TRPG General Chat

12:12 AM

"Lady Blackbird: A perfect starter game," review by Sophie Lagacé.

@V2Blast This is correct. We know that the generic dnd tag doesn’t belong, and the other four tags are probably fine, so I’m making room for the appropriate system tag.

BESW

A Short Rest by Shing Yin Khor. A digital collection of maps and cards, to be used as story or world-building for RPG games.

Glazius

12:33 AM

@Axoren Yes, it's really coasting on the franchise. The introductory example of play is boxed text and The Wisdom (Perception) Check That Does Nothing, because you don't need an introductory example of play, you already know what D&D is.

Adeptus

1:42 AM

Skin Horse is back from hiatus! *\o/*

BESW

1:52 AM

Wooo!

trogdor

boo! :P

Adeptus

trogdor

I will not be silenced!

XD

SmokeDetector

2:51 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer, messaging number in answer, pattern-matching email in answer (441): Does the spell Web work with the Graviturgy Wizard's Gravity Well feature? by unknown on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

KorvinStarmast

3:07 AM

@doppelgreener they tried to fix that a bit with the basic/BX version of the game (Moldvay, Mentzer, et al) and succeeded somewhat. But because a certain level of 'realism' or 'verisimilitude' was seen as desirable, the over complexity seems to have been fated to return. That's never gone away. Even the efforts 5e went through to be newbie friendly were only partly successful.

Hot RPG Questions

5:24 AM

3

Q: How do Resurrection spells work with someone who has died of old age?

In a campaign I run, one of the characters faces the real danger of succumbing to a curse that will add enough age to them that they would easily exceed their race's life expectancy. The curse description states that the character dies if this "new" age exceeds the maximum life expectancy. My q...

A. B.

6:05 AM

.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

7:50 AM

@A.B. /me waves its pedipalps in greeting.

A. B.

8:03 AM

/me waves in spider

hello!

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

At least I assumed the dot was meant to attract attention.

As usual, I'm not a telepath and don't have solid information about what other creatures may want to achieve before/without communicating.

(And it's not uncommon to have difficulty understanding even after communication attempts.)

A. B.

Haha, in this case you read it exactly correctly. I wanted to attract attention but didn't know what to say.

linksassin

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I like the use of 'creatures' here. No assumption that all denizens of this room are human.

AncientSwordRage

10:33 AM

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica \\o/

@linksassin bleep bloop

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@A.B. Generally bringing up a topic is the more likely way of getting some responses that in turn cause more responses.

BESW

11:09 AM

Elf Genders by Lucian Kahn. A worldbuilding tool for creating your own new systems of fantasy genders. Most humans are women, men, or nonbinary, but maybe elves are… something else? Elf Genders helps you decide what!

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that sounds interesting

Hows tricks?

BESW

@AncientSwordRage Yeah, I'm curious, but not $5 for a tool designed for settings I never plan to play in again curious.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that sums it up for me as well

I was going to ask if you bought/tried everything you posted, but then I realised the answer was most likely not

BESW

11:25 AM

Hah, yeah, no.

I try not to pass on obviously bad stuff, but I think I'd do the chat a disservice if I only shared things which are so tailored to my tastes that I spent enough time with them to give an informed endorsement.

For one thing, I'd stop sharing D&D-related things entirely and then where would the chat be.

Okay, I've tried to find this in Google but the search terms are next to useless: If you know that you've hosted meetings on Zoom but the Meetings tab says "The user does not have any previous meetings," what gives?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW back at 4e

@BESW no clue, I have zoomed a total of once

I genuinely thought about making a tracker for "Days since Chat gushed over DnD 4E" a few days ago...

BESW

Heh. It's definitely the largest intersection of "games most of the chat gives a hoot about" and "games I give a hoot about."

AncientSwordRage

not fate?

BESW

Sam Leigh asks on twitter, "What is your favorite 2-player ttrpg?"

