Home Improvement

lamwaiman1988

09:30

Hi guys. I just bought some diatomaceous earth from ebay. I am wondering how to tell it from plain flour? I mean, if the merchant put plain flour into the bag instead of DE, how do I know?

BMitch

11:03

@lamwaiman1988 The pancakes will taste terrible :)

The Evil Greebo

11:30

For one thing, it doesn't taste like flower... ;)

@KarlKatzke Well the Mrs didn't quite understand just how much kitchen ceiling I was saying we needed to expose in order to laminate in a sister joist properly - but she does now and has agreed to it.

The Evil Greebo

13:13

Someone posted this as the work they finished on a homeowner reno that ran out of money then they bought it. Pretty but the first thing I thought was... what's supporting the ceiling?

Chris Cudmore

I suppose if you spun the ceiling fan fast enough you'd get some lift there.

The Evil Greebo

13:30

I asked about it : "
Yes it is structurally sound with correctly used beams per inspector. This model was built by a home builder in town who has built at least a dozen of this style and a couple more dozen of this style but with smaller square footage.
"

wax eagle

13:43

@TheEvilGreebo that's a lot of span to not have something, those beams are going to sag at some point

The Evil Greebo

Depends on the beam

wax eagle

sure it's fine now, and it's probably fine in the smaller sq footage homes, but ummm

The Evil Greebo

beam lengths are rated based on construction style and thickness

a laminated beam (LVL) that's 9/12" deep and 12" oc can handle 17' spans

Tester101

wax eagle

@TheEvilGreebo gotcha.

Tester101

13:48

Not all beams are wood.

The Evil Greebo

And then there's those ;)

wax eagle

was wondering if they'd have to be reinforced in some way :) or use steel as @Tester101 aludes to :)

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 well yeah, I'd consider "steel" to be included under "construction style" ;)

and theres those guys

Chris Cudmore

You can strengthen a wood beam by laminating a steel strap on the bottom. Or you could post tension it with a steel cable.

But you need an engineer to do it. They're not off the shelf parts.

The Evil Greebo

for that matter you can strengthen a wood beam by laminating another wood beam to it

Chris Cudmore

13:51

Yes, but then you end up with a 4 foot ceiling.

The Evil Greebo

ummmm

side to side dude

as in sistering

although that would be funny...

"Mind your head in hear, my husband reinforced the ceiling to put in a pool table, and now I have to cook while on my hands and knees..."

(Oh there's a dirty joke in there...)

Run away! It's @lsiunsuex

lsiunsuex

theres a former porn star that does a naked cooking show now - but the link escapes me at work :(

The Evil Greebo

@lsiunsuex I think there's a bit of a contradiction in that statement.

lsiunsuex

@TheEvilGreebo i have a real question today! not just venting about startups / my job

The Evil Greebo

If she's doing nude shows I wouldn't call her an "ex" star ;)

lsiunsuex

13:57

well, yeah, i guess :)

shes not having sex while cooking, shes just naked - so shes a nude model now

The Evil Greebo

But that's still technically pornographic

so... yay cooking porn!

lsiunsuex

sure i guess

Chris Cudmore

Strength of a beam is proportional to the second moment of inertia which is 1/12 wh^3. If you double the width, you double the strength. If you double the height, you octuple the strength. (allowing for buckling forces). Or you add a high-tensile member on the tensile thread of the beam, which ... Wait? pornography? Where?

The Evil Greebo

@ChrisCudmore LOOK! OVER THERE! NIPPLES!!!!

lsiunsuex

so, when we began to gut the 2nd floor, the attic had really, really, shitty insulation

The Evil Greebo

13:58

Oh, wait, never mind. They're a dude's.

lsiunsuex

r12 or some shit - bat insulation no paper backing

The Evil Greebo

ahem language ahem

Chris Cudmore

I have some nipples to show you.

wax eagle

@TheEvilGreebo really? you're gonna play the language card after that conversation :P

Chris Cudmore

The Evil Greebo

13:59

I never said a cuss word! ;)

@lsiunsuex You sound surprised at the no paper backing

thats proper for an attic

well... ok depends

its not vital, lets put it that way

lsiunsuex

so, now that we've been gutting the rooms, in the ceiling, i put the same stuff i used in the walls

r15 or something

this is wrong i'm guessing - how much do i need and does to much hurt me

The Evil Greebo

bit light for NY

lsiunsuex

i think i need r30 no paper

Chris Cudmore

Around here they use blown cellulose. It's either all paper backing, or no paper backing depending on how you look at it.

