Here There Be Dragons

12:04 AM

I'm a little wary to wade into this and I may extricate myself, but I'm honestly not sure how those goals relate to rpg.se. We answer questions, and unless those questions are similar to those types of things above, we're not going to be addressing them. And I don't think I've eer seen promoting of or accepting of WoTC apologia/dogwhistles.

2

But I also personally have a hard time separating art from artist and stopping viewing art when the artist is horrid.

Or actually, I have too easy of a time separating art from artist.

BESW

In a nutshell, and dramatically oversimplified: rpg.se is damningly "neutral" about the misdeeds of the corporation that it's doing free tech support for.

NautArch

WHat options do we actually have about the corporation(s) that make the games we provide support for?

BESW

That's an excellent question. The Stack Exchange model is not designed for taking ethical stands.

The Stack Overlords themselves have found that studied neutrality is in fact tacit permissiveness, and they don't know how to back out of that corner they've designed themselves into either.

GcL

@NautArch Could provide an info sheet of "did you know?" or someone could ask the question on the stack, "Hey, I like D&D, but I don't agree with how Wizards does it's business. What is a simple thing I do to effect positive changes?"

BESW

I'm cynical about the potential for the Stack or any of its satellites to make significant changes within the existing structures, but it'd be nice to see people try, and if they discover it's not possible, to make an active informed choice about their continued use of the site in light of that impossibility.

So far, most of the individuals I've seen walking that path, wound up walking away entirely.

NautArch

12:12 AM

@BESW True, someone could ask that, but it seems potentially opinion based, to be honest.

But we all use products and services from companies much worse than wotc, too. And view art from the same.

BESW

Oh, this isn't a mainsite question. This would be an ongoing series of very serious meta discussions.

NautArch

Hmm, that seems like a main site question as it's not about stackexchange

BESW

I'm talking about how rpg.se itself, as a Q&A community, can address the ethical implications of its own relationship to the TRPG industry, and the specific ways it supports (Wizards) and doesn't support (indies) that industry.

I'm not pretending to have answers because answers from just one person, no matter how good, can't be sufficient. It's gonna have to be a reflection and consultation of the community, from which might emerge more insight and wisdom than any individual could provide themselves.

Individuals can figure out their own personal paths, with or without talking about it with their friends; but rpg.se is not an individual, nor is it simply the sum of individual choices.

GcL

@BESW What did the ones that did not walk away do?

BESW

For example, rpg.se has, many times in the past, decided what kinds of questions it will and will not answer, and taken strong measures to seek out or reject those kinds of questions. So to simply say that rpg.se is at the mercy of its question-askers is, at best, inaccurate. rpg.se as an entity has taken control of its content above and beyond the individual actions of its querents.

NautArch

12:41 AM

I'm not sure that's what I'm trying to say. I think in order to figure out what we can do, we need to figure out what the goal is first.

Without a clear goal, there is no action.

BESW

Aye.

And I'm not the person to define that goal.

I've said some problems I see, and some things I'd be pleased to see happen. But I'm just one person, and not even a content creator here anymore.

NautArch

I'm just not sure how to translate the things you'd like to see to what happens on mainsite.

I think chat handles a lot of those goals, to be honest. I'm just not seeing a similar path for mainsite questions. Mostly because mainsite seems responsive in nature. If there isn't a trigger for us to act on, then I don't understand what actions are even possible.

BESW

Yeah, that's definitely an obstacle baked into the structure we're given.

Like I said above, I'm cynical about the potential for the Stack Exchange to make this kind of turn.

Intent can be hobbled by context.

Derpy

12:43 PM

Afternoon.
Just a quick question that came to mind yesterday, after seeing some recent mentioning of the already discussed problem with the common presentation of Orcs in media.

Disclaimer: this involves American comics like DC and Marvel ones, of which I know next to nothing - so please be patient in case I manage to say some big big nonsense.

Basically, the topic is this. The Orc topic randomly reminded me of some old cartoon I saw time ago. It was like a spin-off what-if series about The Hulk, having him stranded on a planet inhabited by a race that kinda looked like him.

I don't know what the actual cartoon was. Some basic research I've done shows it may be Planet Hulk, but this doesn't matter really. The point is that I remembered thinking "this is basically Hulk meets World of Warcraft Horde."

I mean, look at some artworks (both official and fan made) for Planet Hulk.

AncientSwordRage

I'm quite familiar with this topic

Derpy

This made me realize that many Hulk designs (maybe I am wrong, as I said I know about nothing about Marvel/DC) look kinda "Orc"

AncientSwordRage

I don't think it was a what if series though

Derpy

and so I started thinking about "super-strong characters in American comics"

Next.. the Thing came to mind.

