2020 Moderator Election Chatroom

user21820

02:35

11

A: What are the best practices for giving online tests?

On The Timer I tried a long timer (about 3-5 days) for my exams and final exam last semester. The reason for this is that my favorite assignments from college -- the ones where I learned the most -- were challenging assignments that had a long availability period and allowed incremental work over...

> However, an unbelievably large number of my students used Chegg, Mathway, Symbolab, and Wolfram|Alpha to cheat. I gave F's for academic integrity violations to almost 25% of my students. That's just the ones where I had evidence that I felt was strong enough to win an appeal. Many more clever students may have used the resources without being so obvious about it.

Don't forget about Course Hero and if you give days perhaps the Math Stack Exchange. (which would be really funny if you answered it) — James S. Cook Jun 22 at 2:17

5

A: What are the best practices for giving online tests?

Here is my experience: Throughout the term I gave several quizzes with long timer short availability questions all at once academic integrity statement few modifications The average score was around 80 %. For the final exam, I gave a quiz with majority (around 2/3) of the questions very similar...

> Throughout the term I gave several quizzes with
> long timer
> short availability
> questions all at once
> academic integrity statement
> few modifications
> The average score was around 80 %.

> For the final exam, I gave a quiz with majority (around 2/3) of the questions very similar to those given throughout the term (or even the same questions, but reworded). However, the conditions were different:
> short timer
> questions one at a time
> randomized question order
> prohibit backtracking
> random questions (a random question from each category with 1 to 4 similar questions)
> no academic integrity statement
> Besides this, I was tracking the progress of students to make sure that there are no students waiting for someone else to answer their question. This l…

> I should admit that cheating is a real plague here, starting from primary school. I am trying to fight it as much as I can. For instance, besides the quiz, there were problems to solve in the final exam, which I made as variable as I could (the exam was in Statistics, so I used random samples).

> The students do know how much I despise cheating and that they would get F if they are caught, so most of them will prefer to return a blank paper if there is a chance to get caught cheating. And still there were 4 F's in the final exam because of ch[e]ating (out of around 40 students).

@DanielR.Collins, last year the performance was about 60 % on average for midterm and 80 % on average for final exam (I use to give easier final exam sheets). — zhoraster Jul 2 at 15:13

20

A: What websites allow students to purchase solutions to problems?

Some of Chegg's competitors are Studyblue, Course Hero, Slader, and Cramster. However, Chegg is the market leader by a mile. It's a little difficult to sort out which of these businesses actually sell solutions, because they don't admit they do that. For example, the NY Times did a softball inter...

> It's a little difficult to sort out which of these businesses actually sell solutions, because they don't admit they do that. For example, the NY Times did a softball interview recently with Chegg's CEO, where they asked, "Many teachers believe that their students are using Chegg as a means by which to cheat. Is this a problem? And if so, what are you doing about it?" He answered with lies and evasions:

> > It’s always been a problem for colleges. Let’s face it: Students have always found a way, whether it’s in fraternities, or whether they go to Google. But Chegg is not built for that. We have built technology that removes copyrighted material before it even gets posted. If we’re notified by a professor or a school that there’s copyrighted material, it immediately gets flagged and then removed.

> (None of this is true. Chegg is built for that, and their entire business model is based on illegal use of copyrighted material, i.e., the questions themselves. The publishers tried to get Chegg to take down copyright-violating material, and ultimately gave up because it was like whac-a-mole.)

Students are motivated to cheat. That's a pre-existing problem. — Peter Saveliev Jun 18 at 16:06

Given the known low average quality of Chegg answers, and the high average quality of Math SE, it is not a fantasy to guess that the smarter cheaters will use Math SE instead of Chegg.

