Discussion on answer by Odo: Can Alert prevent Surprise if you don't know the enemy exists?

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18:31

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A: Can Alert prevent Surprise if you don't know the enemy exists?

RAW you roll initiative Other answers have covered the reasons for this. This way of running it does, however, subvert the usual benefits of a high initiative roll. Say there are two enemies, Xi and Yie, and two PCs Qu and Wu where Qu has Alert. Xi and Yie are both in darkness and silence. The in...

NautArch

How would your players react to the opposite situation where an enemy is tipped off to their location that they believe to be safe through darkness and silence.

Odo

It would rarely ever happen because enemies would not likely have the Alert feat. If my players set up such an ambush and I would never give an enemy the Alert feat. If I had an enemy that I truly wanted to have the alert feat then it would have narrative importance and I would give the players opportunities to discover it.

NautArch

Even outside the alert feat, would your players be okay with negating the advantages those spells gave them? THat's what your last paragraph seems to be doing.

Odo

Without the alert feat Qu would be surprised and would gain no advantages.

NautArch

Right but in your initial you are also giving Qu information as to the potential location. That's the area i'm concerned with.

Pyrotechnical

18:31

I think it's important for your combat order to be better clarified. You indicate with the 'wasted turn' as Xi, Yie, Wu, Qu. But you fail to indicate that besides Qu and whomever the attacker is, nobody else is going to be taking an Action, Moving, or taking a Reaction on that turn. There's a whole lotta nothing from those other characters. If the DM even bothers to ask those players, 'what they do,' on that turn then they're just wasting time because they can't do anything.

Odo

If Qu is not surprised, spends their action to search for signs of a foe, and rolls highly on a perception/investigation check then yes I would allow them to intuit something of the enemies location. I would do the same if an enemy was unsurprised, spent its action to search for the party, and rolled very high on its check. The point is moot, however, because I think it would be bad of me as a DM to send an enemy with the Alert feat into my players' ambush.

@Pyrotechnical Yie would attack as well because Yie is a second enemy.

Pyrotechnical

@Odo all the more reason to clarify that into your discussion on the revised order. Also, you'd need to make sure Yie coordinated their attack with Xie. They're both in Darkness and Silence, that might make coordination very difficult.

NautArch

And why would Qu look? Because you declared initiative? That can roll at your table, but definitely not all. I'd probably ask the player where and why they are trying to perceive something. And if anything, the reply of "you sense no sound or movement in front of you" would be the result.

Odo

@NautArch you are describing the first scenario I outlined. Without giving the character knowledge that something is amiss it would be metagaming to take the search action or otherwise prepare for combat. I am suggesting that you, as the DM, give the character the same knowledge that the player has because otherwise you, as a DM, have set up an encounter specifically around making one of the player's feats obsolete.

NautArch

Not everything works all the time. That's like saying bringing casters with save attacks against players with high AC is setting up an encounter specifically against investing in AC. Others say that's just life.

Odo

18:34

Except that AC is a regular mechanic and casters are a common type of enemy. Alert is a situational feature that is specifically designed to prevent a character from being surprised during an ambush and allow that character to have a higher initiative roll. Going with the first scenario the player would have been better off with a lower initiative roll so Alert's +5 bonus would be a detriment. The player would have been equally well off with or without Alert

NautArch

And that happens sometimes. I"m not sure that's a downside.

Odo

"sometimes" The enemies would not be hiding in silence and darkness by pure coincidence. They are hiding in that manner because the DM chose to create that type of encounter.

NautArch

DM's shouldn't create encounters that play to party weaknesses?

Odo

Alert is not a weakness. It is designed as a strength to specifically counter ambushes.

A DM should not create an encounter specifically to negate a situational ability designed to thwart that type of encounter.

Being stuck doing nothing during an ambush when you sacrificed a feat specifically to avoid that type of circumstance is not going to be fun for most players. I honestly cannot imagine it would be fun for a DM to do that to a player either. There is no story, no puzzle, just a complicated scenario designed to make the player think their choice was useless.

Lexaire

19:08

Since my questions have been ruled duplicates, should I delete them?

