It makes it seem like the female gender is the one who's tempting the "oh so self-controlled man"

Which is like

So far from reality

"you can't wear tanktops because it could make the male students uncomfortable"

It's like out the other end of the scale

"and they definitely shouldn't be responsible for controlling themselves"

Yes "don't wear that because you are making men unable to control themselves"

"boys will be boys"

smh

all of this makes me want a beer

"boys will be boys until those boys grow up to be CEOs accused of harassment but they get to get away with it because they have money"

urf

barf

But it's okay, "boys will be boys, right?"

you know that is the first thing my parents were worried about?

What?

I am the nerdiest person ever... and their response to me was "when you are at nightclubs be careful because you might get assaulted"

My brain went "uh..? wait, I was confused at 'nightclubs'..."

ick

Hahaha

like seriously? all those D&D games I played on the streets

>.>:

those skeevy D&d games yo

dangerous

<leaving for dinner>

that math study group culture is pretty lewd

You might get assaulted gray. Gotta be careful

i remember some guy in my class complaining about how it's "scary" to date nowadays because what if a woman accuses you of harassment and ruins your career, and i'm like.... buddy, here's a crazy idea, maybe don't harass women??? it's kinda easy to not harass people????

Lmao

Like

like just..... communicate with them and get consent??? it's easy????

Ever thought of "treating the girl properly"?

Maybe

You know if we could stop the misogyny... a lot of other prejudices would ease up -.-;

Don't try to hit on her on the first date?

51% of the population, fellas -.-;

@Graylocke Hehe, there's a running joke in my school (because it's predominatly Asian) and it's "the only gangs around here are study groups"

@PrinceNorthLæraðr Better be careful then! :P

@Sciborg My best friend who's a girl and is into like compsci stuff told me she almost smacked a guy when he said "You're a minority girl in a STEM field? That's so free"

And she had the best retort

She's like, "Yeah, because that's historically been the winning combination"

I was dying when she told me that

lmao

(though asians in STEM isn't exactly a minority -_-;)

There is a great talk from a pure mathematician about "what use pure mathematics is in society"

it just baffles me how some men need to have the concept of "hey maybe don't be sexist" patiently explained to them

and "hey maybe ask consent"

and she comes up with some beautiful uses for modelling in some of the areas we have been talking about

@Sciborg What's consent? Never heard of it

:p

(being sarcastic)

I highly recommend (sorry for spam)

i thought it was cute when i was first dating partner and he asked "is it okay if i hold your hand when we go out, i don't wanna make you uncomfortable, you just let me know what you're okay with" and i thought to myself oh my god, this man is asking consent to hold my hand, he is a keeper :p

I love how one woman comes forward with an allegation that the guy uh unwantedly approached her, and they're just like "LIES LIES THEY'RE TRYING TO RUIN MY REPUTATION THESE DARN WOMEN CAN'T TRUST EM"

(speaking of asian women in stem and about privilege, racism, sexism, rights, etc.)

"THESE DURN WOMEN AND THEIR COMPLETELY VALID ACCUSATIONS AND FACTUAL EVIDENCE"

@Sciborg Awr <3

@Sciborg "THEY'RE WOMEN THEY MUST BE LYING BECAUSE THEY'RE ACCUSING A GUY"

@Graylocke this is neat!! will give it a watch later <3

"ACTUALLY IT WAS THE WOMAN THAT UNWANTED APPROACHED ME"

smh

correction from earlier, i may need two beers

But denying men's right to be sexist is sexist! or something... I never really understood it tbh

Ah yes. Not letting guys be misogynistic is sexist

Not letting men act like a*holes is sexist. Yes

Yeah - like being told you can't be racist is being racist

"Don't be anti-Semitic, dude." "That's racist against me"

"HOW DARE YOU ENDANGER MY FREEDOM TO BE A D*CK"

or being told that other people don't need to believe in your personal brand of religion is a lack of religious freedom

it's like... no... all of these things are the opposite of what you are saying -.-;

"religious freedom means everyone must believe in my religion or else"

@Graylocke Ugh. My Bible study teacher is also a big advocate of separation of church and state

but that is the same attitude as the one for sexism, racism, queerphobia, transphobia, etc.

He's like "historically when the church got in bed with politics, the baby that popped out was corruption"

as long as it is my freedom, then it is freedom... if anyone else is free to be different to what I like then my freedom is being impinged upon?