Again, seem to share some "Orc" traits.

NautArch

Similarities may also be due to different comic publishers glomming on to a successful design and making their own

AncientSwordRage

12:55 PM

@NautArch this

@Derpy I don't see them (whereas I did with Hulk)

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage maybe it is just me, but I was talking about that "savage, like the stereotypical depiction of a cave-man" thing

Since these character are in a way heroes, I was trying to find some patterns.

Like, both are depicted as not-very smart and somehow emotionally unstable.

NautArch

Be careful with pattern searching as well. It's what we humans do really well (finding patterns in things..whether or not they are actually there)

2

Derpy

That is exactly why I was asking here.

Since I don't know the topic in the first place, I wanted to know if this was something that someone already discussed.

or if it is just in my mind.

NautArch

And the Big & Strong but Dumb stereotype is pretty darn old.

I'm also unsure about Stan Lee and his knowledge of fantasy.

Or the other early writers

Derpy

Yep, but I was also doing some comparison about the Big, Strong but dumb in what little I know about Weastern cartoons compared to Japan anime

NautArch

1:00 PM

Does that theme cross into that?

I haven't watched a huge amount of anime, but Armstrong from FMA seems somewhat in that vein. But more self-obsessed than dumb.

Derpy

I don't know, my initial felling is that in anime there is no Big->dumb immediate connection.

Usually its is something more like Big&Strong->blinded by rage, start to act dumb.

NautArch

I think that's just a variation on the theme

In that the big and strong can't control emotions and then feed more into their primal/dumb

Derpy

not necessary, because in one case it often devolves into stupid. In anime it often ends up into rage driven fighting, more like a berserk. And often the character regains some mind when the "rage" finishes.

Furthermore, I was trying to see how the big and strong character is portrayed graphically

NautArch

That I think probably will show some differences.

Different cultural approaches to those themes.

AncientSwordRage

@Derpy Ben grim is very smart, just bit when compared to Reed Richards

Hulk was initially grey, but was turned green because of printing issues.

Derpy

1:06 PM

Seems like Anime focus on displaying rage, western media focus on "primal, animal like"

AncientSwordRage

As for orc analogies, the Banner/Hulk dichotomy (similar to Jekyll and Hyde) is about a split personality where one side is "human" and the other is animalistic.

Is bad orc tropes are drawing from that same animalistic well, there's going to be similarities

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Bingo. This is the thing that was bugging me

AncientSwordRage

And I think even then, the original hulk stories came from fears if nuclear war and warlike tendencies that becoming more primal or regressions

Derpy

The Hulk isn't supposed to be an hero model in the first place.

or , to be more precise... the Hulk was made to be flawed, and probably it incorporated some of the flaws of Orcs in the process.

AncientSwordRage

But I think the animalistic tendencies are centered around humanities war like tendency, which is why Hulk faces off against Commander Ross and their conflicts are always non-productive (trying to fix war with war doesn't work)

NautArch

1:11 PM

^^

AncientSwordRage

Vs. the bad tropes Orc being just wild, primal and savage

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage Yes, I was more trying to compare Hulk, which is far from the "Elf super human" thing with for example "Nembo Kid", now know as Superman.

and was trying to find a reason that could explain why Hulk was given that look

AncientSwordRage

Radiation == Green

I think orcs being green is a super new invention

Derpy

I think I already got my answer there anyway. Hulk is intended to have primal traits in a way, and that resulted in him not being "prince charming". And probably ended up taking some of the issues Orcs have in the process.

Thanks, was an useful exchange of ideas.

Anyway, since I mentioned it before, this is what I meant when I said Anime seems to have a different approach.

NautArch

And taking many of the issues that we have in ourselves, too.

But I wonder if the cultural difference is more of approach. Rage is another way of saying your emotions are leading of your intelligence. Which is what the hulk is doing.

I think they're more similar than you initially think.

Derpy

1:21 PM

NautArch

Just two different approaches.

Derpy

The one above is Dragonball Broly.

NautArch

I never watched dragonball :(

Derpy

Same character, berserk full power version.

Notice the white eyes, common element in animes. But you will also notice that he doesn't have the same "racial" issues of the common Orc images (at least, not so evident)

NautArch

I don't think picking a single example (or counterexample) is a good way to discuss.

Derpy

1:26 PM

That said, may be a natural consequence of animes being a product of the culture Orc portrait was specifically denigrating in the first place.