Fate's a comparatively small circle for the chat as a whole.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW true I suppose

BESW

11:37 AM

It's also a game that's harder to talk about in the abstract if you're not actively in a campaign.

That, as much as the pop culture inertia and the confusing texts, is a major contributor to D&D's presence in conversations over other games: it's a game that can be talked about with people who don't share your immediate context for it.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

@AncientSwordRage Chatting about it is often a very frustrating experience IME, with a major reasons being (a) different people having different unspoken assumption (the core books don't point out the way such assumptions affect hermeneutics) and (b) regularly running into hyperfocused and almost tangential specific examples when trying to dissect a more general case first.

I'm not sure how much that affects others, but it might be a factor that causes some reluctance to just go and chat about the system in the same way as, say, the discussion of how to build a Caffeinated Warlock or something.

AncientSwordRage

11:58 AM

Somehow I thought that might be the case

Thomas Markov

1:08 PM

So ive got an idea for a question that might be out of scope

but maybe ill just throw it out there and see what happens

MikeQ

Is it "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?"

Mithical

African or European?

doppelgreener

@Glazius this is some good wordings. i feel like D&D more or less accidentally fell into this, but then kept doing it because it noticed the effect it had.

but i resent D&D doing it, since the effect is to monopolise almost every online space around itself and through that and other means generally smother the genre so that its competition virtually doesn't get to exist.

3

Akixkisu

@ThomasMarkov you could always workshop it here.

Medix2

1:26 PM

@Akixkisu Trying to explain why my new question isn't a dupe...

But I guess if it is, then your answer needs to be improved for not answering the question ???

Akixkisu

@Medix2 I think they are meaningfully distinct, but you could maybe close the first question as a duplicate of your question.

Medix2

Well, the first is still confused about nets XD

Akixkisu

Yes.

Medix2

Which my question doesn't really capture

Like theirs is "I need a net?" and mine is "I can use anything?"

Akixkisu

Correct.

But the answer is likely, yes you can use anything.

And if that is the answer, then you don't need nets.

Medix2

1:31 PM

I guess there's is "Do I need a net, and if not, what now?" which, in a way, covers my question... idk, I definitely can see answers to either only addressing the question it's under

Though I suppose you could use a net anyway XD

Akixkisu

Yup.

Someone_Evil

Can I get some second opinions on something? My attention has been pointed to this old question about online D&D 4e sheets. My first instinct was just to lock it with the historical, but a lot of the answers are now invalidated due to the services doing offline. And I'm not quite sure about purging a bunch of answers and then closing or locking the question. Thoughts?

BESW

@doppelgreener I'm not thrilled that Apocalypse World saw this happen and went "Yeah, we should emulate that." Big the system is fine so long as I'm on top energy, and AW modelling that attitude has had a lasting effect on the small-press scene since.

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil I would tag it with the tool recommendation tag, you might want to remove any unnecessary comments - not sure why you want to lock it, when you can just close it, tbh.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW @doppelgreener I can't access the video from work, is there a summary either of you can give?

nitsua60

1:36 PM

@Someone_Evil My instinct would be historical lock and adding a top-note (by editing the post notice or just in the post above an <hr>) explaining it in so many words: "Many of these answers are invalidated by tools going offline."

RevanantBacon

@Someone_Evil I would say yes. It's almost definitely off-topic now as a 'shopping question', and it invites what I would consider 'link-only answers' (and most of the answers are such)

nitsua60

(And akixkisu makes a good point about the tool-rec tag.)

Someone_Evil

Wait, we can edit those post notices?

BESW

@AncientSwordRage It's Vincent Baker speaking at a convention about how Apocalypse World was specifically designed to "dominate the conversation."

Akixkisu

I guess the lock makes sense to prevent downvotes.

BESW

1:38 PM

> We talked [in The Forge forums] about how to create a game that is playable, but we never talked about how do you create a game that will catch on.