@Graylocke Hehe, how about reverse-racism though

The thing I worked out early on is that everyone has a right to an opinion, but not everyone's opinions are equally valid.

And the sooner people realise that they aren't the expert in other people's lives the better.

"Allowing schools to have more diversity? Racist. Giving scholarships to African-American students because they're historically at a disadvantage. Racist. How come I don't get a scholarship for being white, huh?"

bleh, don't even get me started on the whole "okay but what gender are you REALLY"

I can prove the first statement: "When was the last time you asked your hairdresser to fix your car?"

Ha!

Don't get a man to talk about women's rights. Don't get a white guy to define racism. Don't get a straight guy to talk about sexual diversity. etc. etc. etc.

anywhom </soapbox>

yeah, there are some topics i just know i am not qualified to speak on. i know i'm not qualified to speak on not being white, so i don't. etc

i do not have that life experience and that is okay. that's the point of being human

exactly -.-; it is fine to not be the expert on something -.-;

i try my hardest to support people in those causes and be an ally, but i am not part of that culture and that's okay! it doesn't mean i can't support their cause

but there is this big push to not trust experts... because they are plotting against you somehow... (eyeroll) only because the kinds of people who spread that kind of message are the kind who would do that

tailhugs a borg

I think we are still in violent agreement ;p

@Graylocke I mean, I am a cis guy, but you know, but I can still be a feminist (well sort of. There are like a couple of policy-political stuff I disagree with). But like, saying "women need equal pay at work" isn't feminist, it's just... what it should be

"i'm a feminist because i am not an asshole" is the best way to look at that sometimes, like.... equal pay is just how it should BE :p

Agreed! You can have an opinion! Anyone can! But we are also not the ones who get to make the decisions at the end of the day :)

I guess I am a "feminist" because I believe in equality? It's not a word I usually use to describe myself though?

@Sciborg Right. Like why does feminism have to be associated with Elizabeth Caty Stanton where she's like "ALL MEN ARE COMPLETE A*HOLES AND ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING WRONG WITH SOCIETY AND MEN DON'T DESERVE TO EXIST" like... we're just asking for gender equality and like no-no to sexual harrassment

I am a "humanist"? In that I don't really think there is a kind of person who is "better" overall >.>;

It's not a "radical left" thing, it's just a "that's how it should be" thing

it's okay to be hesitant to use the word feminist, it has some weird connotations because some extreme people made it weird. maybe you can be "pro-gender equality" instead :D

Yeah. I wouldn't use the word "feminist" on myself either

Agreed - I don't even see why you can't be conservative and have the viewpoint that the best person for a job is the one who is most qualified for that specific thing.

I finish dinner and y'all are still talking

Why is pointing out a flaw in society and asking for change considered like... bad?

^^; sorry

we are having a good vent about how gender equality is important

And racial equality

that too

really a person-level equality would be nice...

Did you get to ablelism yet?

the point being: everyone is valid and important and deserves rights

anything that isn't... is kind of saying that some people aren't persons... >.>;

@bobble Ugh, I have WAY too much experience with that

@bobble not yet but there is a rant I am only partially connected to -.-;

You do not know the number of people who look at my condition and just assumes I can't do any physical activity

Ableism is a bit personal

i don't consider myself too qualified to speak on ableism because i'm not disabled, so i will leave this one to you <3 (...or i guess if i am disabled it's in a very complex and invisible way)

Also, seriously people? Why are you complaining that gender-wage gap doesn't exist or color-wage gap doesn't exist? Even if it didn't exist, maybe you should still look at it because people are hurting?

Here's my hot-take on any issue that comes up regarding race or gender. Let's take systematic racism. Some people say it exists, some people say it doesn't exist

Well, clearly, people are hurting, and clearly, A LOT of people are hurting from it. It doesn't hurt to try to address it and maybe look into it because people are hurting?

Like say it doesn't exist, well, there are still people who are hurting from said-racism, so do something about it then

Anyhow, ableism. Because hooo boy

I can't join the fighting military because I don't have an arm

Or actually

There is a shocking number of activities that require being in control of your muscles. Not even just a requirement to have a body part, not even just problems if you're paralyzed, etc. But things like moving around under my own power. Not hurting myself when I don't mean to. driving

I'm not sure if I'm able to join the military period

My problem with ableism is "You haven't even let me prove myself to you before you just assume I'm incapable"

Or the "physical problems equal mental problems" which is cringeworthy.