@NautArch If you want I could bring up more, I just picked a quite well know one (and the first one that came to mind)

NautArch

And nearly every culture sees anyone living outside of them as 'savages'...at least historically.

@Derpy Sure, but I can probably counter with Hunk from the original voltron/golion.

as an immediate front of mind example

Derpy

you have a point, but I think that is also a mix of every five-element robot in that period to have the exact same pilots.
- the hero,
- the solitary one, usually with hairs covering one of his eye
- the fat, strong, heart of gold simple minded one
- the girl
- the smart kid that bypasses every law on underage workforce

that thing managed to survive up to today somehow.

NautArch

Because it's a story telling system that works :)

2

have you read the Hero With A Thousand Faces?

Derpy

@NautArch not familiar with that but it is indeed a Trope.

tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand

NautArch

The Hero with a Thousand Faces

The Hero with a Thousand Faces (first published in 1949) is a work of comparative mythology by Joseph Campbell, in which the author discusses his theory of the mythological structure of the journey of the archetypal hero found in world myths. Since the publication of The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Campbell's theory has been consciously applied by a wide variety of modern writers and artists. Filmmaker George Lucas acknowledged Campbell's theory in mythology, and its influence on the Star Wars films.The Joseph Campbell Foundation and New World Library issued a new edition of The Hero with a Thousand...

Joseph Campbell has written some very interesting stuff, highly recommend.

Derpy

1:45 PM

Not familiar with this, but it seems a little... vague?

> A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man

NautArch

@Derpy That's the point. That theme has been used across religions and cultures over time and around the world.

Derpy

I mean, as long as you have a story about guy VS big bad you can basically say that everything fits that.

NautArch

Before you disregard it, I'd recommend reading it.

Derpy

@NautArch didn't say I would disregard it, just that it seems an "unspecific?" enough definition to be applyed to anything.

NautArch

@Derpy Again, please dont make a judgement without reading the book.

Derpy

1:49 PM

@NautArch just commenting on the summary. I assume that it doesn't exactly give a valid idea about the whole book

NautArch

It's similar to Carl Jung's archetype theories as well

Derpy

2:03 PM

Anyway, what I meant is that without knowing anything about the book it seems odd, based just on the Wikipedia small description that probably misses many points.

NautArch

Yeah, the whole thing is pretty amazing. The stories across cultures and ages really do boil down to the same thing.

Derpy

@NautArch yes, but what strikes as odd without knowing more is asking myself the simple question "ok, what should be a story that purposely doesn't follow this archetype?"

Because as long as I have an hero doing something....

NautArch

@Derpy THe real question is why do cultures across geography and time use this same archetype

Derpy

2:22 PM

@NautArch there is a similar thing that was once said about shonen anime/manga

Shōnen manga

Shōnen, shonen, or shounen manga (少年漫画, shōnen manga) are manga generally marketed towards young teen males. The age group varies with individual readers and different magazines, but it is primarily intended for boys between the ages of 12 and 18. The kanji characters (少年, shōnen) literally mean "boy" or "youth", and the characters (漫画 manga) means "comic"; thus, the complete phrase means "young person's comic", or simply "boys' comic," with the female equivalent being shōjo manga. Shōnen manga is one of the most popular and best-selling form of manga. == Summary == Shōnen manga is typica...

^ reference definition

Basically, a shonen follows a F.E.V. principle

Friendship, as in the bond between the hero and some allies that help him

Effort, the hero trains and become stronger to face challenges

Victory, at the end they win in some way

Seems to be an easy formula to write something that a boy would buy and read.

NautArch

A formula is similar, but this is something that isn't just based on a single culture.

That's what makes it really interesting.

Anywho, I really recommend reading Joseph Campbell

Derpy

3:01 PM

@NautArch sorry, had to go away for a while.

Will keep that in mind, but that probably will end up in the "Growing Stack of Things To Do"

Also known as "Things Overflow"

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

On the Thousand Faces and other patterns: indeed, one should be careful when searching for patterns. The more you generalise descriptions/criteria/&c., the more everything looks the same.

Derpy

My point was just that from Wikipedia I don't get if the claim is that every story about the journey of an hero follow that scheme (.... ok.... so every hero story has an hero... that does stuff.... often odd stuff... beats somebody... and sometime return home as a better person... Much Wow, so Impressed) or is focused on the fact that that pattern is by far more frequent that every other kind of story.

NautArch

@Derpy nono, the pattern is much more than that. But don't take the quick summary as a full explanation of the book.

Derpy

@NautArch yep, but what I am asking is "is this about a) saying that stories converge to this pattern b) studying the pattern or c) both"

NautArch

@Derpy Both :)

It's studying stories across cultures, time, and geography and realizing that there is a commonality.