The Evil Greebo

the paper won't matter in the attic because the attic is "open"

you won't get enough moisture coming thru the ceiling to worry about frost/mold

lsiunsuex

14:02

and we used a vapor barrier if that maters

Chris Cudmore

And your vapour barrier should be up against the ceiling.

The Evil Greebo

but it won't hurt to barrier it either

Chris Cudmore

Not on top of the insulation.

The Evil Greebo

what you don't want is a moisture sandwich

paper down if you use it

lsiunsuex

it is, attached to the studs, right behind the drywall

The Evil Greebo

14:02

good

lsiunsuex

should i put a vapor barrier on the actual roof joists inside the attic?

Chris Cudmore

NO!

Tester101

@lsiunsuex I think there's a site where you can ask these types of questions, I'll try to find a link for you... Home Improvement.

Chris Cudmore

In cold climates, Vapour barriers always go on the inside of the insulation.

lsiunsuex

been there - those people are dicks :)

Chris Cudmore

14:04

Condensation forms on the warm side.

If you put the vapour barrier on the outside of the insulation, you end up soaking the insulation, rendering it useless.

I think you reverse this in the tropics.

lsiunsuex

ok, but so does more insulation hurt me? mind you - we are using the attic for storage - so on the ceiling joists of the 2nd floor inside the attic, we now have 3/4 inch plywood

plywood has some insulating value, no ?

Chris Cudmore

Don't compact the insulation, and make sure you have air flow under the plywood.

lsiunsuex

ok

The Evil Greebo

@ChrisCudmore What he said.

Chris Cudmore

Squeezing more in doesn't help, it hinders.. But if you have space, it will never hurt.

The Evil Greebo

14:06

I'd lay down 12" of blown in insulation over top of your fiberglass

Chris Cudmore

Not if he's using it for storage.

The Evil Greebo

but make sure your soffits stay clear

Tester101

3/4" ply is R0.94.

Chris Cudmore

I'd find another storage location.

The Evil Greebo

@ChrisCudmore true but you can add more where there isn't storage

@ChrisCudmore in this scenario a vapor barrier is much more important

lsiunsuex

14:07

@ChrisCudmore i wish - shes f'ing insane when it comes to halloween decorations - is the majority of the stuff up there... and the basement is full with baking / christmas shit

moving to the garage is an option, but the roof needs to be replaced (leaks) and i just haven't had the time / money yet to do a complete tear off

Chris Cudmore

You know, you could have stopped typing at "insane" We would have got the point. For that matter, you could have stopped typing at "She".

lsiunsuex

stay on topic! no complaining today (crazy red heads, f'ing mumble mumble mumble)

ok, r30 if i can fit it, dont compress it and keep the sofits clear - if theres paper, put it against the vapor barrier and plywood has shit for r-value

The Evil Greebo

if you have a vapor barrier then peel off the paper

lsiunsuex

ok

The Evil Greebo

or buy un backed

Chris Cudmore

14:12

@TheEvilGreebo Yeah. Or that. Much better idea.

lsiunsuex

right - well, used what i had left over in the walls - so yeah, i'll buy actual attic insulation

The Evil Greebo

but you won't get R-30 to fit in a standard cavity in an attic

Chris Cudmore

R-30 is 9 1/2 inches thick.

lsiunsuex

older house - real 2x4's used as ceiling joists

The Evil Greebo

when we were converting our attic to storage we laminated 2x12's to our existing ceiling joists

lsiunsuex

14:13

i've been replacing them with dimensional 2x6's but still not enough to fit 9 inches

The Evil Greebo

we blew in insulation to the top of the joists and put plywood down on top

and blew it deeper where we weren't putting the higher joists

well I say laminated

in actually we just nailed them along side

we weren't trying for stronger structure just bigger cavities

lsiunsuex

so maybe i'll use r15 - finish all the rooms, clear out the attic, blow in insulation to fill the voids, then put my plywood back in

Chris Cudmore

Or, Convert to a different religion, and then you can get rid of all the Halloween and Christmas stuff.

