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8:02 PM
@HedgeMage ok, but it's not the flat 3/5 it used to be ok
I get the feeling this is going to be a very difficult site.
@jrista yes it is. there are plenty of people around here who disagree. Even the ones who have fairly similar view points
Biblical teachings and beliefs are so watered down and self-directed/self-supporting these days.
If this site does not take a stance somewhere, draw a line somewhere, and come up with some kind of definition of generally foundational, canonical, biblical teachings.
Then I don't know what the purpose of the site is.
@jrista academic education mostly...but thats the SE model
Yeah, I guess.
Not really sure thats possible though.
On a question I answered, there is another answer that is primarily an opinion, based on a rather lax opinion and watery view of the bible
Thats not really academic...
8:09 PM
@jrista nope, and we are going to have to start killings those. Which question?
Its not backed up with any references or bible verses...but it is a view that more and more people today hold.
@jrista remember that if its not an answer you have 2 good options, downvotes, and if its particularly egregious flags.
So I don't really know where it falls in regards to acceptable answers.
@jrista You have a member of the SE Community Team sitting right here... link it and I'll take a look :)
I did downvote, and I asked for references/bible verses as backup.
@HedgeMage I don';t think its something you guys need to look at. I think its just an example of the nature of this site. Christianity is such a muddy, ephemeral thing that people twist and mold to serve their own purposes. I guess my point is...can this site actually BE academic given that that is the modern nature of Christianity.
8:13 PM
You tell me. :) I will say that so far things are going better than I predicted. How much better and if better will last are yet to be seen.
Yeah, I guess we'll see.
Q: What is the reasoning behind why some Christians believe it is moral to be a homosexual?

PatrickI know this my start a firestorm, so I will be careful here. I believe that the Bible states that homosexuality is immoral. I also believe that it does NOT condemn them to hell (a sin is a sin is a sin), when a person receives Christ in them they are saved and ALL their sins are forgiven. ...

@jrista If the site works as its supposed to (all SE sites really). Those answers you are talking about will move to the bottom and be ignored by general passers by.
Yeah, thats possible.
I am actually expecting my own answer to get down-voted into oblivion on the long run.
@jrista it hasn't yet, and there will be enough conservatives around that it should stay near the top. Note that the user in question hasn't done much scripture citing in their answers, not to say its bad, but I wouldn't expect it to change either.
yeah, I don't expect it to change. But the bold statement at the top really beggs a biblical backing.
8:19 PM
@jrista yeah considering there is direct scriptural refutation. The burden is truly on the folks who think its Ok to prove that the NT passages forbidding it somehow dont apply. Its the same with women pastors IMO...but thats an entirely different debate
that is another interesting debate.
I actually had a question about that myself...thats from Corinthians, right?
A number of years ago, I was trying to help a then-friend of mine start a church. There were several occasions where his wife preached to the whole church, and the verse from Corinthians kept coming to mind.
@jrista yes I believe it is.
I have never really been sure whether her teaching the whole church was right or not, but my inclination, according to Paul's letter, was that it was not.
Their church eventually failed, and I've wondered if I should have said something about it back then.
@jrista yeah I can't really see how it actually is. Other than cultural norms changing. However I don't see that as reasonable justification
@jrista not likely the cause. Many churches do just fine with women pastors.
Well, there is always a reason for the teachings in the Bible. They are included for specific reasons.
8:22 PM
@jrista Agreed
And I don't think the fact that the Corinthians verse being included is simply an outdated cultural thing...I think God has a specific purpose behind having men be the pastors of mankind, and limiting women to teaching women.
I just, don't fully know what it is.
@jrista I absolutely agree. I do however think that sometimes our churches (my denomination in particular) take it too far. I see the basis for no women elders, same as pastors. However Deacons is another matter. There is good solid scriptural evidence that the early church had female deacons)...my denomination doesnt allow them
heh, its a rather convoluted, complicated mess, isn't it
Is it just me or is anyone else having problems with viewing questions on the main site?
the whole of "christianity"
8:25 PM
@jrista yes it is.
@ElendiaStarman Have a specific example?
@ElendiaStarman yup
@jrista Go to the main page and click on any question...
its network wide. It will get fixed in a minute
I have repro on Gardening :)
and RPG...
@waxeagle Ah, I see. Should've checked math.SE too...and yep, it's happening there too. :P
8:28 PM
@ElendiaStarman new deploy. It should fix in a minute
they all seem to work for me
@jrista you must be on a lucky server :)
guess so
maybe it will hit me in a minute
@jrista you can click on questions?
oh gosh. can't wait to read about Blood Trasnfusions and Christianity...taht looks like a VTC :)
8:31 PM
@waxeagle Lol. It's basically an extension of an earlier question that asks if we should wait for God to heal us in faith or go to a doctor...