Akixkisu

@BESW honestly, parts of that sound like posthoc rationalisation. But the c-word makes it feel bad.

nitsua60

@Someone_Evil I don't know--some of them, IIRC?

Someone_Evil

Do you know where I'd find the option to, it isn't under mod actions on the q at least?

nitsua60

@Akixkisu For me, the lock is the signpost to say "we used to do these (tool-rec) questions, so the post was fine, but we don't any more, so don't look to this as an example of what to do."

@Someone_Evil [summons @doppelgreener for help] I could barely find my way around those damn mod-tools when I could see them--I think you'll get better pointers from my better mod-half =)

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil I think leaving the obsoleted answers up highlights well the problem with tool rec questions.

Akixkisu

1:44 PM

@nitsua60 I don't think they do much as a signpost, but they do prevent people from receiving downvotes for something that used to be helpful and were the only course of action that omits that would be to delete an answer altogether.

And we can point at them for discussion.

Thomas Markov

"Why dont we do tool recs?" For one, link rot, see here.

RevanantBacon

At the very least, a note should be made somewhere on the Q that most of the links are defunct and no longer work.

BESW

Link rot is what happens if the protagonist of the Zelda games gets zombified.

2

RevanantBacon

Can you put moderation banners on answers, or just questions?

Medix2

The citation needed one is on answers atvl

Akixkisu

1:49 PM

So while there is some merit to locking the q, I don't see it it fulfil all the criteria "Questions can be historically locked when:

The post does not meet the current guidelines for a good, on-topic question, and
The post is stellar, in spite of its off-topic nature, and
There are a large number of views, upvotes and inbound links on the post, and
The post is contentious; e.g., it has been closed and reopened at least once, or deleted and undeleted at least once."

Medix2

At least, I assume we can't put citation needed on questions but maybe we can... I know skeptics has a close for it

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 See my latest edit to my answer on your Q

Someone_Evil

We can put those same post notices on answers and questions. We can even put the game rec notice on answer which I find slightly amusing

@Akixkisu I think that's what we call guidance, and not detailed criteria which must be followed :)

Medix2

@Someone_Evil Time to write an answer that's somehow an answer and where that notice is appropriate XD

Akixkisu

@Someone_Evil sure, but the crux is: is that q historically significant (and why are so many other very similar q's not historically significant)?

RevanantBacon

1:56 PM

@Someone_Evil My opinion is the each answer with a dead link should be bannered.

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil And even if it is somehow detailed criteria that must be followed, who's gonna tell you otherwise? We can decide how best to make use of the tools afforded us.

GcL

@RevanantBacon This is the all thing turn to dust outlook? On a long enough timeline, the survival of all links goes to zero.

RevanantBacon

@GcL I meant in that question specifically

GcL

Could write a re-linking script that checks the internet archive to see if the original target was archived in some form.

Thomas Markov

@GcL Yeah its gonna be awkward when DDB goes down.

Medix2

1:58 PM

@GcL Even then, it would have to be archived in a usable form

GcL

@RevanantBacon Oh... I was kinda hopeful that we were starting a digital crusade with brooms and librarians.

RevanantBacon

@GcL Well, I'm not specifically against the idea, but we gotta start somewhere :p

GcL

From what I know about sweeping, you want to start at the top. I'll have one ticket to the top of the internet please.

Trish

@RevanantBacon there's waybackmachine. And a question should just stand on its own even without the link.

if it doesn't tell what is behind the link, shutter the question as needs details

Thomas Markov

@Trish Cue the other problem with tool recs.

AncientSwordRage

2:03 PM

@BESW ughh

Trish

@ThomasMarkov lock em, close em, shutter them as Opinion based.

Someone_Evil

We do have a specific close reason for shopping and recommendation requests, so it's typically clearer to just use that

Medix2

Imagine multiple-reason closings

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov do not talk of such days

RevanantBacon

@Trish I agree on this except for the opinion-based. Almost every answer on that question I would consider a "link-only" answer, and low-quality.

