Found an interesting bit in IRC 2012.

SECTION R907 REROOFING. R907.3 Recovering versus replacement. New roof coverings shall not be installed without first removing all existing layers of roof coverings where any of the following conditions exist: 3. Where the existing roof has two or more applications of any type of roof covering.

I always thought it was 3 layers.

we've always known it to be 2 layers here in buffalo

not sure if when they tear off the 2 layers if their required to do new plywood or if thats up to the discression of the roofer / owner

I'd heard 3 as the max before too - perhaps they decided that was too much.

@TheEvilGreebo that does become a lot of weight, although it doesn't compare to snow

but if you add a good blanket of snow to that...

I don't think the weight is the issue

the point of the roof is to protect the interior from water

3 layers is a lot of puncturing of the lower layers and its very hard to get a good even layer, so the risk of water penetration is greatly increased IMO

@TheEvilGreebo gotcha

then again, when my roof starts leaking, well I guess I just replace the whole panel (or get a new roof?)

is there any way to install a vapor barrier of sorts on roof rafters without creating a problem?

@lsiunsuex isn't the vapor barrier usually instaleld between the cieling and the insulation?

as a precaution against a leak - in my case that we have stuff in the attic we want to protect - can you put something on the rafters that if it should leak, would protect the contents of the attic but not cause moisture / heat / cold issues with the roof?

@waxeagle right, but the other day, i think tester said no vapor barrier on the actual roof rafters

omg - just hand an excellent idea i think

our master bedroom on the 2nd floor is the coldest room in the house - even after being completely gutted and fully insulated - the duct work just isn't sufficient for the room

almost unrelated - on the first floor, there was an addition on to the front of the house. this addition has a roof line that extends up past the 2nd floor about 5 feet up the wall at the peak

this addition has a small leak in the roof. so i was going to drop the ceiling, find the leak, fix it and re-drywall

what if when i drop the ceiling, i re-drywall to the peak (ie: not drywall the room's ceiling flat, but follow the roof line) - that would expose the 5 feet where the roof line meets the master bedroom exterior wall - i could cut a hole in this wall, install a fan, and suck hot air thats in the ceiling of the addition that normally would be wasted and force it into the master bedroom

@lsiunsuex You mean... a roof?

@lsiunsuex That's probably because ther'es no air return in/near that room

@lsiunsuex Under your shingles should be tar paper. The tar paper is a moisture barrier. If you put a moisture barrier under the roof sheeting, you would be creating a vapor sandwich

now if you raise the ceiling up to the roof level, you're creating a new situation

you need outside air on the underside of the roof sheeting

you don't want outside air next to the drywall

so you need soffit vents letting air into the cavity between insulation and the roof sheeting

and you definitely want a vapor barrier between the insulation and the drywall

gimme a minute drawing apic

the air layer can be big or small - so if you angle the ceiling, whatever, the green and pink alyers follow the drywall, the air fills the space between pink and brown

so how do i create that air layer?

insulation stapled to the roof rafters - drywall screwed right into the roof rafters

i've seen styrofoam air baffles - would i use those?

and insulate around them?

there is a return in the room - the problem is its on this exterior wall and the wall is where the support beam is in the first floor where they opened the family room into the addition - so we don't think it goes anywhere (so i guess it doesn't have a return)

unless the return feeds into the ceiling of the family room, in which case the return goes no where - there is no return in the family room

@lsiunsuex yep, run them from bottom to top in your case

@lsiunsuex you'll have to trace the return line trunk and find out

so then the only question is, when they put the addition on - did they use the same shitty 2x4's they did on the main part of the house or something > 2x6

for what?

and I wouldn't know

i wanted to vault the ceiling like this in the master bedroom but because the roof on the main part of the house is made of 2x4's, we all came to the conclusion the roof wouldn't be strong enough to support the extra weight of the drywall hanging on it

right, not saying you would know :) i'll have to find out

Not sure how the roof is set up, but don't forget you need a way for the air to move through the roof. So if you have soffit vent and baffles, you need ridge or roof vents.

@Tester101 yeah sorry forgot to point that out

you can't let the air stagnate

otherwise its a moisture sandwich

from climbing on that roof to hand holiday lights off of it, theres no ridge or roof vents so those will need to be installed

none?

no gable vents or anything?

no

nowhere in your roof?

the room is about 15 feet x 8 feet?

no where on this additions roof - on the main house yes

Is it?

