last day (18 days later) » 

05:01
4
A: Using 有 vs 是 to describe an object

dan一点 makes 有 valid. According to dictionaries, one of the usage of 有 is to describe extent (how large, how big, how severe, etc.). E. g. 他有两米高. (not 他有高). In your case, 他有一点儿严厉 makes sense, whilst 他有严厉 does not because it doesn't specify the extent(一点儿). 是 + adj is used for emphasis, denoting ...

是+adj is emphasize, but is not acknowledgement. 是 + adj is almost always followed by a "but". For example, 他是严厉,但都是为你好。他是聪明,但是太懒。Here, 是 can be translated as "surely". The previous example can be translated as: Surely he is strict, but that is all for your sake. Surely he is smart, but he is too lazy.
dan
dan
@River It depends on how/where you use it or what you want to express. Context is key. It could be used to repeat/emphasize what others has just said. E. g. A: 你不是说她漂亮吗?B: 她是漂亮啊。Not necessarily always followed by a 'but'. Of course, your examples are valid too. However, we should not limit the scope.
no. 她是漂亮啊 is an incomplete sentence for me. It sounds like you have some hesitation if you stop here. You would say 她很漂亮啊 instead of 她是漂亮啊 if you agree.
You can say "她是真的漂亮", with "是真的" together. Or "是,她很漂亮", where 是 means "yes" instead of "is". But not "她是漂亮“
dan
dan
@River Looks like you are not familiar with the usage. Not sure if a dictionary definition can convince you. Anyways, please refer to sense 7 in this dictionary. 7. 加重语气,有“的确”、“实在”的意思:天气~冷。 zdic.net/hans/%E6%98%AF
@River This is another dictionary definition from my cellphone. 用于形容词或动词性的谓语前,“是”重读,表示坚决肯定,含有“的确”“实在”的意思 这间房子是太小 / 他见解是高明 / 我是有事,不是偷懒。 You can find any decent dictionary that would tell you the usage.
"是+ADJ" does not in itself convey any emphasis. But in contexts where "是" is unnecessary then it conveys emphasis. For some examples with absolutely no emphasis: "他是无辜的" and "她是独一无二的" and "它是连续的". I believe that native speakers do not use "是" with comparable adjectives under normal conditions (hence it conveys emphasis when used); it seems everyone says "她很漂亮" and never something that means merely "she is quite beautiful" in-between "she is very beautiful" and "she is somewhat beautiful". But native speakers do use "是•的" with uncomparable adjectives as in my 3 examples.
05:01
@user21820: Good observation. But the distinction cannot be comparative vs non-comparative adjective. Using OP's example (and modify a little), 他是严厉 has the apparent format of noun + 是 + non-comparative adjective. Except 是 here is for emphasis. 是...的 are good cases to bring up. I think they are such because ...的 tend to be verb/noun made into adjectives. Plus, though characters modifying grammatical category is nothing knew, 是...的 could be a bit of imported grammar historically speaking.
dan
dan
@user21820 Your examples demonstrates another usage of 是, which is the linking verb. E. g. 这书是我的。Well, my examples demonstrates the usage of 'emphasis'. E. g. 天气是冷。If you remove 的 in your examples, they would become emphasitic. Eg. 他是无辜。他是独一无二。
@user21820 Another point is 无辜 is adj, but 无辜的 is not. 无辜的 is more like a pronoun replacing 无辜的人 in your example. So, your examples didn't demonstrate the usage of 是 + adj. 我是无辜 is the example that demonstrates 是 + Adj.
dan: I didn't mean that "无辜的" is an adjective, which is why I explicitly stated "是•的" in my last sentence in my above comment. However, for some reason I forgot that you are in fact talking about "是" without "的". Well, I find "他是聪明" and "他是无辜" funny. Can you provide actual articles written by native chinese speakers that contain the phrase? I just did a google search, and this article came up instead.
@Argyll: "严厉" is comparative. One can say "他比她更严厉". I don't know whether historically "是•的" is imported or not. All I have is experience in listening to native speakers speak.
dan
dan
@user21820 I can't find the exact sentence 他是无辜, but dictionaries have a clear definition with the similar example : 天气是冷. I don't know why people take issue with the usage. It's quite a common usage for me. It's quite natural to me indeed.
Honestly, I have never heard native speakers say "天气是冷". As per my previous comment, they instead say "天气很冷" or "天气有点冷" or "天气冷了" (it has gotten cold). How about you provide a native speaker article with the phrase "天气是冷"? By the way, are you a native speaker?
dan
dan
@user21820 Yes, I'm a native speaker. If you don't know it as a native speaker, then you should also learn it because 天气是冷 appears even in official dictionary 新华字典. If you don't believe in 新华字典,then you should not believe in any articles at all. Haha, have fun!
05:01
Dictionaries do not necessarily reflect the common people's language. It's strange that you seem to assume otherwise. I ask for articles because they reflect how people actually speak. If you say that everyone in your community use the exact sentence "天气是冷" in speech or writing, then we can consider it a dialectical variation. But if nobody does it, citing a dictionary is meaningless. I hope you didn't mean to be slightly aggressive in your last comment.
dan
dan
@user21820 I don't know which areas you are in. I've been in lots of areas in China. Now in Shanghai. let me try to find the proper written examples if I have time later.
@user21820 Btw, what appears in 新华字典 is considered as a standard Mandarin, not a dialect.
 