The Evil Greebo

lol

lsiunsuex

Scientology! but then she'll fill the attic with little green space men figurines

Chris Cudmore

14:17

Heck, even certain sects of Christianity don't celebrate those holidays.

Good article in this months Wired on Anonymous and Scientology. More on Anonymous.

lsiunsuex

duckbrand.com/Products/weatherization/attic-cover.aspx

what started the conversation today about loosing heat through the ceiling

Chris Cudmore

wired.com/threatlevel/2012/07/ff_anonymous/all

The Evil Greebo

@lsiunsuex Hail Zenu!

wax eagle

@lsiunsuex I hear yah

Chris Cudmore

14:33

Tester101

@ChrisCudmore That would be a "d" trap.

Chris Cudmore

maple_shaft

?!?!?!

Chris Cudmore

All connections in a junction box? Well Ok then!

maple_shaft

jesus wept

Tester101

14:35

@ChrisCudmore You're not over the box wire limit, if you don't put the lid on.

lsiunsuex

a javascript array starts at index 0 or 1

maple_shaft

the nuts aren't even taped up

lsiunsuex

?

maple_shaft

@lsiunsuex 0

wrong chat room though

Chris Cudmore

maple_shaft

14:36

LOL

WTFF

Chris Cudmore

@lsiunsuex You can avoid the complexity of Arrays by using variable names like x1, x2, x3, x4 and eval()

wax eagle

@ChrisCudmore ffs

lsiunsuex

god, here we go

a simple indexing question leads to how to use arrays

maple_shaft

How much would a good electrician charge per hour? I need to hire one to fix something that could take either 5 seconds or 5 hours

Chris Cudmore

Around here, it's 300 bucks for a half day. But they'll do pretty well whatever you want in that time -- Except repair drywall.

maple_shaft

14:39

home inspection report found a wire loose from one of the breakers in my box, I think I remember disconnecting this breaker when I first bought the place because this circuit was just a single switch and single outlet, and the outlet kept shorting

The Evil Greebo

@ChrisCudmore Nice curves

Chris Cudmore

Just checked my reference. It's 0-indexed.

maple_shaft

outlet is on the first floor, he may need to run a line up through the basement, shouldn't need to cut drywall I would think

worried about it though... why the hell would this one breaker only have a single outlet on that circuit? And why do I not see a wire coming up to it from the basement? It is like it is coming down from upstairs, but all of my outlets work upstairs! O_o

Tester101

@ChrisCudmore I knew a girl like that once.

maple_shaft

I am confuzzled

Chris Cudmore

14:44

@Tester101 What is it with girls and drywall repair? The just won't do it no matter how much you beg.

The Evil Greebo

@maple_shaft Is the outlet under a window?

maple_shaft

@TheEvilGreebo no

The Evil Greebo

is the outlet on a switch?

maple_shaft

@TheEvilGreebo I believe so

The Evil Greebo

thats why it comes from above

power to switch first, outlet 2nd

Tester101

14:45

@TheEvilGreebo Are we playing 20 questions?

maple_shaft

@TheEvilGreebo AHhhh!!! Your a genius!

2

ty

Tester101

Wait... Does that count as a question?

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 Are you animal, vegetable, or incompetent?

maple_shaft

Incompetent

^^ me

The Evil Greebo

@maple_shaft That's what I keep TELLING people!!!

maple_shaft

14:46

@TheEvilGreebo That your a genius or that I am incompetent?

Tester101

an evil genius

The Evil Greebo

@maple_shaft Well, if you hover over what I said, it'll highlight what I was replying to... but you can go with both if you want... ;)

Chris Cudmore

maple_shaft

@TheEvilGreebo Well... if there was a short in that wire and it needed to be re run, wouldn't it be easier to just bypass the switch entirely? Then there is a nothing switch just sitting there...

The Evil Greebo

@maple_shaft You can do that and disconnect/remove the switch and put a blank cover on it.

but then you have live lines going to the box that aren't connected to anything

Tester101

14:51

Or just leave the switch, since NEC says there must be at least one switch that controls nothing.