@ElendiaStarman yeah if its close we should close it as a dupe
@waxeagle I don't think it's quite a duplicate, but yes, it's fairly close.
@ElendiaStarman maybe we just add it to the other one...
@waxeagle Huh. Didn't know that was possible.
I haven't seen the word "general Revelation" show up. That's specially apt.
@ElendiaStarman you can always edit a question to broaden it.
8:34 PM
@waxeagle Well, true. I was thinking of merging the questions and answers together.
@ElendiaStarman um sortof a merge keeps the old question text in tact and moves the answers to the old one.
I've only performed one merge...so I don't know all of the ins and outs, but thats the basics
@waxeagle I see.
I just got an answer on one of my meta questions but I still can't see the question itself! :P
@ElendiaStarman lol yeah apparently if you hit the right server you are ok.
...I see.
[shakes fist in general (but unknown) direction of server]
It works now! Yay! :D
yeah I have not had any problems so far accessing any questions
8:40 PM
@jrista Probably server-specific then.
just popping on for a short time
Okay then.
@jrista in relation to this issue of women in the Church - it was mainly a cultural thing. @ElendiaStarman I'll just leave then :).
@jrista if you read some other things mentioned in the Bible regarding women it is clear that Paul was addressing situations where it is culturally unacceptable for a woman to have that role. However, it is still relevant to us all, in that if a woman has that authority over a man she should remember to be respectful not only of the man's role, but quite frankly, of his ego ;).
@ElendiaStarman I'm gone now. You get your wish :D
8:58 PM
@RolandTaylor nooooooooooooooo.com :P
@RolandTaylor You men and your egos :P
I need someone to stroke mine, please :>
goes through ego-stroking withdrawal symptoms
@RolandTaylor Please try to avoid flagrant offensiveness. I don't appreciate being called "my friend" in the way you did; nor do I appreciate my carefully considered answer being dismissed as wrong out of hand in the way you just did. If we want this site to be a success and not go down into a constant flamewar, we need to respect the validity of each other's opinions.
@RolandTaylor My instinctive reaction to your comment was "stuff this site, it's the same as every Christian forum"
"In the way that I did"...
9:09 PM
You do realize that your answer is mentally insulting to a large majority of us?
I could take you to task on it, but I decided to try to be a bit more nice about how I responded.
If giving my honest opinion about a matter of Christian faith is considered mentally insulting to you, this site is a waste of time.
If that's you being nice...
BTW "You my friend," is not an aggressive way to address someone. It's a way of dissipating one's own anger.
Well, it sounds patronising, and I don't appreciate that.
Then you need to live in my country for a year.
We call people we hate "darling".
Or "Love".
And btw, I was not doing that to you.
If you must know, I'm angry now, thanks to you attempting to turn this into an argument, when all I did was point out a few major flaws in your answer.
Thanks for ruining an otherwise good day.
Oh for goodness' sake.
9:16 PM
Okay. It's the second day of private beta and we're already having this?
To anyone else here (especially @HedgeMage), I'd really appreciate any comments on this exchange. I'll take any criticism -- I was trying hard to do this in a collegial manner.
peeks in
> "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
or perhaps
> Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
Okay, upon reading that post and the comments...
Back, and Hedge I deleted my "offensive" comment.
Thank God for music and self control.
9:19 PM
@RolandTaylor It was very conciliatory of you to delete the comment simply as a courtesy. You didn't have to, but it does lower the drama level a little. The original comment could have been phrased in a less emotionally-charged manner, but the points are valid.
@RolandTaylor: Good idea. Also, you could try and pose some of it as questions, like I did with my Song of Songs comment.
@CRoss: Excellent verses.
@lonesomeday Sometimes you have to have a thicker skin: when you choose to take comments on your content as a personal affront to yourself, you've already lost the battle. We're going to disagree with one another -- we can disagree and recognize that our attitudes toward arguments/ideas shouldn't be personal.
Ahhh... Song of Songs... I read some of those at a school assembly when I was in Catholic school just to watch the nuns get mad and swear it wasn't in the Bible. :D
I am a Christian that others would probably call "liberal", and I hope that this site can have a place for me. If only conservative views are going to be allowed here, we might as well abandon the site already. Frankly I'm pretty close to that point already.
To be clear on something, I am very accustomed to the "highly intellectual", "collegial" manner of handling things. However, I will be frank and say I hate it.