@lsiunsuex ah and are the addition roof and main roof connected now?

no - the addition's roof ends up about half way up the wall of the 2nd floor

you're saying that if you raise the ceiling you'll be isolating that part of the roof? Not that its currently isolated - right?

@TheEvilGreebo Older homes didn't always have roof vents. They are usually installed during a reroof (but not always because people think the contractor is trying to upsell them).

oh so the addition roof IS isolated

yes, isolated

@Tester101 older homes didn't insulate / seal as well either

@lsiunsuex that was stupid...

True

if it only has soffit vents there is no airflow

air has to be able to move thru it

because the roof of the addition ends up half way up the wall of the 2nd floor, if i vault the ceiling of this addition, i could cut a hole into the wall of the 2nd floor which is in the master bedroom and pull hot air from the first floor through this addition to help heat the master bedroom

More likely the cold air would leave through that opening and warm air would get in thru the ductwork like its supposed to

you have to think of air flow like water flow. you can't push more water into a full container. The best thing to do is fix the return air situation in the master

the brick is the addition

the roof of this addition extends about 5 feet up the 2nd floor exterior wall at its peak

the ceiling in the addition is flat

if when i pull the ceiling to find the leak, instead of re-drywalling it flat, i fallow the peak, it'll allow me to cut a hole into the wall inside of the addition but also inside of the master bedroom and force air (even with just a fan) into the master bedroom from the first floor

and, looking at it, it looks like the roof of the addition is made of 2x4's :(

you stole my skeleton

give it back

the roof being made with 2x4s isn't necessarily wrong if they used trusses

seeing how they didnt use trusses in the main roof, they probably didnt use it in this addition - but i will have to look obviously

assuming they were different builders you really don't know w/o looking

right

is there a Law stack exchange?

@lsiunsuex nope

patents is about as close to law as they've gotten

trying to figure out if i was actually arrested yesterday morning or just detained

@lsiunsuex lol

were your rights read to you?

no rights, no finger prints, no photo taken, but i was searched and thrown into a cell until my wife bailed me out

what did you do?

forgot to pay a speeding ticket from 2011, which in turn suspended my license, so on my way to work yesterday at 5:40 AM, i got pulled over for a dead tail light, they saw the outstanding speeding ticket and suspended license and took me in

@lsiunsuex ick

$100 bail out, $70 to get my license unsuspended - they cut up my license, so $17 to get a temporary one, $145 to get my car out of the impound. I now have 4 tickets - 1 from 2011 and 3 from yesterday across 2 court dates in 2 different towns

was awesome.

@lsiunsuex so much fun

remember kids - dont forget to pay your speeding tickets!

@lsiunsuex srsly. I've gotten 2 and paid them both (afaik, I mailed one of them and never heard back)

but I assume that it's paid because state of IN said they were going to report it if I didn't pay w/in x days

a women here - he husband is a cop - she said the miranda wasen't nessecary cause i admitted to what happened and the photo / finger prints weren't nessecary cause i didnt actually kill someone - so she thinks i was arrested

which doesn't really matter i guess - my finger prints have been on file since i worked for a bank back in 2000

@lsiunsuex all misdemeanor charges then?

1 misdemeanor 2 traffic violations and whatever the ticket from 2011 was

@lsiunsuex gotcha

the absolute best part of it is because it was so early and dark in the morning - i never caught the officer's name until i got home and read the tickets

it was our security guard's son - i could have gotten my hand slapped, taken the day off, went to the court and paid the suspension fee and just went to court for the 1 ticket

i talk to our security guard like 7 times a day when i go out for a smoke, every day. fml

@lsiunsuex that sucks. I'm not very well connected in town, but a couple of my college buddies are on the force here in town. Hasn't benefited me yet, but I'm hoping it does someday

SECTION R319 SITE ADDRESS R319.1 Address numbers. Buildings shall have approved address numbers, building numbers or approved building identification placed in a position that is plainly legible and visible from the street or road fronting the property. These numbers shall contrast with their background. Address numbers shall be Arabic numbers or alphabetical letters. Numbers shall be a minimum of 4 inches (102 mm) high with a minimum stroke width of 1/2 inch (12.7 mm).

Where access is by means of a private road and the building address cannot be viewed from the public way, a monument, pole or other sign or means shall be used to identify the structure.

Better go measure your numbers.

