Here There Be Dragons

12:24 PM

Yep, and after further research, my opinions on tourism and fishing have changed.

TOurism and Diving is still an issue as well. Too many divers, like hikers, don't respect where they are. Humans, we're the worst.

4:18 PM

@Someone_Evil I am not sure we need that room anymore. No one from rpg.se is really using it, and others are using it for purposes not intended and that may be spreading false information.

A: Impose a re-entry delay on users kicked out of a chat room

4:29 PM

And at this point, I am going to lock it down to only RPG.SE users. I'd prefer if Lili didn't enter, although I know they can as a mod.

Which begs the question, can I kick-mute a mod?

bobble

59

This has been implemented now. The short story is: room owners can kick abusive users, who will then be banned from re-entering the room for a certain time. Of course you want not just the short story but all the dirty details, so here they are: In the user popup that appears when you click on ...

> Who can be kicked?
A room owner can kick any user (including other room owners) from their room, provided all of the following are true:

1. The kickee has spoken in this room within the last 24 hours.
2. If the kickee has previously been kicked from this room, they have spoken again after said ban was over.
3. The kickee is not suspended.
4. The kickee is not already kick-banned from this room (this also pretty much follows from 2.)
5. The kickee is not a moderator.

A: What recourse do I have if I believe a moderator has abused their privileges?

#5 :(

JohnP

4:47 PM

@NautArch - I suppose we could test that, create a room and see if you can kick-mute me from it.

@NautArch - Although, according to Shog's post that was an existing restriction. I suppose if a mod is being abusive, reporting it up is the only option.

bobble

158

If you have a dispute with a diamond moderator, your options are: Make a post on the relevant per-site meta regarding the action taken, which will allow the community to discuss it. You can access the site's meta by using the site switcher in the top right corner: click the "meta" link there to...

5:07 PM

@NautArch Yeah, I'm not sure that we will be needing it either, but I'd rather avoid the look of shutting down the room to favour one side of an argument. Just to try to limit aggravation (which would no one any good), if nothing else

@Someone_Evil I'm fine waiting a bit and just keeping it locked except for whom we allow.

BUt if outside mods don't honor that, then I guess we can escalate if necessary.

And if not, we can just keep it around.

6:34 PM

@NautArch I have confronted you about this issue in this chat room to avoid making unnecessary melodrama, but you did not answer me so I have to do it here. I have posted only one chat message since you have locked the room for unapproved users, just ...

@NautArch ...a few minutes after it has been locked, and I have clearly explained why -- I started typing my message before you locked the room, and after finishing I hit [Enter] to send it. Shortly after, I noticed that you have locked the room and did not post any more messages since. On the other hand, the way you are presenting this issue here clearly shows that you are intentionally omitting these important details in order to, de facto, accuse me of abusing my privileges. ...

@NautArch ...I have already warned you to be careful with your words, and now I will be pursuing my available options of holding you liable and accountable for intentionally spreading misinformation about my actions, as well as for your own actions; we need to have this to be looked into because I strongly suspect you have repeatedly abused your privileges as a "room owner" via selective removal of other people's chat ...

@NautArch ...messages at your own whim; supposedly according to "policies", while in fact you were not holding yourself up to your own standard, up to which you are holding other people. SE chat service is not your property, nor any of the chat rooms are - having a title of "room owner" is not equivalent of having the right to selectively silence all those who do not share your worldview.

6:49 PM

@lila for the record, I saw your messages here, and before reading them I scrolled up to catch up on the transcript. Nothing NautArch said here made me think you're being accused of any wrongdoing. They mentioned that some people were misusing a room (not even specifying a room, although I have a guess), and that they don't want you to enter the locked room. I figured there was obvious history to this elsewhere. But at least the things NautArch said here didn't put you in any bad light.

I haven't investigated other rooms (or even check if my guess for the corresponding chatroom is correct), and there's obviously some baggage between you. I'm only saying that their messages here don't seem defamatory to me at all.

7:01 PM

@AndrasDeak Hi, thank you for your response, I greatly appreciate any objective voice and insight of any non-involved observer. I understand what you are saying, but I suppose I am just more attuned to the implicit context being created by the messages posted here, and I am not happy about it. I might need some time to think about more detailed response to your message, sorry for that.

Mithical

@lila Can I recommend taking a step back and taking a deep breath? This conversation seems to have devolved into accusing each other of things and has spilled into other chat rooms. Please remember that Room Owners are in a way much like moderators; they're responsible for keeping the room clean and friendly. Removing messages is part of that. This has needlessly escalated far past where it should have.