If Chris Cunningham could catch 25% of students cheating with evidence strong enough to win an appeal, what about all the rest where evidence is not strong enough? Can anyone say it isn't a problem just because nobody could prove it?

user21820

03:01

Just for comparison, Phys SE's close dialog box has under "needs improvement" the option:

> Homework-like questions and check-my-work questions are considered off-topic here, particularly when asking about specific computations instead of underlying physics concepts.

> Homework questions can be on-topic when they are useful to a broader audience. If you intend to modify your question, please read the links above carefully before editing. Note that answers with complete solutions may be deleted!

2

Note that I'm not saying Math SE should have a similar approach, even though it would in my opinion be one viable option (Phys SE has been doing fine with it). I'm just putting it out here for consideration that we can if we wish favour posts on underlying mathematical concepts instead of giving so much leeway to specific problems. To give an example, I searched Math SE for questions on understanding fractions and easily found this one:

3

Q: multiplication and addition fractions

Try to visualize process of multiplication fraction addition is obvious, need to split each part to the same size - "reduce to a common denominator" for example $$\frac23 +\frac24 = \frac{8}{12}+\frac{6}{12}$$ Multiplication rule numerator * numerator, denominator * denominator - how to ...

It's really basic mathematics, but it asks about the concept, and so I think it deserves to be much better favoured than questions that just say "Find XYZ integral." and nothing else!

MaoWao

08:06

To any candidate dropping by: When considering what is proper contextt, (how) do you take the level of the question into account?

2

Inverse Problem

12:43

How to nominate

sai-kartik

12:56

@InverseProblem go to the the official election page and scroll all the way down. you should see a link asking if you would like to nominate yourself..

Inverse Problem

13:14

Im sorry i am asking for how to vote for candidate

sai-kartik

13:27

@InverseProblem oh the voting hasn't begun yet

user21820

@InverseProblem Wait 4 to 5 days then go back to that same webpage.

sai-kartik

my question to all the nominees:
have a look at this answer: https://math.stackexchange.com/a/3766631/736802
What would be your first reaction on looking at it?

Xander Henderson

@MaoWao In terms of context, I don't think that the level of the question is terribly relevant. Every question should provide good context.

A question reading "Compute the simplicial homology of a torus with three holes" is a just as poor a question as "Factor this cubic polynomial."

However, (1) there are many fewer questions asked on Math SE which are at a more advanced level (as there are fewer students taking classes at those more advanced levels), and (2) higher level questions tend to be better written, as the askers have more experience.

@sai-kartik The problem there is that the question is not good. The asker has given no context at all. Do they know what it means for a series to be Cauchy? to converge? are they familiar with any of the usual tests for convergence? are they expected to prove this from first principles, or can they apply standard tests? etc.

It is hard to see how the answer is at all helpful, given that the nature of the question is far from clear.

sai-kartik

13:45

so im guessing the action you would take is to close the question...

user21820

@XanderHenderson I think MaoWao was asking how you evaluate the context provided, and not just whether there is context or not. For me, the asker of the first had better not be saying something like "I thought about Z^3 but can't proceed", whereas the asker of the second might validly say "I tried all divisors of coefficients but none gave a linear factor.".

sai-kartik

@XanderHenderson i would guess you would also ask the answerer to avoid answering such questions, right?

Xander Henderson

@user21820 In both of the cases you suggest, I don't think that either is terribly good context, I agree that the latter is better than the former.

@sai-kartik Yes.

@sai-kartik I would have downvoted the answer had the entire post not been deleted before I got to it.

user21820

@XanderHenderson Of course, just giving an example to show that the level of the effort should in my opinion be judged relative to the apparent level of the asker.

sai-kartik

@XanderHenderson hmm looks like our views on "context" and answering poorly phrased problems match!