@Tester101 That should be 1/2 inch I think not 72 inches

@Tester101 lol, I'm 90% sure mine don't comply.

they are on a pipe set into the ground, barely visible from the road and they aren't 4" high

no mention of kerning? drop shadows? wtf is this, 1980's?

@NiallC. Good catch.

@waxeagle Better build yourself a monument to mount a compliant number

@Tester101 My house would barely be wide enough to hold enough numbers.

@NiallC. could just put compliant numbers on both sides of my mailbox...

@NiallC. 4"x72" would be a job.

@waxeagle I like the idea of a monument a lot better :)

seen way to many houses where trying to find the house # is like playing a wheres waldo game

Does it say anything about the numbers blocking egress windows? Because I might be OK if not

I'd need 24' to get mine in

probably should hire a billboard company. "Hi, I need a bill board for the roadside, 24' x 4". Yes, that's right, only 4" high"

@lsiunsuex did they process you?

not finger prints / photo / miranda

but definately sat in a cell for a bit so i'm not sure

stripped me to my underwear searched all my clothing (not the car to my knowledge) - sat in the cell with just jeans, tshirt - no shoes, socks, wallet, cell phone, etc...

Did they document you?

if not, then no i'd say not technically arrested

i didnt personally fill anything out past what a list of what was in my pockets - then whatever the wife filled me out to bail me out

i'm not a lawyer tho

tempted to take my lawyer to court with me for the 3 tickets...

but 2 are traffic violations so i dont think the judge will be too pissed...

that's an interesting kind of spam

we use white board paint (not sure if its idea paint or not) here in the office - works well - smells like shit until it drys

used chalkboard paint in the kitchen - came out nice - 2 coats

@lsiunsuex cool :). We're thinking about doing something like chalkboard or white board paint in our kitchen for our monthly calendar etc

I think it's an excellent idea.

the frame is just some cheap picture frame from Michaels or Jo-Anns - took out the glass and backing and screwed it to the wall - liquid nails didnt dry fast enough to hold it in place - buy the picture frame first - trace the inside of it onto the wall then paint the box that you made - then you wont paint outside of where the picture frame will be

@lsiunsuex cool :). (the missus is both a craft nut and a pintrest junkie so we've got a bunch of this kind of stuff in the queue)

And don't forget to use a level. Nothing worse than a permanently crooked chalkboard.

Good morning @BiffMaGriff.

@Tester101 too true. I'm not a huge fan of leveling things, but I definitely pulled it out to straighten our 36 frame heart shaped collage in our bedroom

afternoon, evening, night?

@Tester101 good date.now to you too ser

I couldn't find a .net date.now.tostring that actually gives morning/afternoon/evening :(

echo date('m-d-Y h:i a');

PHP FTW

@lsiunsuex no, just no.

YOU'RE A HOOKER!!!

@lsiunsuex *YOU'RE

You are a smelly pirate hooker.

Why don't you go back to your home on Whore Island?

for reference

As opposed to.... just laying the vinyl on top of the floor?

the few vinyl tiles we used in the front entry way came with glue on them. some don't i take it?

So is she asking whether she needs to add additional glue to the pre-glued tiles?

the entire question really doesn't make sense. she sanded and washed the old vinyl - ok - shes gonna patch the areas that are f'ed up - ok - so what did she sand down? the entire floor or just the area's needing patch? why did she sand it down and not replace the tile completely? or did she sand down the old glue after she removed what tile was left in the area to be patched? she found an exact match on the old tile with new tile? did the old tile not fade over the years?

the only possible answer is to just gut the entire room and start over - not repair a damaged vinyl tile

:shrug:

Ah, binders

seen 1 hour ago

question asked 2 hours ago

no answer :(

so I had some screwed up old closet globe-type ceiling fixture I took down, but I couldn't get to the wire terminals

@TheEvilGreebo The vinyl tile question?

There was something screwed in holding the whole assembly down and I couldn't figure out what was going on, so I just ended up cutting the copper right in front of it and re-stripping it

@NiallC. Ya

PUT

So I was re-attaching and connecting new HVAC in the crawlspace

got it all done, but it makes me want to redo the entire setup next year

Is there a code requirement for rigid ductwork for forced-air heating and cooling?

Flex duct seems much easier to me

I just need to caulk all the of duct boots and I'm done with HVAC for now

though my door keeps getting pushed back by the mill

why does it take 2 months to make a small louvered door?