Why? Because it cause us to try to out do each other with eloquence of speech in order to get a point across, alienates the common man, and promotes a kind of subliminal segregation of minds.
Emotions are a part of us, and we'll do better to appreciate that.
@lonesomeday I don't think that his comments were directed at you, or even primarily at the content of that belief -- I think you were getting called out on offering absolutely nothing concrete to support your position.
9:22 PM
@HedgeMage btw, I really wasn't being personal. I was actually speaking as I would to anyone else with the same views/statements.
Well said @Hedge :D
I believe that homosexuality between consenting adults is perfectly acceptable, and I would have downvoted that answer on quality grounds. There are plenty of good arguments for this position -- you just aren't making any of them.
... except that reason is a source of theology as far as my tradition is concerned...
Reason should also not be based on personal leanings.
If you want homosexuality to be okay, you will "reason" it into being so.
However, you might be basing your reasoning on nothing more than wishes.
@lonesomeday Please look up any of a number of great references online about persuasive rhetoric -- you've got something littered with rhetorical mistakes. I agree with your premise, but you know what? You actually help the people who oppose recognizing homosexuality as healthy when you pose such a poorly-reasoned argument in favor of it.
@lonesomeday I'd be happy to help you fix it when I've caught up on my meta posts, if you like.
I remember reading a quote a long time ago (can't find it) that went along the lines of "If you have to convince a man that you're right, he's not convinced.". Thus, I prefer to bring up errors that I see (regardless of whether or not they actually exist) and watch the other person deal with them. Also, I'm always mindful of my wording, so I try to word things in a very...um, how to say it...placatory way.
9:25 PM
For example, the claim that people are born that way. I've talked to some people who are that way, and some who have left. They always say it was a choice.

So, to *reason* on that one and say it is something your nature tends toward, makes no *reasonable* sense.
Well, I could quote Joseph Butler, Duncan Dormer, Jessica Martin, etc, etc, but I have a feeling this site isn't going to be friendly to them, nor to me. Answer deleted. I'm sure I'm not being particularly mature on this but, you know what, stuff it.
Maybe implosion isn't off the table after all...
@lonesomeday in a case like this, you might want to quote the one thing we can agree on. The Bible.
@HedgeMage the problem with sites like this, is that we have something that we can all agree on (in theory), yet people prefer to lean on things we can never agree on, like the writings of some person interpreting the writings of another person interpreting the writings of... you get the point.
If we get a bunch of Theology students rushing here, that's all we'll end up with. People who are going based off of a bunch of "Franky says, and Johny says, and Mitchell says"... Not constructive. (Not saying we don't want Theology students, but you get my point, I hope).
@RolandTaylor and sometimes it's better to not say anything at all
well, I'm going home, catch you later
ttyl @CRoss
9:30 PM
Seeya @CRoss!
@HedgeMage I have a feeling you should ban me for this site to survive :)
bye all
@RolandTaylor While I agree that starting on your common ground (the Bible) is a good strategy in general, the correct application of logic to the matter, and/or information on how something has been documented/interpreted in other contexts can help inform that, too.
"If it feels good, it must be good" doesn't fly in my tradition, and we are far more sexually permissive than most of Christianity.
@RolandTaylor [snort] No, you just need to moderate what you say a bit better. Also, so you just made a mistake. Does that mean you shouldn't take advantage of learning from it? I'd think the community wouldn't want to lose a potentially valuable member.
@ElendiaStarman I'm pretty sure he said that in humor.
@HedgeMage Yeah, but it can be hard for one to tell on the internet... >.>
Also, better safe than sorry! :D
[provides phantom Bible verse to support that]
9:36 PM
@HedgeMage: Were there any other sites that proved to be difficult to manage ()like this one) but made it through beta?
@ElendiaStarman Hezekiah 4:12 works for that doesn't it? "Thou shalt be cautious in all that thou shalt do, lest though slip into regret."
@NathanWheeler Nice find!
@ElendiaStarman One: Parenting.
The writing I mentioned needing to finish is on this very topic. Parenting came up with very good templates for approaches/behavior to deal with much of what you are facing now.
@HedgeMage Fantastic.
Wait...is that a phantom Bible verse? I can't find it... o.O
Although "Hezekiah" is familiar...
9:44 PM
If I knew where my Bible got packed when I moved, I'd even throw in some amusing quotes. Sadly, the crate of "books of various religious and spiritual stuff" is in a big pile in my basement somewhere.
@HedgeMage Just use BibleGateway. :P
@ElendiaStarman It doesn't have all the ones good for backing arguments or making people take themselves less seriously highlighted.