3

The Evil Greebo

you could leave the switch in and disconnect the outlet branch at both ends and cap the wires together

on both ends, put white and black in a wirenut, showing the wire is dead

maple_shaft

0

Q: Two switches in same box, on different circuits

Is it acceptable by US NEC standards to have two switches in a double wall box that operate on entirely different circuits in a late 50's house?

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 I didn't know that was code! THAT explains the 2 dead ones in my front room!

Tester101

@maple_shaft Yes.

maple_shaft

@Tester101 ty

The Evil Greebo

14:53

@Tester101 LESS THAN 30 CHARACTERS! BURN HIM!!!!

maple_shaft

I would fix it myself but the buyers demanded that the work be performed by a licensed electrician

dont blame them

The Evil Greebo

good call on their part - they don't know you

maple_shaft

@TheEvilGreebo I barely trust myself with electrical

The Evil Greebo

I like making the pretty sparklies

hey Tester

installing gfci outlet in bathroom along with lighting

vanity light and ceiling light and fan (2 switches, 1 timer switch)

plus gfci all in same box

2 questions -

1) can I run all on same circuit

2) should I go to GFCI first or last?

(2 obviously not applying if 1 is no)

Tester101

NEC 2012 404.19 Inoperable switches. Each building shall contain a minimum of one inoperable switch. Exception: A building containing exactly one switch, shall be exempt.

3

maple_shaft

14:58

@TheEvilGreebo If it means anything, me and my father in law did exactly #1 when we remodeled my bathroom

The attic fan died after a few months however

could be unrelated

installed everything to run on GFCI load

not a single fuck was given

@Tester101 WHY?!

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo No. Maybe. Sometimes. Do you have any other receptacles in the bathroom?

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 there won't be, no

so lights and outlet should be seperate?

Matthew PK

1

Q: Two switches in same box, on different circuits

Is it acceptable by US NEC standards to have two switches in a double wall box that operate on entirely different circuits in a late 50's house?

electrical code-compliance

curse you, minimum character requirement!

"Yes, it is" was too short....

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo 210.11 Branch Circuits Required. (C) Dwelling Units. (3) Bathroom Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply bathroom receptacle outlet(s). Such circuits shall have no other outlets.

The Evil Greebo

ok so 20A for outlet.

dedicated

Tester101

15:04

Correct.

The Evil Greebo

lights & fan all ok on 15?

wax eagle

@MatthewPK do what Joel does, use HTML comments

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo Check fan installation manual.

Matthew PK

@TheEvilGreebo Yes, unless you have too many of them.

Tester101

6

A: Is GFCI protection required for a dedicated exhaust fan circuit?

The National Electrical Code (NEC) does not require bathroom exhaust fans to be GFCI protected, however, there is this bit in Article 110. 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. (B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used...

Matthew PK

15:05

@Tester101 They can still be on a single circuit, using a GFCI breaker if needed.

Tester101

@MatthewPK If the fan instructions call for 20A circuit, the fan must be on 20A circuit.

The Evil Greebo

of course

Matthew PK

@Tester101 Fair enough.

Tester101

The lights can go on same 20A circuit though.

Matthew PK

That would be one helluva bathroom exhaust fan

The Evil Greebo

15:06

actually I may install a 2nd outlet in that bathroom

we want to eventually add a heated towel rack and a plug in model will be easier in a finished space

otherwise I might rough the wiring out for a model that gets discontinued later

but that 2nd outlet will branch off of the gfci and be labelled

maple_shaft

@MatthewPK For those of us that like our bathroom fans to have the sucking power of a jet engine

Matthew PK

@TheEvilGreebo I always wondered why hot water outlets weren't used for this purpose.... a decorative pipe for your hot water, exposed as a towel rack...

Chris Cudmore

Then the water wouldn't be hot when it got to the tap.

Matthew PK

@maple_shaft Even a 2000 cfm range hood doesn't require 20A circuit :D

@ChrisCudmore Sure it would, just not as hot

Chris Cudmore

If you need that kind of ventilation, Remind me not to use the washroom after you.

Tester101

15:08

@TheEvilGreebo You can have as many receptacles on the 20A circuit as you need, and it still fits within 210.11 (C)(3). \

Matthew PK

I dunno about you, but I have to mix in cold water when I take a shower... I don't just turn on the hot :D

Chris Cudmore

Actually, running it on the shower feed might be a good idea.

I was thinking sink for some reason.

