Discussion on question by Sergei Akbarov: Where can I find examples of fiefs that are not land?

Feeds

21:42

Q: Where can I find examples of fiefs that are not land?

In the Wikipedia article it is written that fiefs were not necessarily lands: However, not only land but anything of value could be held in fee, including governmental office, rights of exploitation such as hunting or fishing, monopolies in trade, and tax farms. Can anybody recommend me some re...

Jan

I do not have time to look up sources, but the Ikh Shabi in Outer Mongolia in the 19th century was mainly made up of nomadic households (it also consisted of some land in the northernmost corner of Mongolia, but most of the subject households were in other parts of the country)

Sergei Akbarov

@Jan will it be correct to say that there was feudalism in Mongolia?

Jan

Some Marxist historians say so.

Luiz

you ask for personal privileges and exceptions. e.g. in colonial Rio de Janeiro, the Sá family had the hereditary right to collect custom taxes for themselves (not for the state, they pocketed the money). But can we call this a 'fief'? Is this just a modern semantic question or there were documented juridic similarities? This I do not know.

ed.hank

I recall reading about a feudal title to a river crossing and the tolls generated, not sure if that counts as land or not.

user2448131

21:42

Possibly referring to serjeanty, such as the office of Queen's Champion.

Sergei Akbarov

@Luiz was this family obligated to provide any services to the king in exchange for this privilege? For example, did they pay something for this? If yes, then I think, this can be called a fief...

@Jan if you could give some references, that would be great. I would read about this.

@justCal yes, this is also an interesting example, although I am not sure that I understand the details. Wasn't that a service in exchange of some granted land?

user2448131

All these feudal definitions are sketchy to me, but the distinction might have been the immunity to scutage of the titleholder. You will have to determine 'what fits' your definition or not (and clarify that into your question when you do).

Sergei Akbarov

@ed.hank I think, this depends on who was the owner of the land with this river. If this was the same person, and he was obliged to serve somehow (or to pay to his senior) for this property then this right can be called a "land-form fief". Otherwise this seems to be exactly what I need, a fief which is not a land (if again this person was obliged to serve or to pay somehow for this priviledge). That is my understanding.

@justCal I thought this was a standard term... I would define a fief as a source of income which was granted to a person (a "vassal") by another person (a "seignior") under the terms of giving some services to the grantor (for example annual payment, or military service, etc.), and with the grantor's right to take back this source if he decides that this treaty was broken. Will this do?

Luiz

The Sá did not had direct obligations, but it ensured their loyalty. Taxing a small distant place would be difficult anyway. When the dutch invaded Angola and directly cut their commerce and custom profits, the Sá raised their own private army to kick the dutch from Luanda. Afterwards, for 150ys, every time they wrote to the court, after the usual compliments to the King, they reminded His Majesty of the services rendered by their forefathers in the Angolan war. After independence (when Rio become Brazil's capital), the new Emperor had to buy back their hereditary rights.

gktscrk

@ed.hank: Would the title have moved along with the river changing its course?

ed.hank

21:42

@SergeiAkbarov - if I recall the river crossing was near a city or maybe on the kings demense, and this family just had the rights to collect the toll. and yes i would assume he paid some fee up front to the king for his "rights" to collect tolls. kings were always short on cash. i will try and look for that reference for you later when i have time.

@gktscrk - i guess it would depend on how the title is written out, just like a title to land it all depends on the words and who has the power to enforce their will.

i would also say anyone that could afford a title to collect tolls or mint coins probably has other titles to land. they tended to collect as many titles as possible like a game.

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