But that's not what people think of for tics. The public face is "funny" tics. None of my tics are funny unless you're going for dark humor.

Tics definitely aren't funny

People just seem to assume tics are like you twitching your face or something

@Graylocke Ugh, yeah

I've seen them used for slapstick and... just. couldn't.

@Graylocke My therapist I worked with for a while had muscular dystrophy and was in a wheelchair... but also one of the smartest and friendliest person I knew

I don't feel as knowledgeable as any of you three about any number of things... ^^;

QED

proof by example

Lol

do you have a subject you'd like to Gray-Vent about? :p

Hm

One problem with tics is from the outside they can look like voluntary movements. You can't tell that I'm fighting with all my mind to stop hitting myself on the head. People just see "haha, someone hitting themself on their head"

I can stop the tic rant for now

no, we're all ranting - please rant <3

No - I think it is a fair thing to rant about... <3

Tic ranting is fair

What hurts the most is looking back over media I liked and cringing at some of the jokes I laughed at before

yeah, too many books make jokes out of tics

I don't really have anything to vent about that affects me in any serious way, anymore. Other than vicariously through the people I care about being hurt.

Someone's being puppeted against their will? OH LOOK HOW FUNNY, SEE THEY DID A STUPID THING

@Graylocke the only rants i really have in me at any given time are Gender Equality Rants, Gay/Trans Rants and Social Awkwardness Rants

I think one thing that's really annoying actually is people assuming I'm like smart because I'm Asian

I don't know. It's like

@bobble That must really be... annoying and scary...

Positive stereotypes are annoying too, people.

for sure, the Asian thing was one i saw a lot even in college with otherwise educated people who should know better

@PrinceNorthLæraðr The fact that you are both is beside the point.

It's the assumption that bothers me. Like, it feels objectifying my worth to being "smart"

absolutely yeah. it's just as objectifying and bad as negative stereotypes sometimes

Oh of course, I was just pointing out that I considered you smart before what... a time measured in minutes ago... in which I found out that you were asian ;p

Teehee. I'm Korean. Some users already know :P

That doesn't at all change my opinion of you being smart ;p

I hate when people are like "so would you rather assume you're dumb?" And I'm like, "no, I'd rather you not assume at all"

yes!

"just like..... treat me as a person??"

agreed ;p

Exactly

hence my request to be treated as "they", with no assumption about who I am romantically interested in, or any other random things you might want to throw in there.

my irritating thing is when people insist that they don't discriminate, but then i am politely asked to take down a pride flag i have in my office because it shows up in zoom calls and might "offend" people

@Sciborg the frick

that Aussies all drink beer constantly, are tanned and muscly and spend all day on the beach in cork-hats battling giant spiders? I dunno. some stereotypes are weird.

@PrinceNorthLæraðr i wish i was kidding, yeah

@Sciborg ya what?

That would NOT happen at my work.

it's all micro-things, it's not that people openly discriminate - it's just that they politely do little things

@Sciborg If it offends someone... isn't it kind of that person's problem who's being offended? It's like saying "Oh, please take down your pro-Semitic flag, it might offend some of our Neo-Nazis in the Zoom call"

Like

What???

-.-;

yeah. but it's just.... dumb stuff like that happens

little things

One thing that's happened to me was, people see tiny Asian girl ticcing and assume I'm "fragile" and need coddling, cooing, help, etc. WHEN I AM THE ONE WHO KNOWS WHAT I NEED. If I wanted your attentions I would ASK, for goodness sake

you go out with your boyfriend and hold his hand on the table and some old man gives you dirty looks

A comedian had a sketch about an "unbiased" reporter talking to a scientist about the space station and then having to interview another guy who believed something like "space is a painted carpet" for the sake of "balance"

@bobble eek, that would make me so mad

@Graylocke it's not even funny because it's accurate :p

@bobble :/ yeah that used to frustrate my ex... who I admire greatly even still.

"here is an actual scientist and here is some lunatic we found raving in a bathroom, we shall now present their viewpoints as equal"

Because exclusionary viewpoints need to be balanced against inclusionary ones..?!

