@M__ Code of conduct? Looks like a FAQ to me.

@NautArch my conclusion is RPG is at best a really uncomfortable experience. If you don't want to make the core material e.g. tour or core material more transparent OR if you are using meta alone to explain how the site works, than simply have a unified RPG meta post and post it as a comment when a new user hits the site - its not just mods who see this. The review queue is open to everyone beyond a given rep and there's repeat gold awards for attending to the queue

@M__ New users are generally welcomed and given links for more information - but direct links to direct issues don't happen until an issue arrives. Which is what was done with you - but you seem completely unwilling to even be open to why we do things the way we do even when explained.

It doesn't unring the uncomfortable experience bell, but refusing to understand or engage with our guidance doesn't really help your case, either.

@NautArch I don't want to be impolite but there are grounds for escalation within SE

@M__ With me? If I've offended, then I'll back off. But threats really really aren't the way to resolve issues.

For elves/goblins/half-elves etc ... its not worth the time, but there are technical basis for escalation outside RPG

@NautArch for RPG not for an individual. All I'm saying is RPG is just another SE, there's room for autonomy - but its very different to other sites

Which other stacks? I mean, each stack has their own way of doing things - which I think is the intent.

@NautArch to repeat this I am not focusing on any one individual

However, you still haven't shown where you are getting this idea that this stack is out of sync.

@NautArch I mod a stack, stackoverflow, stats stack, datascience stack

@M__ Okay, but you still aren't showing me anything. It is feeling like you are just trying to prove yourself as right and not try to understand why we have things set up the way we do. It doesn't mean we're right either, but just saying "you're wrong" isn't entirely helpful.

Honestly, it's not worth the time. The key things are the anonymised downvote, the volume of anonymised downvoting is way in excess of other stacks and this can lead to misunderstandings. SE do ask to avoid doing this and the 'code of conduct' does request constructive criticism

@NautArch I could do full-scale analytics of the site - its not worth the time - you did seem to accept the site was different and meta posts describe that

All I'm saying that very small things - easily done - can offset the differences between this site and others

You can change your tour, you can unify the numerous conclusions of the meta-posts, there's a lot can be done.

I'm sorry that things didn't work out for you on this stack. I did try and help out with your Rolemaster question, but I agree that communication is needed more for major actions - just not for downvotes.

@NautArch honestly that is all that is being requested

@NautArch just to an RPG alone (without any dyslexia stuff - which I'm really sensitive about) ... for traditional style (not online) ...

@NautArch normally DnD is/was played alongside Rolemaster ... that was what I was use to.

I've only played AD&D and 5e for D&D, but Rolemaster was never part of y knowledge

obviously here the two are really different - any cross-posting is downvoting

Right I get that with 5e this is a major upgrade

that unified all the best bits from earlier versions and became really big

I was RPG-ing before this trend hit and didn't realise what had happened

to you guys its obvious DnD5e took control, I was completely oblivious to that

maybe all new RPG players know this - and know the barriers - I had no idea. I know historic DnD and it took me by surprise

it was never that way historically - not that I had experienced - but 5e wasn't around then

Honestly, I've never heard of Rolemaster. I think you are assuming a greater knowledge of RPGs than others have or that there were connections that didn't really exist. But I just don't know RM.

But AD&D was AD&D, there were no other systems that were part of it when I played.

And my hunch is most folks don't combine systems.

No problem - I guess most don't - it stopped around 2000 - 2003 being update and started again recently

The world has changed - I get it - and Dnd5e is huge. I now get it.