Matthew PK

@Tester101 Just remember that the more outlets you give, the more likely a woman is to plug in her hair dryer, curling iron, flat iron, etc all at the same time

Chris Cudmore

I've got kitchen counter and upstairs bathroom on the same circuit. Dry hair or coffee. Decide NOW.

// I'll get to that one day.

lsiunsuex

i keep my hot water tank at 160f - have come close to melting plastic in my sink

Chris Cudmore

15:13

I've got kids. I keep it just below scalding.

Matthew PK

I've been thinking I might want to install a point-of-use water heater just for my shower... anybody else done something like this?

lsiunsuex

god i hate people - rush rush rush to get something done - i'm done - when do you wanna meet? hows next week? FML.

wax eagle

@lsiunsuex that aggrivates me too. Our QA/Procedures guy is like that.

Tester101

@maple_shaft I was joking about the inoperable switches. There is no 404.19 in 2012 NEC.

Chris Cudmore

Chapter 404 is the famous "Not Found" chapter.

Matthew PK

15:18

404, not found.... bad dum tsss

@ChrisCudmore DAMN YOU FASTER TYPIST

Chris Cudmore

Victory is mine!

Tester101

Article 404 is switches.

404.1 Scope. The provisions of this article shall apply to all switches, switching devices, and circuit breakers where used as switches.

Chris Cudmore

It's the exception you put on it that makes it almost believable

I actually googled it, wondering if there was some larger context in which it would make sense.

lsiunsuex

so who lives in chicago and where is a nice place to goto dinner?

Matthew PK

chicago.stackexchange.com

Chris Cudmore

15:25

they have great fried chicken and toast.

Tester101

if (Hungry && InChicago && LikeItalian ) goto RiccardoTrattoria;

lsiunsuex

the website doesn't really say where the event is - 350 West Mart Plaza Drive
Chicago, IL 60654 - is that a convention hall or ?

Chris Cudmore

15:44

lmgtfy.com/?q=350+West+Mart+Plaza+Drive+Chicago%2C+IL+60654

It's a Holiday Inn

Tester101

@MatthewPK Please specify units when answering questions.

0

A: Plywood, MDF or Chipboard for painted bookshelves?

I would use MDF. It is uniform, takes paint well and doesn't warp. It also routes well. It should hold the weight I'd expect in a bookshelf (supported at both sides, about 30 wide and no deeper than 18) If you're really concerned with the sagging you might add a single center support bracket.

You're confusing people.

30cm is not very wide for a bookshelf, do you use 18mm mdf? — Walker 13 mins ago

Matthew PK

16:16

I forget that not everybody uses our ridiculous system of measurements

Chris Cudmore

I'm your next door neighbour, so I'm familiar with them. But the truth is that NOBODY else uses them.

The only reason we use them here at all is because we still manufacture the majority of our lumber for the US market.

Matthew PK

@ChrisCudmore I remember when I was doing some dealership software for Canada we were adapting the US market.... so, of course, the odometer in your vehicles is measured in K, but you still call it "mileage"

I called up our John Deere contacts and asked "what do you call mileage in Canada?" and he replied "We call it mileage, but we measure it in kilometers"

Chris Cudmore

Technically, it's called "Fuel Economy" and it's measured in L/100km.

Which is the inverse of MPG (with a constant of proportionality based on units)

Matthew PK

he said they call it "K" or "mileage".... I"m talking about the odometer

For example, my jeep has 46,000 miles

Though perhaps in AB and BC they're different

Chris Cudmore

No, you're probably right. But the dealer asks me "What's the Odometer Reading"

Which is evasive.

Speaking of which, I should hit 1/2 a light-second today or tomorrow.

Matthew PK

16:27

that is an appropriate measurement

But, then again, we went and standardized c in meters, an inherently Earthly measurement

Chris Cudmore

Well, then we went ahead and defined the metre in terms of C.

Matthew PK

by simply setting its inverse

just like a second

funny thing: even the defining metric for the meter is inaccurate because the planet is an oblate spheroid

Though defining everything is quantum absolutes makes for messy orders of magnitude :D

Chris Cudmore

Nope. A second is defined in terms of the ground state oscillation of Caesium. So we're not totally recursive.