Hehe, that makes me think of flat-Earthers

i have been slowly pouring myself more and more beer throughout this conversation

North, I assume you have stories as well of people assuming they know what help you need from your assistance

@Sciborg You have no idea how long it took me to be brave enough to do that anywhere at all -.-;

@Graylocke we still get nervous about it because of how much crap we get about it sometimes :(

@bobble Actually, most everyone who knows me know I'm pretty independent, so they don't really ask

I think random people just know

And you know, if they don't know, it feels good to prove them wrong :P

Oh! another amazing one - my friend who stutters. That always goes well.

oh my lord, stuttering. i had a very close friend who stuttered and he would just make me cry with the crap people put him through on a daily basis

I have troubles with some sounds close together or at too high speeds, usually I try to work around them

I think really there are two kinds of people... those who have any kind of empathy or understanding or ability to relate to other people... and those that seem oblivious to how other people feel at all. And I think that is a learned trait...

i stutter a little bit when i get flustered and i've just learned to take a breath and reset my brain for a second to snap out of it. but i know for people with a stuttering disability you can't really do that

@Graylocke preach

And I say this having lived with someone with Asperger's who does have difficulty understanding other people's emotions but compensates for it

@Graylocke Definitely. I've learned that empathy sadly seems to come the most quickly when you go through something tragic or emotionally distressful

I could explain my theory that encompasses all this

autistic people can absolutely have empathy even if they struggle sometimes to read emotions - a lot of times they actually have too much empathy and suffer secondhand pain from watching embarrassing things on TV, etc.

But I get very boring on these things :P

i love reading mirror neuron theory because it provides a great basis for how non-NT people experience empathy differently and maybe even more strongly than NT people

NT?

neurotypical

I see NT and I think Myer-Briggs personality test -_-;

I'm an INTP :P

HOLY CRAP I'M AN INTP TOO :D

INTP BUDDIES

Eyyyy

Now I can joke about all the INTP memes on Reddit :P

usually i get either INTP or INTJ, but they're pretty similar :p

I actually think that everybody wants to belong... that's the real secret to all of this.

@Sciborg Actually, they're pretty different -_-;

But the beauty of the MBTI test is that it never means you're 100% of a certain type

I border between INTP/INFP

yeah. i spill over into both

Yup. That's me with the T/F trait

what's cute is that my brother got the Protector (i forget the letters) which perfectly describes him

i love when it is literally the perfect fit

@Sciborg Uhh INFJ?

I know them by the actual letters lol

No, protector is ISFJ

I think

i think it was ISFJ yeah - i just remember he got the results and i looked and was like "yup this is you"

My impression of that test is the time my school made everyone take it and then listed it careers associated with each type

ew

Did not like it

bleh

Huh

I definitely do not fit into the INTP career choices

hey Anko :P

please ignore our giant rants about ableism/sexism/etc

Hey!

I am a composer/debater at heart :P

Anko!

North!

@Sciborg on the contrary I find them quite interesting

They are not talked about very often where I'm from

We were discussing how Hollywood struggles to portray gender and then we just got into related topics about how society struggles with racist constructs, etc.

My favorite from that "lesson" was when they asked everyone which career out of their list they would pick, and one kid just looked through all the careers for "which one gets the most money" and declared he would be a CEO

@bobble Ha!

(I have a problem with personality tests because I have different ones when I need to >.<)

This was all very cathartic, actually :p

good to have a nice vent sometimes

this is only tangentially related, but a while back some people filed reports against Netflix India officials because one of their movies showed two people of different religions kissing

for real? wow

so you can see how far off are we are from having gender-discussions

@Sciborg yep

that is... definitely not ideal

yeah

i have not been to India so i'm not really sure about the social climate there

wow

(... I honestly think I change depending on who I have been talking to...

@Graylocke (very common with introverts <3)

@Ankoganit I talk to my team at work about these things :) They are both from India.

@Graylocke I see

@Sciborg For example - I just got INFP - the Mediator. which seems heavily coloured by Ink.