AncientSwordRage

3:35 PM

I think how ubiquitous that story pattern is, is why that summary seems so vague

Derpy

@AncientSwordRage because it basically describes the expected plot of any jrpg you would buy, since if there is no hero there is no character to play as, if there is no journey there is no game to play, and if there is no ending... the game is infinite and it is too good to sell since you can play forever.

NautArch

I really have to say again that debating it's validity without reading it is an argument in bad faith.

Derpy

@NautArch oh, sorry, I wasn't debating the book, I was debating the summary Wikipedia gives of it.

NautArch

@Derpy heh. well, that's also not worthwhile :)

Derpy

I mean. You told me that the book deserves reading. If I didn't meet you here and just had the Wikipedia article, I would have basically thought "this guy discovered how to breathe! Hero stories have heroes doing stuff? Big discovery"

Really, doesn't manage to transfer the same value you describe here

But probably is just me, mind you.

NautArch

3:51 PM

Shame on me for posting Wikipedia, that's on me.

I'm not a fan.

but i thought it was better than an Amazon link :P

AncientSwordRage

Yeah but it's not like her discovered that JRPGs follow a pattern, or European stories follow a pattern....or just Asian ... or just Indian/Native american... it's all stories... everywhere

and IIRC it's broken down into like umpteen story parts that all fit

Derpy

anyway, I was just pointing out that the Wikipedia article seems vague because the way the scheme is described is basically the plot of every JRPG game I played since starting with Nes. And apparently trusting Naut the book is much more than that.

NautArch

His other books are really interesting, too. As well as the basis of a lot ofhis ideas from Jung's books.

Let'sm ove on from the Wiki article, that was my mistake.

And I promise never to use Wikipedia again :)

it's lazy research anyway

Derpy

@NautArch There are some articles on Wikipedia that can be used to have a basic understanding of a topic - not a goal, but a starting point.

Probably this one is just too short to convey the full extend of the topic.

NautArch

@Derpy Yeah, I agree. IT's a way to start finding real sources and information.

It's going to be something I'll figure out more as my kids get older and need to write research papers.

Derpy

3:58 PM

@NautArch nahhh, be lazy. Just send them to @BESW. It is their purpose, as an AI built to find answers.

I mean, why do the work when the BESW search routines can do it for you?

(sorry, it is late Friday, brain activity starts to go out and lame puns come to mind)

(more seriously, someday I will discover the trick he uses to be able to post a link to a 5 years old post in less than 1 second)

NautArch

He does have some amazing tricks

Derpy

@NautArch Multiple faces and arms like Ashura statues?

NautArch

@Derpy moar!

Derpy

4:16 PM

........ has Rubik just posted a message here and deleted it or the chat glitched out?

I saw a line about 50/50 chances in the right "rooms you are in" area, came here.. and Nau message was still the last one

Rubiksmoose

4:32 PM

@Derpy Just an edit. Didn't know those showed!

Derpy

probably for the few seconds before you edit the post out. But chat can be odd at times

Rubiksmoose

That it can lol

KorvinStarmast

4:56 PM

@Rubiksmoose Can someone explain to me in plain English what this means: For topics that should be opt-in, not opt-out That tells me nothing.

2

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Sure, this is a place for conversations that may be uncomfortable for some and/or that we don't want to have presented to users in our main chatroom immediately upon entering. Basically, this is a place where people can choose to engage in respectful but difficult conversations and not have it forced upon them in the chatroom where people hang out.

Does that help?

KorvinStarmast

5:16 PM

@Rubiksmoose enter at your own risk? Is that the message? Examples of such topics? I am at a loss ...

GcL

@KorvinStarmast E.g. talking about making weight for a wrestling or judo or jujitsu weigh-in would get moved here.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Racism in games (eg problem with orcs) would be an example to a point. But anything that someone says they are uncomfortable with in main chat. It is the same as NAB was intended to be used just a new name.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast The simplest is that this is the new "NAB"

with the OG NAB now something different as it's evolved into a more active room.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast But yes, that is largely the message. Conversations won't be always comfortable here.

MikeQ

5:38 PM

Would this be the place to ask worldbuilding advice for how to depict (or not depict) ficitonal cultures/interactions/racism (or other real-world parallels), since it would inevitably touch on real-world issues?

GcL

To me, sounds like such a thing would fit here.

MikeQ

e.g. someone asks "I want to depict a fantasy setting based on <real-world setting> but I am unsure how to deal with <events that occurred in that real-world setting that are difficult to discuss nowadays>"

GcL

Sounds gnarly and the sort of thread that might be better to start in here.