Matthew PK

The is the adapted definition of a second.. defined as such after the "Second" was already in use

The Evil Greebo

17:15

@Tester101 thanks

and i assume no restriction on running bath lights and attic lights on same circuit since receptacle will be isolated?

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo I'm not sure what you're asking. The one 20A circuit can only feed receptacles in the bathroom. The other lighting circuit can be used to feed whatever lighting you want.

Without overloading the circuit, obviously.

The Evil Greebo

i'm asking if bath/attic lighting on one circuit is ok, got my answer :)

Tester101

17:33

So, NEC says...

404.14 Rating and use of snap switches. (E) Dimmer Switches. General-use dimmer switches shall be used only to control permanently installed incandescent luminaires unless listed for the control of other loads and installed accordingly.

If somebody installs a CFL in a luminaire controlled by a dimmer, should a home inspector call this out?

wax eagle

@Tester101 I would expect so, those aren't usually dimmable are they?

Niall C.

@Tester101 Good luck finding an inspector who'd even notice!

Tester101

17:49

@waxeagle What about Dimmable CFLs.

@NiallC. Good point.

wax eagle

@Tester101 in that case no problem right? NEC probably would need to update for that

Tester101

I guess a more ridiculous questions is. Should changing a light bulb require a permit, and/or be performed by an Electrician?

wax eagle

@Tester101 I'd be inclined to say no for the most part. But with more and more CFLs and them supposed to last longer and longer, light bulb changing should become occasional enough that needing a permit/contractor isn't an issue

Niall C.

Another Aussie here: A licensed "electrical contractor" is also OK (and usually cheaper). Also note that changing your lightbulbs is illegal under the same regulation (no joke). — MGOwen Jul 29 '10 at 7:22

Taken from here: diy.stackexchange.com/a/401/22

wax eagle

@NiallC. I remember seeing that

then again, I bought my house in Feb and have had no fewer than 4 CFLs burn out in that time (and I didn't even install them all right away :()

Matthew PK

18:28

@Tester101 No, because that specifies "general-use dimmers" which, to me, implies rheostatic dimmers or variable-voltage dimmers.

I read it to mean that you can't use a dimmer switch to power an outlet which may be the line for a lamp

Tester101

Switch, General-Use. A switch intended for use in general distribution and branch circuits. It is rated in amperes, and it is capable of interrupting its rated current at its rated voltage.

@MatthewPK The wording is fairly specific "only to control permanently installed incandescent luminaires", I'm not sure there is much there to interpret.

Niall C.

@Tester101 If you handle the flag I just raised, I accidentally flagged the wrong post; it should have been the new answer.

Tester101

@NiallC. So I should just ignore that flag?

Niall C.

@Tester101 I think so, since it's not valid for the post it's on. Should I flag the post I originally intended it for?

Tester101

I converted the other answer to a comment, is that what you wanted to do?

Niall C.

18:39

@Tester101 Yup. Thanks, and sorry for the goof.

Tester101

No problem.

Pop quiz:

Question 1:

Can a circuit breaker be used as a switch?

lsiunsuex

no

Chris Cudmore

19:28

Technically, it can, but I'm not sure if it's legal.

lsiunsuex

technically cars can fly also but you dont see many people launching them off of a pier into the ocean, do you?

Tester101

@lsiunsuex Hollywood does it all the time.

lsiunsuex

its not a legal thing, its a wear and tear thing - circuit breakers i believe are only designed to a tripped x amount of times. 100 pops into my mind, but it could be more or less

Chris Cudmore

No. A circuit breaker, without modification will work as a switch.

And retail establishments do it all the time for lighting.

lsiunsuex

our transfer switch at the office is only good for something like 100 transfers i think until it needs maintenance

Tester101

19:31

@ChrisCudmore Is correct.

404.11 Circuit Breakers as Switches. A hand-operable circuit breaker equipped with a lever or handle, or a power-operated circuit breaker capable of being opened by hand in the event of a power failure, shall be permitted to serve as a switch if it has the required number of poles.

Question 2:

The Evil Greebo

dang i missed Q1

Tester101

What provisions are there when using a breaker as a switch?

Chris Cudmore

It must be in the shower to ensure proper grounding.

The Evil Greebo

It has to be painted yellow.

With a hedgehog sticker on the tip.