Medix2

2:08 PM

There's the wonderful line of good subjective

Trish

@RevanantBacon otherwise: there's a stackwide ban on "recommendation" questions. (safe for that one...

Thomas Markov

Btw, my bounty on swarms expires in 1 day.

Medix2

To me, recommending a tool would mean you've actually used the tool and can speak to its pros and cons from a expert standpoint

RevanantBacon

@Trish We mostly do restrict recommendation questions though.

Someone_Evil

@Medix2 Like having multiple reasons shown? That would probably just confuse the message and it's better to use comments to explain the actual issues (the close reasons are broad enough already)

Medix2

2:09 PM

Similarly, when people asking about balancing things or the ramifications of a houserule, while yeah, it's opinion, it's also from an informed viewpoint about the machines of a system

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil had a question about that, one sec

Trish

64

Q: Why was my "shopping list" question closed?

My question was closed for being a "shopping list question", even though it was very much related to the topic of the site. Why?

support questions closed-questions faq-proposed

RevanantBacon

They have, as a whole, mostly been declared off-topic. I suspect that situations like this question are part of the reason on that

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I started writing an answer and gave up XD

AncientSwordRage

Children of RPG!

Of StackExchange!

I see in your links the same rot that would take the heart of me.

A day may come when D&D Beyond fails, when we forsake our questions and break all bonds of linking, but it is not this day.

An hour of edition changes and broken quesions when the Age of 5E comes crashing down, but it is not this day!

This day we answer!

By all that you hold dear on this good site, I bid you stand, Chatizens of RPG!

BESW

2:10 PM

If the Stack was gonna jump for multiple close reasons, they would've shown all close reasons on the voted-to-close notice, not just the majority reason.

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 You realize that 90% of the time I post a bounty Im hoping to solicit an answer from you specifically?

Medix2

@BESW Oh yeah, definitely. My comment was mostly a joke, though I don't think that came across as well as I hoped

I then had to imagine a "this question has been closed because CHARACTER LIMIT REACHED"

@ThomasMarkov I'll think on it some more after work... whenever that happens to end up being :(

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil This question seems to have the wrong close reason.

Medix2

What I've learned these past three weeks are that 10, 11, and 12 hour shifts are LONG

Thomas Markov

I really feel like we can do better than "off topic".

RevanantBacon

2:14 PM

@AncientSwordRage Bah, superstitious hogwash! 5e will never come down, it's the perfect system!

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I don't think those can be changed without reopening, which probably shouldn't happen given that it has reopen votes. For the record, I voted to close as uh... what was it... oh. Duh. I left a custom comment

GcL

We could have a new closed reason. I suggest "Old and busted". We could go with the more polite, "Legacy", but that word is for the fantasy Q&A of stack exchange.

BESW

@Medix2 Oof

AncientSwordRage

@RevanantBacon It's made of D&D Sir, I assure you it can sink.

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon chuckles in targeting rules

RevanantBacon

2:15 PM

@ThomasMarkov FWIW I'm pretty sure I selected Opinion Based as my close reason

kviiri

@RevanantBacon Joking aside, I'm actually curious to see what DnD 6e will be like when the time comes

Even if I probably'll never play it

Someone_Evil

@RevanantBacon You did

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I still have a question drafted about whether fireball targets the things in the AOE. It quotes features and rules about targets and goes "help, I'm lost"

Trish

@AncientSwordRage And now Theoden AncientSwordRage, rally the masses agaisnt the atrocity of Wizards and have us promote non-D&Desques!

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 And I can just copypasta my answer about gravity well.

Medix2

2:18 PM

@kviiri Watch then pull a Kingdom Hearts and we get something like " D& The 7#+ "

GcL

@AncientSwordRage Let the sea wash the edge cases and the ambiguities away. Let the old D&D drown. Let rule books fill with sea water. Let the fish eat the scales off the rules. What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger. What is dead may never die!