9 hours later…
13:40
@dan Ok thank you very much. I'm fine with anecdotal evidence if you say you've heard a few native speakers other than yourself say it. By the way, it's not that I have a problem with that particular dictionary. It's just that I've noticed that almost every lexicon in every language I have studied has idiosyncracies and don't correspond well with actual usage.
What appears in a lexicon for Mandarin will naturally be affected by the dialect of the compilers of that lexicon. Ideally, the best lexicons are corpus-based, and would not list any meaning that is not empirically attested in a large corpus of standard speech and writing. Not many lexicons are like this.
14:04
In fact, here is some corpus evidence. From the Chinese Internet Corpus of 280 million words there are only 4 occurrences of "天气是冷" and all of them are not complete sentences. So I think I'm justified in rejecting that 新华字典 entry.
 
1 hour later…
dan
dan
15:18
@user21820 You can challenge every dictionaries in China, but not 新华字典 published by商务印书馆 and the author is 中国社会科学院语言研究所词典编辑室. It's been well proofread. No dictionaries in China can compete it. Usually, what appears in 新华字典 is considered as the standard mandarin unless it has <方>, which indicates a dialect usage. But this usage doesn't has <方>, which means it's the usage in standard mandarin.
@dan That is an argument from authority, which is a common fallacy.
dan
dan
@user21820 I don't know about you. but this usage seems everywhere to me
@dan You said "seems". I asked you whether you actually heard/read it from native speakers besides yourself or not.
I even provide corpus evidence that it does not exist as a complete sentence.
It doesn't matter whether china authorities say it is standard mandarin. It only matters to me whether the people actually use it.
dan
dan
I lived in China for decades.
I heard it often
do you accept 天气是冷了 ?
@dan No. I explicitly asked about "天气是冷。" as a complete sentence, not about anything else.
dan
dan
15:26
@user21820 I found this example: 他是厉害, 这么强大的敌人都能打败
do you think the usage 他是厉害 is problematic?
or 这本书是好, 写得很全面。
It is not problematic in any of those examples, because they are not complete sentences.
dan
dan
Do you buy in those examples?
it can be a complete sentence. 他是厉害。 这本书是好。
@dan No I dispute that.
I can explain my viewpoint somewhat, if you wish. It specifically tells me that you will not find complete sentences with the use of 是 that I reject.
dan
dan
I also found 他见解是高明.
@dan I don't believe you. Google does not turn such a sentence up.
Instead, it is "他见解是高明,我比不上", fitting my viewpoint perfectly.
dan
dan
15:36
她长得是美。
⑧茶花是美啊。
@dan Again, no such complete sentence on the entire internet. Please stop giving non-existent examples...
dan
dan
五、
“是
+
谓词性词语”的结构分析