MikeQ

Thanks, that's good to know!

NautArch

5:59 PM

Yeah, that sounds like a perfect discussion for this room @MikeQ

V2Blast

Yep!

KorvinStarmast

9:00 PM

@V2Blast classic example of fixing something not broken. so it goes.

Rubiksmoose

Maybe not broken for you, but others differed in their perspective.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose They would be wrong, but we'll not solve that here.

Rubiksmoose

I don't believe it is fair or polite to just universally claim that every person who disagrees with you on this topic is wrong. You are free to have your opinion of course, but this line of discourse is not productive.

4

BESW

10:24 PM

@Derpy Interesting point: neither orcs nor The Hulk were originally green. They changed Hulk to green after a few issues just because the printer had trouble keeping his grey skin consistent from page to page.

As you can see, the Orientalising of Hulk isn't in the original character design. It'd be fascinating to try and track that movement, but overall I suspect it's specific to particular artists.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I've never picked up on it, but I'm not the best person to pick up in these things

BESW

I haven't paid a lot of attention to Hulk in comics, but my vague impression is that it's inconsistent, and shows up more in runs (like that ones linked above) which draw on Edgar Rice Burroughs influences for the setting.

AncientSwordRage

That's fair

BESW

It's also worth noting, I think, that because a lot of racist depictions of real-life people use animal-like features to dehumanize their subjects, a character design that is trying to appear animalistic is liable to manifest certain racist associations without intent.

2

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that's extremely well worded

BESW

10:35 PM

I thought about it a lot when I binged all nine Planet of the Apes films a couple months ago.

But the Planet Hulk comics, in particular, are an explicit homage to an extremely racist 1910s pulp fiction property. The comics covers are done in the style of famous cover pulp fiction artists of that era, and so I'm disappointed but unsurprised that the comic artists have chosen for that particular depiction of Hulk to mirror the dehumanizing Orientialism of their source material.

...I also have Opinions about the monomyth.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW capital-O opinions? What are they?

BESW

I'll just point out that in Campbell's formula the mentor makes a brief cameo and then vanishes; stories based on the monomyth formula tend to have a training montage, if any training at all, before the mentor gets yeeted. I suggest, @Derpy, that you compare this to the extensive presence of "training and relationship with mentor" as an entire arc or even a story in itself, in the Asian media you're familiar with.

@BardicWizard Well, if you're asking... [rummages]

in TRPG General Chat, Jun 23 at 1:22, by BESW

Joseph Campbell backwards-engineered a universal structure by ignoring that the themes and rhythms of myths vary wildly between cultures and only cherry-picking the bits which fit his world view, then convincing himself and a large portion of Western media and academia that he'd solved storytelling.

in TRPG General Chat, Jun 23 at 1:43, by BESW

One of Campbell's students reported that he said, "Women don’t need to make the journey. In the whole mythological journey, the woman is there. All she has to do is realize that she’s the place that people are trying to get to."

in TRPG General Chat, Jun 23 at 1:25, by BESW

(The monomyth would have been a much more useful and less toxic concept if he'd been content to leave it as a story rather than making grand claims of having discovered the story.)

Bardic Wizard

10:53 PM

Yeah, those are good opinions

BESW

And since everybody mentions Star Wars...

in TRPG General Chat, Jun 23 at 0:57, by BESW

(I think it's useful, in discussions of Lucas and the monomyth, to note that the monomyth isn't as chiastic as Star Wars.)

Bardic Wizard

my 8th grade English teacher started with “I don’t like the idea of the monomyth. Unfortunately, the people who design the curriculum do...”

Rubiksmoose

lol

BESW

That teacher gets a gold star.

Bardic Wizard

She’s the best teacher at that school.

user15026

10:56 PM

@BardicWizard I love that

BESW

I'm particularly annoyed by the monomyth because it's reached such saturation levels that stories which don't conform to it are often poorly reviewed --or even never published at all-- simply because they don't follow that one particular formula.

user15026

My English degree is comprised of learnings from way tooo many people who loved the idea of the monomyth way tooo much

user15026

@BESW nods emphatically

user15026

especially in academia and such

user15026

(sorry, I'm bitter. I know.)

BESW

11:01 PM

And on the topic of TRPGs, I strongly urge people interested in narrative structures for their games, to consider chiasmus over monomyth. It's a lot easier to incorportate on the fly as you improvise a story.

Re: Green orcs, this scifi.se answer is very speculative but still rather interesting.

Transcript for

Here There Be Dragons