Xander Henderson

13:52

@user21820 Even so, "I tried all of the divisors of the coefficients" seemingly shows greater effort than "I thought about Z^3"; a better analog might be "I thought about the rational root test, but got stuck"

Both of these represent poor context.

sai-kartik

I was actually asked once not to "dictate" what other people can answer or not:

@sai-kartik It's fine if you don't want to answer certain questions, but dictating what other can and cannot answer is silly. — Notsredt yesterday

Xander Henderson

That being said, the criticism I hear most often is that higher level questions should not require as much context (the level of the question should, itself, indicate context). In answering @MaoWao's question, that was what I was reacting to.

sai-kartik

are these the kind of people who are much more lenient when it comes to the standard of the question? how would you deal with such comments? @XanderHenderson

Xander Henderson

It seems that you saw the question the other way around: you seem to be suggesting that the context requirement for a lower level question should be lower. I don't disagree---I generally expect higher level questions to have more context.

user185131

@MaoWao I'm not sure that the level of a question changes what "proper context" would look like. The general guidelines for providing context in How to ask a good question. are applicable to questions of all levels. It might be the case that some of the methods for providing context are more applicable for questions of one level as compared to the other, but maybe that's not exactly what you're asking about...

user185131

13:55

I have to go now, I'll be able to check any responses and other questions only later...

user21820

14:17

@XanderHenderson I know it's subjective. I was just trying to imagine what a student who didn't know there was a cubic formula might say in just one sentence, and imagine a lazy graduate student who also just wrote one sentence. =P

The paucity was deliberate.

Matt Samuel

@MaoWao I think the required amount of context doesn't depend on the level of the question, but I also don't think what is usually called "context" here, at least "additional context" as in the close reason, is required. I think clarity of the question is sufficient.

@sai-kartik I think the answer is fine. The question is unclear based on the notation. Do they really mean $\cos 3^3$, or is it $\cos^3 3$? I mean, either way the sequence is Cauchy, but it should be clarified.

sai-kartik

@MattSamuel just to clarify: you're okay with the answers being posted like that? Would you prefer such answers to be comments instead?

Matt Samuel

@sai-kartik Some are OK with hint only answers. As far as hints go, that answer is not a problem. The comments should not be use for answers, and ideally not for hints either; they are for requesting clarification from the OP.

sai-kartik

@MattSamuel nice to hear your views on this! thanks for answering :)

you might want to answer my second question too

35 mins ago, by sai-kartik

are these the kind of people who are much more lenient when it comes to the standard of the question? how would you deal with such comments? @XanderHenderson

though it's directed to Xander, i'd like to see your opinion on it too...

Matt Samuel

@sai-kartik You mean comments as to dictating what people can and cannot answer?

sai-kartik

14:31

@MattSamuel yes

Matt Samuel

@sai-kartik Dictating what people can and cannot answer is what closing questions is about. I agree with the spirit of the comment (not necessarily as directed towards you) because I think many people close questions that are fine for the wrong reasons, but if a question is unclear, or opinion based, or multiple questions in one, then voting to close it is appropriate, and that is dictating whether or not someone can answer it.

sai-kartik

okay.. I catch your point, @MattSamuel.

so you think the question was properly asked?

MaoWao

Thank you @XanderHenderson @MattSamuel and @Brahadeesh for your answers.

As my question seems to have not been entirely clear, some context: I personally browse almost exclusively my watched tags here, all of which could probably be considered advanced, and take pretty much the MO approach to judge a questions: something you would ask your colleague down the hall, if the appropriate colleague existed in your department. I am trying to gauge in how far this approach is compatible with the views of the candidates.

sai-kartik

please excuse me if my tone sounds attacking. I mean nothing of the sort.

Xander Henderson

@MattSamuel There is a close reason which is titled "Needs clarity or additional details."

The "Lacks context" reason is meant to cover the "Needs additional details" reason, but give additional resources to the asker.

e.g. a link to the "How to ask a better question" page.

Matt Samuel

14:40

@sai-kartik No problem, your tone doesn't seem attacking at all. I think that is the sort of question that people might ask for additional context for when it is not needed.