Chris Cudmore

I'd say they can't be tied to other breakers.

Tester101

19:33

@lsiunsuex See NECs definition of a circuit breaker:

Circuit Breaker. A device designed to open and close a circuit by nonautomatic means and to open the circuit automatically on a predetermined overcurrent without damage to itself when properly applied within its rating.

Especially this bit "without damage to itself"

lsiunsuex

Q2 answer: < 220volts

The Evil Greebo

No real idea.

maybe... no other switches down-line from the circuit breaker?

kinda like no other CBs but more general

Tester101

I guess this is a tough one, without actually knowing/reading the code.

1.) Must clearly indicate "on" and "off".

2.) Must be marked SWD or HID.

240.83 Marking. (D) Used as Switches. Circuit breakers used as switches in 120-volt and 277-volt fluorescent lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked SWD or HID. Circuit breakers used as switches in high-intensity discharge lighting circuits shall be listed and shall be marked as HID.

The Evil Greebo

SWD/HID ?

Tester101

Switch Duty/High-density discharge

240.81 Indicating. Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open “off” or closed “on” position. Where circuit breaker handles are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the “up” position of the handle shall be the “on” position.

The Evil Greebo

19:38

hey, is up supposed to be on in general? I mean is that code?

Niall C.

@TheEvilGreebo Toggle switches often (always?) have "on" and "off" embossed on the toggle.

The Evil Greebo

I think old ones may not always

but not the point

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo Hmm... I'd have to look that up, I'm not sure. I think so other wise it would be "NO" and "FFO".

Question 3:

How common is it for breakers to be marked SWD?

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 Jef-fuh-fuh?

@Tester101 Subjective. Impossible to answer.

Provide some sense of scope

Chris Cudmore

This isn't residential stuff.

Tester101

19:45

@TheEvilGreebo If you walked into the store and picked up a random breaker. Would you expect it to be labeled SWD, or would you expect to have to ask for an SWD breaker or visit a electrical supply store to find one?

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 I've never noticed so I wouldn't have any expectation either way.

Tester101

@ChrisCudmore Why not? I could use a breaker in a subpanel to control the lights in my garage.

OK. @TheEvilGreebo Go to Home Depots website, select 5 random single pole breakers, and read the label. Then tell us how many of the 5 are labeled SWD.

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 No.

;)

So how common is it?

Tester101

I'd say, fairly common.

Niall C.

@TheEvilGreebo I've got that texture on some of my walls; it can draw blood if I'm not careful

The Evil Greebo

19:54

I'd like to retroactively change my answer to 100%.

@NiallC. not mine - too much paint, completely rounded them all out.

i tried using my multi-tool to cut the points down and it kinda works but its slow

but leaves me with a rough surface a single skim coat can fix (as opposed to 7 layers it would need now)

I did a wall like that once - applied the mud vertically and it created ... waves. Then applied horizontally the next day to fill the wave valleys... took a week to fully cure.

@Tester101 next question?

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo No more. That's it.

The Evil Greebo

aww

i was enjoying mocking my own ignorance

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo Never really noticed the SWD on breakers before, sort of blew my mind when I started actually looking for it. Just thought I'd share with the class.

The Evil Greebo

@Tester101 Next time you wanna share something with the class, bake brownies.

Not that I didn't appreciate it. I just like brownies.

Tester101

@TheEvilGreebo I made cookies, but couldn't figure out how to jam them into the ethernet cable.

The Evil Greebo

20:02

Slacker

Karl Katzke

20:19

So, if you're going to buy a work truck in Texas, you might as well go all out. I'm now going to be the proud owner of an F-350 with a 7.3 liter turbo diesel... a motor that is also used in semis.

(1997, it's a clapped out work truck, but I"m not going far with it.)

The Evil Greebo

clapped out ?

Karl Katzke

Used up. 250k miles on it, needs maintenance items serviced pretty much across the board.

Will never be pretty, will never be a show truck.

The Evil Greebo

ah

Karl Katzke

It ain't there to haul ass, it's there to haul shit.

wax eagle

@KarlKatzke at 250k cars are just getting broken in :)

Karl Katzke

20:29

@waxeagle Yeah, I was specifically looking for this engine because the engine can go to 700k. The ford around it? Eh, it'll rust away in a few more years...

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