(一)是
+
动词或动词性词语”的句子和“是
+
形容词或形容词性词语”的句子。例
如:

甲:①他是走了。
(孙淑新《往事》


②信是早收到了。
(鲁迅《故乡》


③当今世界的主旋律是在全球性智力竞赛中高速发展生产力。

④大王,这是诬陷。
(郭沫若《屈原》


⑤他是知道的。

⑥他是刚到的。

⑦美就是这样创造出来的。
(杨朔《茶花赋》


乙:⑧茶花是美啊。

⑨阳光是如此的好。
@dan The "啊" makes it different, so it doesn't count.
Quoting ten thousand lexicons does not make the moon become cheese.
dan
dan
又如运用否定形式来证明的方式局限性也不少。首先有些“是
+
谓词性词语”的句
子,否定副词“不”既可放在“是”前,也可放在“是”后。例如:
“他是知情的”
。否
定形式既可说成“这种药不是坏的”
,也可说成“这种药是不坏的”
。其次用双重否定的
句式,
“是”前“是”后都可以加“不”
。如“他是知道的”可说成“他不是不知道的”

“这个地方是清静”可以说成“这个地方不是不清静”
加重语气,有“的确”、“实在”的意思:天气~冷。in zdic.net/hans
If those still don't count, I have to stop here. believe what you believe.
5 mins ago, by user21820
Quoting ten thousand lexicons does not make the moon become cheese.
They all copy one source.
@dan I believe empirical data. I don't believe made-up opinions that happen to get snuck into lexicons.
dan
dan
15:46
May I know which area you are from?
@dan I unfortunately cannot tell you because I sincerely wish to stay anonymous due to having witnessed serious real-life harassment of other users on SE.
But I can tell you that I have lived for decades in a community with native chinese speakers.
And in my opinion, when native speakers use the construction "N是A,...", the "..." specifies the nature of "A", and that is why the construction is permitted.
But never just "N是A。" as a complete sentence. Unless perhaps with exceptional emphasis on "是".
dan
dan
it indeed need to emphasize 是 otherwise it sounds wrong. I already addressed this in my answer
@dan If you notice I didn't really dispute your answer. But I disputed your claim about certain complete sentences spoken by native speakers, because it was too exceptional to ever occur in real life.
Here's an analogy. Suppose I claim that native English speakers say "I great." all the time.
It would only be right to reject my claim.
dan
dan
my friend often say something like. A: 这女孩真漂亮。 B:这女孩是漂亮
@dan A, of course. B, are you sure? Not in response to an inquiry? Not as part of a longer statement?
dan
dan
15:56
a:他篮球打的真好!b:他篮球打的是好。
And it's "my friend often says".
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you making a statement or just throwing out random phrases some of which are wrong?
dan
dan
you think it's wrong. but that's what we usually use. anyway. I'm gonna quite this chat. it goes meaningless.
Well your last two are just wrong, from an 'educated dialect' standpoint. It should be "得" not "的".
And verbs with adverbs are not the same as nouns with adjectives, so it's not even relevant to this discussion!
@dan I'll just note that what people use spans a spectrum of dialects, and dialects can have wrong bits. Chinese is not the only language like that. English too. If you hear/read enough you will come across entire communities using "have dove" and "should of" instead of "have dived" and "should've".
And by the way, "goes meaningless" is wrong; you want to say "it is meaningless". I also assume you know the difference between "quite" and "quit".
 