Ah :p

I got INTJ a while back

A lot of internet ppl seem to be Ns

I'm basically 50-50 in T-F and like 55-45 on E-I

it doesn't surprise me especially that a puzzling site would be heavily biased towards INTP/INTJ

Yeah

we tend to like puzzles :p

I mean - this discussion also changed mode between T and F... I'm not sure I really like this scheme as much as some others I have done tbh ;p

One thing I like to do is like analyze people... and I do it a lot through MBTI -_-;

I think bobble, for example, is an INTJ

Maybe ISTJ

bobble is definitely INTJ, that would not surprise me

or potentially INTP like me, maybe

Nah, bobble is too organized for INTP

is quietly offended :p

Are you saying you want me to take it

You could? You don't have to

(curls quietly and pretends to work for a bit) ^^;

i am deeply offended that you would insinuate i am not organized, now if you'll excuse me i have 99 unfinished projects to attend to

My apologies :P

i would actually be really intrigued to see where bobble falls

my money is on INTJ

me too

second choice ISTJ for sure

Right now I am finishing up bunny pillow, will take test later

I could also see INFJ

@bobble It does take like 30-ish minutes, so no worries

if this ain't bobble.....

hehe

Scratch that: I AM TAKING PICTURES OF FINISHED BUNNY PILLOW

ooooh

Wow :)

Yay!!!!

Also tangent note: it amazes me that Jim Crow laws and all these civil rights movement and stuff happened only 60 years ago

Like

It's so weird to think about that

Awwwww

That's amazing!!!!!

nice!

I need to procure some fluff to put inside the pillow

awesome!!

where is the official test link?

<3 <3 <3

@bobble i don't know how official this is, but 16personalities.com/free-personality-test is one

16personalities is the best one i've found yeah

that's the one I used at least

that's the one I just did a moment ago ;p

I remember why I don't take personality tests very often

I have trouble understanding my own emotions and wants and now you want me to quantify them?

I'll try...

Ah

warning: it's pretty long

I get that :)

some of the questions I am like "but but but... what mode am I in? Is this about what I do with my life things? or work life things? or ..."

it is tricky, yeah. you don't have to do it - we were just curious what personality type you would be <3

> You often rely on other people to be the ones to start a conversation and keep it going.

and some questions are just ambiguous

what if I rely on other people to start the conversation but can keep it going fine?

that could be a "mildly agree"

MBTI is not something psychologists all take very seriously

so don't fret about getting these exactly right

> You are very affectionate with people you care about.

heh

affectionate word-wise or physically?

and does it matter if I mean it?

generally both, and it implies you mean it

I can do a very good Dutiful Daughter who has the perfect amount of affection, but I do not want to

that can be a "disagree"

And family or friends?

I am more truthfully affectionate with friends than family, because I have to be with family or I get in trouble

maybe a "sometimes" then, since it varies for you depending on your situation.

I don't think there is a 'sometimes'

But then do family fall under "people I care about" at all?

it's just varying degrees of agreement

ah, so then maybe "mildly agree"

there's a neutral option

MBTI is usually "what is the general action you'd take in most and all circumstances"

> You often find it difficult to relate to people who let their emotions guide them.

what if I find it difficult to relate to people, in general?

Then pick "strongly agree" or "agree"

> When looking for a movie to watch, you can spend ages browsing the catalog.

am I with other people, or not?

Nah

It's just saying "when you're looking for movies"

> If you make a mistake, you tend to start doubting yourself, your abilities, or your knowledge.

how did they read my mind

Lol same

> You would never let yourself cry in front of others.

who are "others"?

friends? family? classmates? randos?

probably all of them

> When it comes to making life-changing choices, you mostly listen to your heart rather than your head.

when I do "heart" choices they tend to change my life more than "head" choices, but that's because "head" choices end up choosing the status quo. So there's an opposite causality here

oof

@bobble that sounds familiar

like joining this site. would I have chosen to do so, logically? probably not. was I intentionally making a life-changing decision? no.

But was it life-changing? :P

i got friends!

:D

:D

<3

Other

<3

yay!

> ISTJ-T

'borg wins

WOOOOO

Called it!

ooh, nice

well actually, North called it too :P

15/19/60/64/21

> Logistician friends are not spontaneous. They are not talkative, or particularly playful in their affection. What Logistician friends are is loyal, trustworthy, honorable and dependable. Others may come and go with the ups and downs of life, but Logisticians stay by their friends’ sides no matter what, with a deepness of commitment that other types may not even believe is possible.

I am obviously not one to judge what kind of friend I am

You're a great friend :D

Yeah, I remember now

I'm tired :P