, or as well-studied.)

> Liberals prioritize very different values from conservatives. When asked a series of questions about different ethical situations, self-described liberals strongly tend to prioritize fairness and harm as the most important of these core values — while self-described conservatives are more likely to prioritize authority, loyalty, and purity.

See?

wax eagle

@TRiG I do see

interesting

this is actually helpful

TRiG

It's a philosophical difference which makes your analogy meaningless to me.

wax eagle

it means that certain arguments that are well made in some places are not effective otehrs :) thanks for this

This actually could be as good an explanation as any when asked about why different denominations exist. They choose to emphasize different values

TRiG

@waxeagle Greta Christina is one of my favourite bloggers. She can make anything interesting (even when she recently started writing about fashion, it was still interesting).

She also has a knack of saying things I agree with far better than I ever could.

wax eagle

@TRiG those people are helpful, I've found a few here :)

TRiG

19:13

@waxeagle Aye. I think Marc Gravell is shaping up to be one of those for me.

Caleb

0

Q: What would be the logical consequences of human will/nature being corrupt?

I'm have a question that I don't think is on topic over on Christianity.SE even though it is the exchanges in chat there constantly raise the issue. This is a kind of thought experiment. "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle ...

human-condition

TRiG

My extremely profound response to that question is, You're missing a question mark after what are the logical consequences of such a system.

But yes, it is interesting, and I'll be curious to see what answers appear.

wax eagle

@TRiG same here

Caleb

@TRiG Do you work as a copy-editor? (Edited just to add the squiggle above the period)

TRiG

@Caleb No, but I should.

Caleb

19:23

That's the second single character edit I've made today because of your eyes.

TRiG

I once proofread a thesis on modern Irish church architecture for a friend of a friend.

And my boss gets me to go over his marketing gumpf with a red pen before it's published.

@Caleb My most active SE site is definitely EL&U. Linguistics fascinate me. (And, @Flimzy, my speech on Nicaraguan Sign Language went well.)

TRiG

19:39

Left Behind index: patheos.com/community/slacktivist/2011/08/07/…

8

Q: Is "hate the sin, love the sinner" a Christian idea?

The expression "hate the sin, love the sinner" gets thrown about in both Christian and non-Christian circles, but it does not seem to a bible verse. Is it a biblical concept or just a popular cliche? If Biblical, does it apply to God, men or both? Some say "that's the way that Jesus lived". Are ...

sin love hate

@Caleb. I think the reason I hate that phrase so much is that every time I've seen it used it's been by a hypocrite.

@Caleb Oh, and single character, as a compound adjective, should probably be hyphenated.

Richard

Woot! First question posted on CH.se

Mine was #2.

studiohack

Bibilical Hermeneutics is live - user 12! woot!

Richard

NIce. #15 for me.

a_hardin

bah, i only got 22

that's only 3 better than christianity

studiohack

I'm 100 here. :P

wax eagle

19:55

@Richard #34

lower than my C.SE number :)

and my gardening one too

TRiG

16

Q: Should people be able to change their usernames?

So, you want to change your username to something new. Should an application allow you to do this? Let's say that you have a unique URL that points to your profile. Let's assume it is human readable like /site.com/joesoap/. This makes the SEO gods smile. If you change it to josephsoap all th...

url seo structure

Richard

The first non-SE employee was Mark Trapp.

TRiG

I put a comment on that UX question pointing here.

They were wondering whether people care what their User ID is.

wax eagle

20:16

@wikis I will undelete that answer if you like. Upon reading it a second and third time its more an answer than I gave it credit for being.

Caleb

SE, you're ruining my life.

wax eagle

@Caleb amen to this

studiohack

@Caleb meaning? :P

wax eagle

I'm not going to participate much in that beta, I really can't I joined so I'd have a voice

Caleb

@studiohack Meaning inordinate amounts of time and concentration are being sucked into the world of QnA. There are just too many interesting things here.

TRiG

20:18

@Caleb tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife

user2334

@Richard flexes

studiohack

@Caleb agreed! My first love here at SE was Super User, and still is

TRiG

I can do the tab explosion thing on any site, but some are worse than others. TV Tropes is, of course, the worst, but SE is up there.

BeatMe

20:39

reddit for me ;)

RES with l+c is a nightmare

TRiG

20:54

@BeatMe Reddit is one addiction I've so far managed to avoid. The threaded comments help. I can't cope with threaded comments.

BeatMe

lucky you

TRiG

21:29

By the way, is there any way I can find my own previous chat messages? Back there somewhere, a week or more ago, I posted a couple of links to things I said would make good questions.

TRiG

21:41

3

Q: When a church pastor demonstrates hatred how should Christians treat those from that church?

I was reading this article: http://www.wbbjtv.com/news/local/Assault-Complaints-Filed-after-Incident-at-Church-130746713.html, and as a quick summation, a pastor and two deacons beat up his nephew the nephew's boyfriend, on church property. So, the pastor may preach love (I have no idea), but...

church-discipline hate

I am not a fan of religion.

a_hardin

@TRiG That's not exactly a religion I'd be a fan of, either

@TRiG Have you tried the search? If you know what you may have said, you can try this chat.stackexchange.com/…

TRiG

@a_hardin Our disagreement is probably that I thing the problem is systemic.

Sep 16 at 23:35, by TRiG

But I think a good question (or perhaps many good questions) could be made out of those posts.

TRiG

22:01

@a_hardin Thanks for that search tip.

TRiG

22:33

Stay classy, NOM

towleroad.com/2011/10/…

TRiG

23:26

@Caleb "All sins are equal" is not, I would say, a moral statement. In fact, I would say it is a profoundly immoral statement.

BeatMe

23:43

+1

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