As a next step, wait a bit and maybe have a chat with a local RPG mod (in TL would be great, IMO). Figure out where this went off the rails and how it could have been avoided.

@Someone_Evil Hi, thanks for your insight; however, I am afraid that it's exactly how it looks like right now, at least in my opinion.

@lila I'm going to heavily advice against this as a tact. I can understand being upset, but threatening like this is only going to antagonize. That's not helping anyone. I think there are things to learn and articulate from this, but starting that is nigh meaningless without foundational mutual respect

@lila I can understand that perspective, but I'll repeat mine and Mithical's words, take a deep breath first. I'd be willing to chat with you (and with Naut for that matter) if you feel up for that. I'll leave it up to you where.

7:16 PM

@Mithical I understand, thanks for your message and insight. I think you are right about the role of room owners, but this is also where this disagreement seems to come from -- it is because I do not see selectively-applied policies of message removal as "friendly and clean", but ...

@Mithical ...quite the opposite. If room owners are a lot like moderators, then consequently they should, among other things, "lead by example". Not holding oneself up to one's own standard, up to which one is holding other people, is the exact opposite of "leading by example".

@Someone_Evil Oh big thanks, yes I would greatly appreciate that you could chat with us in order to resolve the issue and make sure it does not happen again.

@lila sure thing

Let me open be claiming the belief that a conversation doesn't break down like it did here unless something has gone awry on both sides. I'll try to stick to generalities as much as possible

Then also the room context, which is what most of the outside chat (including above) relates to, CvCZ was created as a specialized containment room (you may note that the current room is also that, albeit not specialized) for RPG. It's partially served that, but also played host to a touch more. Generally not a problem, unless it starts needing moderation which isn't present, which is where my perspective of needing to close it comes in

3

7:40 PM

Not sure if this is helpful, but I went there once when I wanted to share something interesting with the room's intended audience, and I instantly bounced off from the same kind of messages that seem to be at the core of this disagreement. I didn't feel welcome, and I didn't feel like arguing with a tone that I perceived to be aggressive. I just left.

Then moving down towards misinformation, it starts getting difficult. I hope we all agree it is dangerous, but how to combat it is non-trivial. Just removing it limit spread, but it fails to address anything underlying and characterization and explaining how/why something is misinformation requires a lot of effort. It comes a lot down to trusting specific entities

7:51 PM

If one doesn't have the energy/capacity to engage respectfully, governing advice is to disengage. That's at odds with something (in their opinion) needing moderation, harmful links etc. which need removal.

@AndrasDeak Of course it is appreciated and helpful. However, in my opinion it would be even more helpful if we knew which specific messages you are talking about (if these messages are mine, then let me say that I totally do not mind you pointing at them).

If things continue with teeth being dug in (and the multiple pings might help cause that perception) engaging becomes even more taxing. Chasing someone over a lack of replies is generally not productive. I can understand the impulse, but especially with the moderation actions that were taken, it should be fairly that some amount of respect and assumption of good faith as broken, and to continue it would need to be rebuilt

That's not easy, takes a lot of effort, and starts with one side opening up

@lila Nah, not yours. I didn't want to be too specific exactly to avoid putting a layer of meta-drama on the already complicated situation. Anyway, I meant messages like the wall at chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/58430661#58430661, specifically chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/57701311#57701311 back when I bounced off. If any of you mod or RO people think this message just stirs up more problems, feel free to delete/move as you see fit.

And other standing advice when you get too involved in a situation -- this goes for mods, RO, users, and probably just in general -- is to get someone else involved. Who is gonna depend on context. But a fellow mod (from the site in question) would be a good start

8:18 PM

@AndrasDeak Huh, the star usage there is rather different to what we're used to around here (that's ok, that culture varies). And if it comes to moving, I'd probably land on moving this whole convo to its own room. I don't see that warranted yet, but am not gonna oppose anyone if they feel like that's the call

OK

@AndrasDeak Oh okay, I see, thanks. I personally did not perceive them as aggressive, just direct -- however, full disclosure as I am also involved in this -- I totally support the request about source for those numbers, and I share the expressed claim about those numbers.

I figured

@Someone_Evil Full disclosure, these stars are mine and the "star culture" in this case is my personal quirk ^.^ per like in this transcript. I still haven't fully figured out how am I supposed to use them, and I use them as I did with fb "likes", on flippant messages which made me giggle, to show appreciation, or just to mark both for message author and for myself that I have read those messages.

@Someone_Evil ... If you think the amount of my stars is obnoxious, please feel welcome to remove them.