Someone_Evil

No, 1. we consider dupes a good thing, and 2. if you disagree with it being a dupe, please clarify the distinction in the question

Lexaire

Doesn't it harm my reputation on the site to be stupidly asking duplicate questions which have already been answered?

Someone_Evil

No?

A long pattern of clearly not making an effort to find previous questions might, but this is far from that

If nothing else you can't actually delete them yourself because they have answers with upvotes

And again, they're not ruled to be dupes. They are currently closed as such, but can be reopened (by the same/other users) and should if they aren't dupes.

Lexaire

I don't understand. Hasn't a mod closed it for being a duplicate question? How can it be no longer a duplicate question in the future? That doesn't make sense.

Someone_Evil

No, the users who closed your question aren't moderators (in the typical sense), just users with sufficient rep/privileges. You can edit the question to clarify how it isn't a dupe, though if you agree it is one then we don't need to do anything (but then I'm not sure why we're having this convo)

Additional reading if you'd like: What does it mean for a question to be closed?

Lexaire

19:30

Is there something I should do to fix my question? Or just accept that I messed up and search more next time before asking?

Someone_Evil

Well, I assume there's a reason you asked the second one?

Lexaire

Yes it was two different situations I encountered in my game.

Someone_Evil

Which is to say: What do the dupe target(s) not answer for you

@Lexaire Clarify why and how they are different

Lexaire

"What happens when your group is victim of a surprise attack but you can't be surprised?" answers the case where a player can perceive an enemy exists. My question is one where the player is unaware the enemy exists.

Someone_Evil

Sounds to me like initiative is called at the wrong time, but maybe that's just me and if you emphasize that in the question you'll get that as an answer

Lexaire

19:50

So you'd say the enemy can fire a shot before initiative is rolled?

Someone_Evil

I would say that the interpretation of the alert feat preventing surprise means you are aware you are being attacked before the actual attack happens. Because that's what the PCs feature affects the narrative to be

NautArch

20:17

@Someone_Evil Spidey-sense may be a better option if you want to rule it like that. That way they can do something but not with enough data to actually react with it at the aggressor.

Pyrotechnical

@Lexaire one of the reasons that duplicates are good is because there are a lot of ways to think about a problem. Sometimes folks have a preference for different words, or present it from a unique point of view, sometimes individual cultural norms affect it. Whatever the case, a duplicate is helping us as a community identify and look at problems from many different points of view.

The minutia may be significant that it warrants a new questions. Or maybe it doens't. Regardless, duplicates help a lot because no one can think of every way to ask the same question, but asking the same questio…

Someone_Evil

@NautArch Well, to me the natural actions to consider would be the much discussed Ready action or oft forgotten Search actions (with a sidenote to certain spells, Dodge, or Hide)

But I weren't not saying to narrate it as Spidey-senses

Lexaire

I think it would be metagaming to ready an action for a threat that can not be perceived as existing.

NautArch

@Someone_Evil hehe. Yeah, i think a readied action or dodge works here.

@Lexaire this is if you go with @Someone_Evil's alert.

Pyrotechnical

@Odo I won't disagree that the scenario you described above could be detrimental to the character with the Alert feat by a strict interpretation of the rules, but I would also point out that the described scenario is pretty niche. And thus we can fall back upon the general 5e mantra of DM's should make rulings, not rules.

NautArch

20:23

Which I think is reasonable (someone_evil's spidey-sense style, but not exact idea)

Pyrotechnical

@Odo if the situations of the universe create a scenario whereby an improvement has become a detriment, DMs are absolutely empowered to tweak things appropriately.

NautArch

@Pyrotechnical I'm not sure it's really a detriment. It's just not useful in this specific situation

Odo

Alert has two parts: Can't be surprised and a +5 to initiative. The second part would be a detriment

If the player rolled lower then the attacker they would be able to freely use their action to respond. Having a +5 to initiative makes rolling lower than the attacker less likely

That is why I suggested in my answer that the DM allow the character to "feel that something was off", basically the same thing as spidey sense

NautArch

Right, but these are ideas you are putting forth as well. Not experienced-based suggestions that account for the pros and cons.