I would honestly say that this site is very different on its technical approach to SE. However, the RPG world has changed beyond anything I knew

I'm also aware the demographic has changed alot - but thats a separate issue altogether

its much more mainstream now - when I started it was geeks and heavy metal buffs

Okay fine anyway thanks for taking time to explain this

that is very much appreciated ... I mod a site and I wouldn't go to such lengths to explain things as you have done

that is very strongly appreciated

so thanks

there is tension between systems here, I can see that - one other member commented on it, but that is likely a reflection of current RPG in general

its no more than technical tension between different programming languages

or statistical approaches - that has always been part of SE

and tech in general - thats not an issue - thats expected. Anyway thanks for been so helpful @NautArch

@Nautarch I'll pop a note on the meta post simply to say thanks - I think stuff could be done that is clearer but the time given to members that have bad experiences is commendable

RPG SE it is quite exceptional actually in that regard

We are also MUCH more than D&D and 5e. It's not so much tension between systems, it's that systems have different rules and we can't really bring other systems into answers unless we are answering subjectively and can explain how they were incorporated.

And @NautArch: thank you (as usual) for all your good work here.

For other readers coming along: the SE Code of Conduct was invoked and has been changed a few times in recent years--if you haven't taken a look since you first joined, it may be worth two minutes to skim. I will point out that nothing in that document or the voting-meta that it links to mentions an expectation of commenting on downvotes, as was asserted above.

Requiring comments on downvotes has been proposed and shot down many times on meta.SE. You are encouraged to consider doing so via a tooltip. I don't know about you-all, but every time I downvote I do ask myself the question "is there a simple, concise, actionable suggestion I can make that I have the time and inclination to do so nicely right now?" Sometimes I do.

@nitsua60 Just to be clear, I will not be doing this - I'm happy with the time @NautArch dedicated - commendable - but wouldn't have done this in any case for elves, goblins and dwarves. BTW one of your mods (I believe) is SE staff. If I was in this situation, i.e. it was my site, I would review procedure in private. I personally would requested internal change - but collective decisions don't always go that way. However, I wouldn't have dedicated the time @NautArch has given to this.

@nitsua60 I am aware of the new code of conduct and it was revised on 31 May 2023. It is worth all SE account holders reading this regardless of site. It seems pretty universal across sites - albeit I've not one a one to one comparison.

@M__ Former rpg mod V2Blast is on the CM team at SE.

@M__ I think you would find, if you spent much time around here, that @NautArch is (no offense, Naut) not exceptional in this case. RPG has a surfeit of users who are knowledgeable, patient, and kind.

@ThomasMarkov thanks former-mod that explains it. I do know V2Blast outside RPG, but I rarely name individuals.

@nitsua60 that maybe true, and the general point is well taken.

@nitsua60 100% agree, just want to see more kindness and less tribalism :)

@NautArch :thumbsup:

Let’s review: a moderator from another stack came into our chat and told us that downvoting without explanation was a violation of of the Code of Conduct.

@ThomasMarkov Yup. That happened. It's okay.

<goes to put his torches away>

<keeps pitchfork, still have yardwork>

My wife won’t let me line our new driveway with torches.

Not even Tiki brand?

@M__ I am familiar with rolemaster, but it's been a long time since I played. When I first joined RPGSE (my first SE) I asked about the lack of feedback on down votes, and I got the usual SE / SO answer. I have over time given less feedback but sometimes I do spell out what is wrong with the question or answer. I got fed up with the energy required to provide feedback on down votes at Christianity.SE and that distaste has carried over to here.

@ThomasMarkov Which isn't true, as far as I can tell. (the CoC violation)

@KorvinStarmast Okay thanks its a good insight. I occasionally post on Christianity SE but try to keep religion out of stuff.

@ThomasMarkov Cool, good practice. However, I agree with @KorvinStarmast I can't see it violating the current CoC. Violation is a strong word (meaning intentional opposition), and the CoC would by worded differently if that was intended.

@M__ I still have a few of the books the I.C.E. did for Middle Earth (percentile based system) and those are the same folks who created Rolemaster IIRC. They are in a box at home.

@KorvinStarmast They're collectors items!! :-) .. particularly with all the Tolkien Enterprises vs pre-ICE legal licensing fallout.

@M__ Please escalate the issue to a CM. I suggested as much when I flagged your meta post. There are fruitful arguments and correct places to have them.

@Akixkisu Or please don’t waste their time complaining that posts with notable quality concerns were downvoted by users acting well within the intended scope of the downvote function.