Xander Henderson

So yes, every "needs context" question could be closed for "needing details or clarity", but the "needs context" close dialog gives the asker more information about how they can improve their question.

2

@sai-kartik Sorry... I am only half here. Frankly, there is not much which can be done about answerers who answer poor questions. I often downvote and leave a comment explaining the downvote. I think that commenting is necessary, as I think that one needs to send a signal to the answerers that their behaviour isn't great.

3

I know that there are a couple of accounts which have amassed a large amount of XP very quickly (say 50k XP in 6 months or a year), which have faced subsequent suspensions, but I don't know the details of those suspensions, so they may have been for other reasons.

quid

@MattSamuel you keep saying that but did not answer what "clear" means.

3

user21820

Let's discuss an actual example (just the first result of searching for "help" on Math SE):

2

Q: Help with improper integral

I need help solving this integral: $$\int_0 ^\infty \frac{\sin(x)}{x} dx$$ I have a help that says that try to calculate the integral of $$\frac{e^{iz}}{z}$$ for a "proper path"... but I don't know how to use that, help.

complex-analysis complex-integration

The integral is clear. It is also clear what hint has been given.

But there is no effort whatsoever from the asker.

So?

Matt Samuel

@quid I don't have a detailed definition of clear that can be used as an algorithm to determine whether or not to close a question, it's more of "I'll know it when I see it."

quid

@MattSamuel thus it's void as a guideline.

It is completely subjective.

amWhy

14:53

@MattSamuel So you wouldn't object to users saying they closed a question as not clear, or lacking context, because they know clear questions with context when they see it? You blame others for being subjective, but you're admitting to the same "flaw".

Xander Henderson

@sai-kartik I believe that I have answered your question:

@Notsredt I disagree with you. The "value-add" offered by Math SE is a searchable database of knowledge, not a tutoring service (for that, there's Quora, reddit, etc). Math SE thrives on high quality question/answer pairs. If a question is unclear or lacking context, then it answering that question ultimately degrades the quality of the site. A better course of action is to help the asker, via comments, to clarify and crystalize their question, and then answer it. sai-kartik very polity suggested that Quanto not answer this question (there was no dictating). This is a reasonable request. — Xander Henderson 25 secs ago

quid

Indeed that what many seem to do in practice. They see a question, consider it as clear to them, and start complaining.

Matt Samuel

@quid Of course it is subjective. Determining whether a question is clear is not an algorithmic process, it's asking yourself whether you understand it and whether you think someone could answer it.

amWhy

@Matt If you are elected a moderator, and act to suspend a user, are you going to fall back on "I know a user who should be suspended when I see them"?

user21820

@amWhy Ooh that would be scary...

quid

14:56

@MattSamuel I disagree with that. Something is "clear" does not mean that somebody can understand it, but instead it means that essentially everybody (with the relevant qualification) will understand it, and will understand it in the same way.

3

amWhy

@Matt If you cannot even begin to articulate guidelines or rubriks, I can't trust this site to such a potential moderator, who "flies by the seat of his pants".

quid

There is a difference between something being "clear" and something being kinda-sorta comprehensible.

And I find it unfortunate that this line is blurred.

2

Matt Samuel

@quid Many problem statement questions are unequivocally clear, yet people close them simply because they are problem statements.

2

quid

@MattSamuel don't change the subject.

(But we can come to that too. )

Matt Samuel

@quid Your definition of clear is reasonable, but it's still an "I know it when I see it" process.

quid

15:04

@MattSamuel ultimately that is true for everything. There is an important consequence though, namely that as soon as somebody make a reasonable claim that it is not clear it is not clear.

In practice some want the opposite, namely as soon as somebody thinks they understand it it is clear.