1 hour later…
17:24
Hmm. Let's not give up on each other's viewpoint. Remember that we are hooked to the topic because we like it. That's a rare commonality that deserves to be remembered.
I can confirm that all 4 of 这女孩真漂亮, 这女孩是漂亮, 他篮球打的真好, 他篮球打的是好 are commonly said. (I am also inclined to conclude that all 4 are colloquial only.)
These examples, however, don't conclude 漂亮 or 好 are adjectives. By extension they also don't conclude linking verb + adjective are a thing in Chinese
@Argyll Are you also confirming that people incorrectly use "的" instead of "得"?
yes, but more on that later
Ok. Anyway I don't understand why you think "漂亮" and "好" are not adjectives in those examples.
Adjectives -- a very successful categorization in English -- are words descriptive quality that decorates nouns. In English, utility of this definition is enhanced by the stable ordering of article + adjective + noun. (By stable I mean you do not have large quantity of cases with a different order. You dont at all.)
words OF descriptive quality *
@Argyll No that's not what I mean by "adjective" at all. I am using the standard linguistic notion of adjectives, which in English has fixed word order but has very flexible word order in other languages.
17:30
Let's attempt to use what's successful in English for Chinese: in the noun phrase 漂亮的女孩, 漂亮的 is the adjective, 女孩 is the noun
@Argyll Well I don't agree. And I bet most linguists won't either.
patience please
if you have common usage of "漂亮的" to decorate nouns, you list 漂亮的 under adjective
well, your bet is definitely wrong
again, please patience
漂亮 by itself is a descriptive quality. But that alone does not guarantee the usage as adjective
Please cite linguistic opinion that "漂亮" is not an adjective in "漂亮的女孩".
just like "beauty" can be a descriptive quality but is not used as a noun
right, so i will comment on that shortly
You can yourself as well as anyone propose structures that may become more productive and effective in various measures. The reason the structure I used is productive is not only what I am about to say as the structure of English sentences being commonly accepted, it is because now you have a system of differentiating adjectives vs non adjectives, and a person (or a computer program) can use that to predict the position of adjectives in English sentences which will be legible
-- without having encountered them
That brings about a natural authority to such a system
The system is: an English sentence (without dependent clauses) consists of a verb phrase + noun phrase
I need to go, but here is evidence that my view of the grammatical function of the above words as adjectives is the 'correct' one. As you said, there can be many different consistent descriptions of the same system, but some are simpler than others. Mine is the simplest.
"大朵美丽的花" has two adjectives "大朵" and "美丽". The "的" is a grammatical particle used to join the adjectives to the noun phrase. It is not part of the adjectives.
17:36
i will finish my point you are welcome to come back later. and please share the example
right, i haven't mentioned the other possible structure is to considered 的 as inferred
you can also alternatively say 大朵美丽 in reality is 大朵、美丽
@Argyll That's what I meant by "two adjectives".
which makes 大朵美丽的 an adjective phrase consisting of noun (repeatable) + 的
@Argyll What do you mean? "美丽" is certainly not a noun...
is beauty a noun?
Yes. But "beauty" does not translate to "美丽" in chinese.
Not necessarily, at least.
17:40
You see, the definition of adjective as what decorates noun English does not come from some sort of consensus process. There is a natural bias towards what is useful and productive. It is that bias that makes the definition.
I am not aware of the same kind of structure having been proposed for Chinese
I understand that. As I said above, I agree with you about that idea. I just think that mine is actually simpler.
Let's not use "美丽", as it is not a very clear-cut example.
Let's use "硬".
It's certainly not a noun.
But we can still try what works in English -- it's what Chinese know better anyway
and see how well things work in Chinese
But I don't agree it works well in chinese, because treating "的" as a particle makes the explanation much much simpler.
Just like we have apostrophe for possessive in English.
的 can be possessive for sure
if you connect that into adjective-ized words
without 的,the remaining is not adjective
I'm not talking about Chinese right now. Let's look at English first.
17:44
grammatical categories cannot be tied to semantics
"The man's friend" should be parsed as ( The man 's friend ) where "'s" is a particle. It should not be parsed with "man's" being an adjective.
when you say "Let's use "硬". It's certainly not a noun." that sounds like you are mixing in semantics
you wont be productive if you originate from semantics
you wont predict positions
orderings