>:(

So now I have to hang 5 doors, case and base, lay in my granite slab, attach water fixtures, touch-up paint and I'm done

@MatthewPK You too early for PUT. Ignore the banner on the site, it's got a premature PUT condition.

@Tester101 I won't be around to PUT later :D

Okay. Well since @BMitch isn't around, lets kick it off early.

Welcome to Project Update Thursday!

thanks for everyones input last week - my window install went smoothly

@Steven Pictures?

gimme a min

Circuit only has one outlet (that I know of) and maybe a switch, its own first floor almost right above the breaker box in the basement

my first window replacement - don't be too critical :)

@Steven is this for egress or was the window there busted before?

not egress

the window before ...well I don't even know if id call it a window by todays standard

metal frame, poorly cut pieces of glass = window

@Steven could you not have used a 1x2 on the bottom to reduce the shimming needed?

Nice - how do you intend to finish it?

well I am going to finish the basement, so I plan to put 1.5" XPS foam on all the exposed concrete parts then apply drywall which should overlap the bottom of the frame ever so slightly

1.5" XPS on the wall, then 2x4 then 1/2" drywall so when it is finished it will be more "boxed"

And now that I see the Tester kicked it off early

@lsiunsuex I originally was going to use a 2x4 on the top, but the concrete was not quite even on the bottom and there wasn't enough room, so I left off the top part of the frame and just filled it with foam

@Steven looks great... I would be confused about how to meet the drywall to the outside edges of the window opening though... I am not very good at drywall

Do you use the outside edge pieces over the wood frame?

i would drywall up to the edge of the concrete - then build a box that buts up to the vinyl window - then trim from the wood box to the drywall

insulating where i can

nail the wooden box to the existing 2x4's on either side

I didn't use the outside edge pieces - I am just going to paint it

on the outside, there is already mortar built-up to angle away from the window

and its recessed in a window well, so it should be pretty protected

my biggest mistake was being a bit over-zeleous with the great stuff (window and doors foam, not the rigid one) - lots of cleanup was needed outside

@Steven When using window + door foam, however much you think you should spray, cut that amount in half. Then cut that amount in half again. You will still be spraying too much and creating a mess

lesson learned :)

I have another one to do, but this one the metal frame is in good shape, not sure if I want to remove another one

though I don't like the idea of the metal frame being a huge heat sink and causing condensation.. so I might have to remove the other one too, ugh.

great... wife screaming at me and telling me I am ridiculous for suggesting an electrician might charge us a couple hundred dollars to diagnose and repair a shorting circuit

FML

that's why you don't tell her how much it cost - haven't you learned anything? :P

@Steven apparently not. She is completely incapable of understand the concept of diagnosis

and that a master electrician could easily run $100/hr +

I mean, people have to eat! lets just hope it's not like the plumber that @tester101 thinks we're being mean about and will ask to come back another time because he forgot his multi-meter :P

The problem is for a lot of electric issues you don't need an "electrician" you need someone with patience and a good idea of where the wires might be going behind the walls

for that much money, you may as well demo the wall and re-wire it

because there's only so many points that you can interact with it

@maple_shaft Why does your wife think that's unlikely?

@TheEvilGreebo Because she WANTS it to be unlikely

ah

flowers solve all.

Tell her to find the electrician then.

"Ok, I'm probably wrong. Can you take care of it for me?"

If she takes the bait, then you've won.

She is also furious at me that I didn't bother asking this guy what his rate was, but he came highly recommended from my grandpa, that throws work his way all the time

didn't we have the DIY wife discussion in here last week?

Yes. It's where we learned that @TheEvilGreebo 's wife has whipped him to the point where he doesn't even recognize that he's whipped.

... like she will find a guy as qualified in the phone book that won't try to rip us off on price

the cheapest option is usually not the best option.,

@ChrisCudmore I never win... even when I win

id rather pay someone $100/hr who knows what they are doing and will fix it right then pay someone $50/hr who bumbles around for hours and makes a bigger mess

especially when I win

@ChrisCudmore Wait, what?

@Steven hear hear

@maple_shaft Rule #1 of married life. As soon as you realize you are right - apologize.

Anyone got spam flags to use up? diy.stackexchange.com/a/20038/22

done.

and done

Rule #2: When she is angry, let her stomp around and act like a complete child that in no way resembles anymore the woman you fell in love with all those years ago... and let her beat her chest and make ridiculous conspiratorial accusations and absurd shoot yerself in the foot proclamations

so

childish

@maple_shaft I feel compelled to point out that this chat is archived and searchable

@Aaron So it is...

rule #1 of DIY: you do not talk about chat.stackexchange.com ?