3

amWhy

@MattSamuel Instead of complaining about this or that, and attacking users who do this or that, I'd like you to start framing your answers to questions in terms of what you do, and why, and what you would do, and why, as a mod. You've framed your candidacy in terms of what you see as problems with other users, rather than in terms of how you would solve problems. And when you say anything along the lines of "I'll do what I need to to when I see it, and what I do will be determined by that."

quid

That makes a huge difference.

amWhy

... you aren't offering alternatives, your are asking users to trust that what you see when you see it is a correct perception, when you offer no justification as to why your perception of what is clear, and why it's clear, or who is wrong and why they're wrong. That's asking users to vote on blind faith alone.

@MattSamuel Bottom line, you're being lazy and not entirely transparent when you fail to answer questions, but instead, you fall back on "I know it when I see it".

Matt Samuel

@amWhy Thank you for your criticism. I will take it into account.

quid

15:22

@MattSamuel to come back to this, I wrote about this frequently. I disagree. Many PSQs are much less clear as questions than some want to make us believe. "Determine the inverse of A = {some 2 by 2 matrix}." I would agree that it is reasonably clear what the solution is, but it is not clear what the implied questions actually is. We can default to assuming it is: "What is the solution to this problem and how to obtain it?" but that already is an interpretation, which at times is incorrect.

2

The problem might already be to know what the inverse is or what a matrix is. That's not entirely unrealistic. To a large part this goes away when we insist on some context, and the question-post, e.g., contains the information. "I know that I need to find a matrix B such that BA = AB = I. However, I do not know how to do that. "

user185131

@sai-kartik The question whose answer you have linked to is now deleted, so I cannot view it. But I recall that the question was just a problem statement and the answer a hint. Since you specifically ask for thoughts on the answer, I'll mention that I am not against hint answers. But good hints are difficult to compose, which means that many hint answers would be better served as comments, or could be deleted. I don't recall whether the answer you linked was good a hint or not...

Matt Samuel

@quid I have a day job that I am currently neglecting for this conversation, so if you don't mind I'd appreciate if we could continue this at a later time.

quid

@MattSamuel sure. Actually me too. :-)

sai-kartik

@XanderHenderson yes, you have. Thanks for your time :)

user21820

@Brahadeesh In my opinion, although the mathematical expression in that so-called 'hint' is relevant to the required proof that the sequence whose n-th term is Sum { cos(k^k)/k! : k∈[0..n] } is Cauchy, the post itself is either wrong or extremely misleading.

But that doesn't excuse the bad question in the first place, which was just the 1 line "Prove that the sequence {an} = 1 + cos(1)/1! + cos(2^2)/2! + cos(3^3)/3! + ... + cos(n^n)/n! is Cauchy." and nothing else.

sai-kartik

15:45

I believe that is the right action to take. Even if a PSQ is totally clear, It still is a PSQ. When we ask the user to provide some attempt, we're actively trying to help them learn. Unfortunately, most people don't get that we're trying to help them. Closing the question should ideally encourage the asker to provide more **details** or **insight** into the question. If they are really interested to know the answer, they will do so, but most of them end up discouraged and some **might** take to meta to complain about it.

2

@user21820 yes, i totally agree.

user21820

@sai-kartik Even if "most of them end up discouraged", we'd have to consider whether in the first place most PSQ posters just want answers and don't want to learn, much less follow instructions on how to ask a good question. As you said, if they are really interested to know the answer, they will put in effort to provide more of their own thoughts.

3

That's why when the no-context banner message was changed recently, I was much in favour of clearly stating in the banner itself what should be done to improve the question:

4

A: Two announcements: new "FAQ" and new "closure rules"

I propose a more informative close-reason (as an alternative to Aloizio's proposed replacement of the "missing context or other details" reason): This question is missing context or research effort: Please provide additional details, explaining why the question is valuable or important, or wh...

However, in the end, it wasn't taken up.

user185131

16:22

@user21820 Ah, thanks, I did not get a good look at the answer before the post was deleted. I trust your judgement here that the post was wrong/misleading.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ 2020 Moderator Election Chatroom