I'm not mixing semantics. Every lexical unit has a set of possible functions each of which has both grammatical and semantic aspect.
This is standard linguistics.
(And I'm not using "aspect" in the technical sense here.)
In "the man's friend", man's is an adjective phrase. but it is colloquail
No it's not colloquial, and I'm surprised you can even suggest that.
This is standard formal English.
17:46
that i dont want to argue. in general, one can argue anything using 's is not standard formal English
And no linguist will parse "man's" as a single lexical unit.
it is not used in any law documents
it is not used in scientific discourse
etc
i am not going to argue that lexical units having both semantic and syntax built in. i will even say you can't fully separate the two
none of that makes it necessary or productive to originate categories from semantics
that is what was done historically and they were not any useful in predicting legible sentences
also terrible in producing contradictory cases
if you process man's as a single unit, it is an adjective
This is ridiculous. The possessive particle "'s" is used everywhere in formal English including in US law. Here is a big bold example:
> 34 U.S. Code SUBCHAPTER XI— PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS’ DEATH BENEFITS
in the title
and then you proceed to read the clauses. NONE do
And don't even get me started on scientific discourse. If you even bother to search scientific articles you will find it everywhere.
17:50
i dont know how many law clauses you've read
i have read lots
i dont know how many papers you read. i've read lots
that's where i draw the conclusion
i would love to be able to use it unrestricted
but at best, ppl accept 's after person
ERR...
> In case of a mentally incompetent person, notice hereof shall be given the guardian or other person having custody or control of such person or, if none, to such person’s nearest relative if known.
I just randomly clicked around in the US law and I can find it.
Your claim is just ridiculous.
yes, i just said that didnt i
person's <-- yes
anything else's <--- perfectly legible. but no
Lol. Give me a few more clicks then.
sure
> (a) Whenever any veteran (admitted as a veteran), or a dependent or survivor of a veteran receiving care under the penultimate sentence of section 1781(b) of this title, shall die while a member or patient in any facility, or any hospital while being furnished care or treatment therein by the Department, and shall not leave any surviving spouse, next of kin, or heirs entitled, under the laws of the decedent’s domicile
Look I am a native English speaker and I have read thousands if not tens of thousands of formal articles.
17:54
I believe you
And I am also a scientific researcher.
I read tons of formal papers all using the possessive particle.
Of course we try to avoid it sometimes.
Can you explain why then the use of 's is not universal?
But it is standard English.
@Argyll It is universal!
's is common
but "of" is more common
in that law, 's is exclusively person related
I can explain.
17:56
this is ofc not the only law that does that
We are taught that that possessive construct is not entirely formal. However, this is prescriptive, and does not reflect actual formal usage of English.
So in formal writing we native writers sometimes try to avoid it. But when it gets unwieldy to avoid, we don't.
Fair enough
Anyway putting formality aside, there is a very good reason to parse the particle separately.
I shouldn't have gotten sidetracked into the formality discussion.
Still, though I'd like to use it unrestricted, after what you said, I still have to avoid it....
well it helps
helps me. not the discussion :P
what is the reason to parse man's separately as man and 's?
The reason to parse separately is that we native speakers understand it as separate. We learn (both from teachers and from experience) that whenever we have a noun N, we can form the construct "N's X" to mean "X pertaining to N".
This does not just include possession. Hence "pertaining".
18:01
That doesn't make man's together not an adjective or adjective phrase?
For example: "love's beauty", "food's taste"...
@Argyll Adjectival phrase of a certain sort I can accept. Adjective no, because there are grammatical restrictions that differ between the two.
well, let's not go to adjective phrase for all noun's either. You were saying man's as the same lexical unit. In that case i'd try adjective
it breaks down the definition of phrase a bit because 's is not a word. and phrase is typically defined using categories of words
grammatical categories of words*
@Argyll Well I think we clearly should not artificially require a phrase to be made up of words, just as we do not force punctuations to be words.
Different languages have different kinds of grammatical particles that are not words.
Certainly not in general. maybe even in English it doesnt work either due to 's and perhaps other things.
So back to 漂亮的