@ElendiaStarman I spent most of high school winning arguments with my theology teachers, who didn't always grok what they were teaching as well as I did (and none of whom were skilled in rhetoric)
@HedgeMage: Hah, good points.
@ElendiaStarman yes...
@NathanWheeler Thankfully I thought to look for it rather than blindly accept it... >.>
Also, the reason I went looking for it is that it was in KJV, and I prefer NIV or NLT... :P
9:53 PM
@ElendiaStarman I mentioned Song of Songs earlier... one of my most amusing moments in high school was when a friend of mine and I were supposed to choose something from the Bible to read before a sex ed. seminar -- we pulled some stuff from Song of Songs and got accused (by a nun, no less!) of reading some soft-core porn that wasn't in the Bible.
Hilarity ensued as I pointed out to the principal exactly what we'd been reading and what the other nun did.
@ElendiaStarman LoL... yeah
@HedgeMage same here... needless to say, I spent a lot of time in detention...
[chuckles] The Song of Songs is so useful for that isn't it? :P
Our principal was quite fair-minded. As long as I was right I didn't get punished.
@HedgeMage In that case, just add "or 1 == 1" to the end of everything you say! :D
I wish I hadn't missed @RolandTaylor I kind of wanted to finish our discussion from earlier.
10:06 PM
That reminds me of an optical illusion called "The Love of Dolphins" that was drawn in such a way that if you didn't have a dirty mind *at all* (e.g. a young child) you would see nothing but dolphins playing. Otherwise, what you saw was significantly different...
Apparently, this optical illusion was on display one time and a group of nuns saw it. When they asked the artist to take it down, the artist told them that what they saw depended on their prior life experience... :P
Well, shoot. I was trying for the Vox Populi badge, but it tells me that I've hit the daily voting limit...with 38 votes. o.O
ooh, you probably have two left
the total is 40 but some of them are usable on questions only, not answers
So try voting on some questions :)
Nope...doesn't work... O.o
Downvotes might though. Time to go find bad questions... :P
10:24 PM
Nope; downvotes don't work either. As I expected...
10:35 PM
very weird... maybe it's different for private beta, or maybe the number is cached somewhere and you used all 40 already, or maybe the number changed
[shrugs] My best guess is that if a question or answer disappears, your votes go with it. Thus it is entirely possible that I lost two votes that way although the site still kept track of how many I had made...
@HedgeMage The counter in the user drop down thing is fruity. It is that way on all the SE sites, and might reflect the fact that some downvotes were not counted in the display thing but where in the real tally, or deleted qestions that haven't released their counters.
Interesting. I guess I'll probably try again "tomorrow" (which happens in an hour).

But, for now, I'm gonna take a nap. :P
@ElendiaStarman i thought everything reset on Stack Exchange local time, not users' local time?
@HedgeMage That is correct. Locally, "tomorrow" doesn't happen for another 5+ hours.
10:43 PM
@ElendiaStarman Strangely the display counters for several things on SE sites differ from the actual API that does the lifting. You can see things when you hit the rep cap as well. You earn points up to the full rep cap but the display counter will show you below the line if you have done any downvoting.
@Caleb Well...I haven't done any downvotes whatsoever, so that can't be it...
when in doubt, I tend to blame caching... I can ask our coders if any are around, though
@HedgeMage Nah, don't bother. This site is so new that it's actually easy for me to make attempts at Vox Populi. Especially because I understand practically everything unlike math.SE... :P
@ElendiaStarman You might find the badge shows up anyway. Remember they are awarded when the computers get around to calculating them and are not directly triggered by actions on the site.
lol @ElendiaStarman
true @Caleb
10:50 PM
@Caleb Interesting...I got the Suffrage badge rather soon after I hit 30 votes. Perhaps I just had good timing? :P
@ElendiaStarman Either that or you did something that triggered a rep recalc
@HedgeMage I guess. [shrugs]
Okay, I'm really gonna go take a nap now. :P
Seeya @HedgeMage and @Caleb!
bye @ElendiaStarman
11:39 PM
@HedgeMage on the voting thing my observations suggest that if you cap out before you vote on at least 10 questions you won't be able to vote any more at all...
I am really tempted to start VTCing anything with the phrase "what are the differences" in the title.
@ElendiaStarman Your votes are simply a summed total tracked in total and daily. The relationship between votes and users is there, but not used in real-time. There is a tool that you can use to recalculate that kind of stuff...I have not used it in some time and I don't remember what the URL is.
@jrista its just site.stackexchange/reputation or in our case christianity.stackexchange.com/reputation

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