Lexaire

@Odo When I worked out some sample initiatives on paper, it seemed like rolling high for initiative vs low doesn't really matter because either you rolled too high so you "miss" your first turn before the enemy attacks but you go first on the next round, or you rolled low so you get to respond to their attack, but then next round you're below them.

though it does mean you end up going after your entire team

I take that back, it does seem to make things worse for you if you roll high on initiative.

NautArch

20:36

@Lexaire Well, you would be able to react if you had a reaction available. But rolling high does let you dodge if you decide to give them enough of an in-game heads-up that something is amiss.

Or heck, they simply leave the room. "Something's not right here, folks."

Lexaire

That is, unfortunately, what happened in my game too. The Alert guy rolled like a 25 on his initiative, went first, I told him he didn't see or hear any enemies. "Uh, but we're in initiative and I can't be surprised". He was in the middle of the party walking down a flight of stairs.

NautArch

@Lexaire Honestly, I like the spidey sense. It gives them something without too much.

and feels like it's in tune with the feat.

Lexaire

I guess I'm just beating a dead horse here though.

NautArch

and you can use it when you need to, and at times it's not relevant, it's not relevant.

Odo

@NautArch what on earth were we discussing then?

NautArch

20:38

I had sentinel and still had to fight monsters that could leave/enter my range without triggering it.

It happens, and it's not a big deal.

To not have a feat work every time.

@Odo providing more than that. And also making recommendations that aren't supported by looking at the pros and cons. I"m not sure why i've got two downvotes on my answer, but i've tried to do all that.

Lexaire

My question was reopened!

NautArch

@Lexaire doy ou feel it should be?

Lexaire

I edited it to explain how it was different. I am not 100% clear on how the rules work here though so I might still be wrong. I am sure a dozen users will be by to tell me if that is the case.

@NautArch How can you see who reopened it?

NautArch

@Lexaire can you see this?

Lexaire

Yes

I see it now, thanks

NautArch

20:46

that's the "edited" down by where your name is as the original poster.

@Lexaire but yeah, i don't see this isa dupe (not that I haven't been known to answer those before finding the dupe)

i thought you were saying your first question was reopened and I'm pretty confident in my duplication there (but open to different views if you feel so inclined!)

Lexaire

I felt like it was a unique situation given the proximity of the party to each other, but the answer to both is the same in how to handle it.

Though I do appreciate Thomas Markov's answer in clarifying how they are handled the same.

Pyrotechnical

@Lexaire I think including some discussion about the specific situation you encountered would be very helpful. I was actually envisioning a scenario whereby a Rogue was scouting ahead of the party and the party was some 60' back.

NautArch

@Lexaire That's why I still you think your core question is still " It really seems like the core of your questions are when to include creatures in combat initiative and when not to. "

Lexaire

Well Markov's recommendation was basically do include them, they just should roleplay based on what their character knows.

@Pyrotechnical I was trying to distill it down to be generally useful. In my game, a bard climbed down a 20 ft hole while the rest idled about in the room. One guy stood in a corner, 30 ft away from the hole. This of course was the wizard with Alert feat. So down in the hole, three flameskulls attack the bard.

Pyrotechnical

@Lexaire like I said earlier, 5e has a strong philosophy of rulings over rules. In the question's original format, you've got a situation whereby I understood a need for a RAW answer. If that information is edited in, I'd be compelled to provide a recommended ruling for the scenario.

NautArch

20:56

@Pyrotechnical please support the ruling, though!

But again, I think we're getting caught up in the specifics when a big issue here is how to handle creatures that aren't involved because they are unknown when initiative is rolling.

Lexaire

Can anyone make extended discussion chats?

NautArch

@Lexaire They auto-generate after a certain amount of back and forth between two users

We also have our very own chat for when you just want to chat.

Someone_Evil

21:40

In this particular case someone flagged from the comment thread to be moved to chat and I complied. The direct "move to chat" option is only available to diamond mods

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Discussion on answer by Odo: Can Aler…