@Steven Don't pick on professional tradespeople, just because some random person on the internet wasn't happy with their work.

@lsiunsuex lol

I hear ya, but there are just as many bad tradespeople as good.. and I had the exact same situation and the plumber basically tried to charge me through the roof for the fact that they had to come back 3 times, each time with different people.. so I had one guy come, leave, 2 guys come, leave, and another guy come, leave... just to clear a drain... like that's just crazy..

anyways, didn't mean to hit a nerve (sorry if I did)... it was just an experience I could relate to

@Steven What was the problem with the drain ultimately?

@Steven It doesn't bother me personally. I just don't think the site is the best place to vent these types of frustrations.

well, the root problem (mind the pun) was that a root had wrapped around a clay sewer line and offset a portion of the clay pipe, causing a lip and resulting in many backups

at the time we just through it was roots in the pipe

but they sent out a guy, no power rotor.. he left, 2 new guys come, still missing something, leave, one more guy comes...

there's the replacement section and backflow valve

@Steven be glad that you didn't have to spend $8.5k for them to dig into your front yard to replace the pipe

like my neighbor

I had to spent 3k to dig in my basement :)

well, that 3k covered a bathroom rough in and new floor drain too

8.5k covered the fact the house was built in the 50's, and they laid the gas and water lines directly overhead the sewer line, so just to get to the sewer pipe they had to remove and replace the gas and water lines as well

yikes.

my water line was about 1' from the sewer, coming into the house anyways

My house was done the same way... see why I am moving ;-)

@Steven Why did they put the backflow preventer after the wye?

@Tester101 the plumber said this way they can auger out the sewer without going through the backflow -its just a plastic flapper and he said the auger will rip it up if they ever had to put one down

so the clean-out is closer to the exterior wall, then the backflow

Ohh. So that's just a cleanout then?

yea

10-4

I don't know if you can make it out in the pic, but the section they replaced went under the footing

Thought it was part of your bathroom rough-in.

that's on the other side of the house (under the window I just replaced)

here's the rough-in

(no jokes about the shape of the hole)

lol

I wish I had a picture of the tree roots -they were bigger then my arms (not that it says much)

@Steven this is why I will never plant a tree in my front yard

plural in my case....

big trees...

were there before I got there, and my city has some crazy by-law that for every tree you cut down you have to plant X new ones (I forget what X is, I think like 5)

@Steven Thats horrible

bored town council people on a power trip

oh man that's not even the worst of the by-laws.. don't even get me started on the dog-related ones (you can only use a leash up to Xm long)

$400 ticket for dog off leash!

@Steven where you live?

Richmond hill, ontario, canada

@Steven Just go plant a tree in front of 10 local lawmakers houses. Then you can cut your trees down.

just outside of Toronto

@Steven ahhh.... I watch all those canadian house hunting and home improvement shows... you guys are nuts for paying half a million for some of those piece of shit properties

it's all relative really... and market here is crazy right now

@Steven I don't see it being relative unless me and my wifes combined income is less than 2.5 times the value of my home

@maple_shaft It's half a million loonies, not dollars.

@Tester101 1 US dollar = 0.9807 Canadian dollars

> 1 US dollar = 0.9807 Canadian dollars

@Steven is that on the W side or E side?

Not that big a difference anymore

W or E of what? the country? Toronto?

@Steven of toronto, I know people in Ajax

The world realizes that Canada is a better place to live than most places in the US, as long as you don't mind the cold

north central of Toronto

W of Ajax

@maple_shaft 500,000 might not buy you all that much house in some good neighborhoods of DC

Ajax is a ~30min drive

right now, 500k would get you a nice attached house or smaller detached

though it really depends where exactly...

the gov't has been locking down mortgage rules to try and curb the jump in prices

@maple_shaft Toronto is south of some American cities, so "cold" is all relative... I wouldn't want to live in the Yukon (-40C winters) that's for sure

We're about the same as Chicago.

Buffalo gets more snow. And Detroit is North of Windsor.

speaking of snow, I gotta do maintenance on my snow blower one of these days..soon..

im betting on a bad winter.

Vancouver is super nice and does not get so cold

But it rains 200 days a year.

We started early, so I'll close up early.

Thanks for joining this week's PUT