If you say "漂亮的" is an adjectival phrase I can go along with that.
I didn't realize you might be meaning that.
18:06
well, if you list that in a dictionary as a word
and list it as adjective
your reader will be just as successful as considering that as a phrase
(in predicting legible Chinese sentences and in comprehending complex ones)
@Argyll I disagree with that. As I mentioned above, there are restrictions for adjectival phrases of this sort that don't apply to adjectives.
Could you remind me what they are?
You have to start with words somewhere in your definition of various categories phrases. Otherwise, it'd be recursion without base case
(now that you mention you are in academia)
For sentence components, you dont use word categories at all. More productive to use phrases only.
So i am not able to realize the potential restrictions -- at least not quickly
One major issue is that across very different natural human languages we are allowed to use adjectives to modify a noun as well as use them as the object of an equative verb.
as line the sentence subject + be + adjective?
as in*
This breaks down if you force "漂亮的" to be an adjective, because "漂亮" also should be due to "那朵花很漂亮".
So you would get both "漂亮" and "漂亮的" as adjectives, which then breaks your other desired construction with the adjectival modifiers.
18:14
But you can't drop 很 in 很漂亮 in that usage. Also I dont think the linking verb + adjective structure is universal
@Argyll It is universal across languages. Many languages are actually unlike English in not requiring an explicit equative verb!
So the very construction in chinese that is odd from English perspective is less odd from a more general view.
So I shouldn't have said "the object of an equative verb", without qualifying that it is an implicit equative verb.
urhh. You just said linking verb + adjective structure is not universal
right. is that an attempt to keep SOV?
No it's not; I didn't intend to imply word order.
In ancient greek for example it doesn't matter whether you use "N A" or "A N" in a complete sentence as both mean "N is A".
So without assuming implicit linking verb, the structure of verb phrase + noun phrase making into sentences will break down. That'd be an observation from 那朵花漂亮
(we should try dropping 很 in composing examples if we can. that makes it look as if 很 plays a special role)
@Argyll Why should we not assume implicit linking verb, when the evidence is there? In particular, the verb appears whenever we want to express some verbal aspect that the implicit verb does not.
18:19
well, equally, why should we
As I said, the evidence is there, as in my next sentence.
The verb is dropped in many languages when it isn't necessary.
But in every other case, whether to convey tense or aspect or mood, it shows up.
In English, we force it to show up all the time.
That's just how English is.
@Argyll "很" is a complicated business I don't want to go into yet.
Alright I really need to go now. Sorry for leaving in the middle of our conversation.
I'll be back! =)
If you enforce the labeling of adjective due to usage in linking verb + said word. And in that, you are required to assume implicit linking verb. You would need to differentiate adjective that can decorate noun and ones that are not, is that right?
Ya, please come back :) I should hurry up on my work stuffs too :P
@Argyll No, in my explanation "漂亮" is an adjective and "漂亮的" is not, and every adjective can be the object of the (implicit or explicit) equative verb. That's it for now!
ah right. ofc. that's the other possibility
There are two things we can do. One is to motivate the assumption of implicit linking verb. btw, in that structure, topic + comment structure is not a real thing. Comment is the adjective phrase. Linking verb is not seen due to being implicit.
In this version, I'd prefer to make the verb optional instead of saying a verb is implicit.
There is one more problem: the verb goes with the comment. Not the subject. Yet at least the version I learned is to group verb with the subject and say that's a verb phrase. (That's successful in English.)
The other thing we can do is to try finding literature where recursive grouping of sentence component is done. But that's hard cuz we need a (good) review paper to know the relative prevalence of various possibilities in different applications. Such a review paper would be rather specialised and just may not be there. You can probably find it in specific context with more readily.
* In this version, I'd prefer to make the verb optional instead of saying a verb is implicit. And say topic + comment or action is the actual top level structure. Comment and action both become verb phrase or however else you would name it most appropriately. Not verb phrase + noun phrase. That should change the resultant assignment of grammatical categories closer to what you see.

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