Someone_Evil

I think there's an argument for getting a designer reasons as a specific off-topic reason. There's some mixed messaging in closing them as opinion based (partly that chucking calls for citations doesn't salvage the question). Though how to shuffle our existing reasons about or whether we try to get a fourth slot I'll leave to the meta discussion

kviiri

@Medix2 Kingdom Hearts is the franchise to surpass Metal Gear

AncientSwordRage

@Trish if only :p

kviiri

in terms of tangly canon, that is

AncientSwordRage

2:20 PM

@GcL The internet tells me this is a GoT reference

BESW

@kviiri [scoffs in Doctor Who]

AncientSwordRage

@kviiri Mine is the franchise that will pierce the heavens?

nitsua60

@AncientSwordRage The internet's not wrong. This time.

Trish

@AncientSwordRage just auto-lock all 5E and D&D questions for a weekend with a custom "Non-D&D Awareness day" ;)

Medix2

@Trish And so the seed that would become April Fools 2022 was planted

kviiri

2:22 PM

Speaking of that I would want to acknowledge @Glazius for so often being the one to answer our non-DnD questions

BESW

@Trish [amused] I used to post screenshots of my "newest questions" screen set to 50 posts per page, with never more than a half-dozen questions on the page because of my ignored-tag settings.

Trish

@GcL The nightmare corpse-city of Seattle…was built in measureless eons behind history by the vast, loathsome shapes that seeped down from the evil wizards. There lay great Dragons and their hordes, hidden in green slimy Dungeons.

kviiri

@BESW At least Doctor Who does (I think?) anti-canon. Though one could argue Kojima's habit of retconning half of the canon in every installment is anti-canon too...

BESW

@kviiri Doctor Who's so anti-canon that sometimes it comes back around to being obsessed with canon again.

Trish

@BESW Dr Who is obsessed with itself.

BESW

2:27 PM

It certainly was under Moffat.

kviiri

@BESW . . . . .for some reason, this too sounds like Metal Gear.

:D

Glazius

@kviiri Speaking as someone who does run with dnd and finder dimmed out, thanks for noticing but it's not just me. There's some Warhammer fantasy and Mutants and Masterminds stuff on the front page that got some love recently, and that wasn't me.

kviiri

@Glazius Not just you, certainly, but you've been a particularly active contributor

anyway, i got to mosey off for a while. Toodles

Take care everyone

doppelgreener

@BESW I don't share that read on the situation. What I see is Baker looking at how presence in conversation contributes to a game's success and deciding to deliberately use those factors for marketing, because on the inverse, zero conversation about the game could mean commercial failure. It was effective! It's not great that it works.

@Someone_Evil @nitsua60 Post notices cannot be edited. You can create a new post notice and retire an old one, I think, which you'd probably do on the mod page that looks at the post notices. It's probably on the list-of-links moderator tools tab which we often overlook.

Vincent Baker talks about how he designed Apocalypse World to make sure it would have conversation about it happening.
He talks about how he deliberately made sure 5-10% of his game's target audience would hate the game so much they couldn't stop talking about it, and calls out his "Don't pre-plan a story because it will make for a boring game" GM line as being one that he deliberately put there to alienate at least some of his audience.
He says he also sets it up so that about a third of his audience will understand his game perfectly on the first read, another third will take some re-read…

Someone_Evil

@doppelgreener Not for post notices, only for close reasons. The post notice for this we can edit though

doppelgreener

2:42 PM

We can only edit the off-topic close reasons, but we have a limited number of slots which I think are full

oh, wait, maybe that's what you were saying just now

Ok, my memory is probably not going to help beyond this point, lol

nitsua60

@doppelgreener Heck, look at how much conversation WotC's 2%/38%/60% breakdown into those 3 buckets creates =/

(Not that TSR did any better, Mentzer excepted.)

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I stopped following DW closely just as/before Capaldi

doppelgreener

@nitsua60 I think that's a sensible estimate of the size of those buckets.

AncientSwordRage

I didn't really know anything BUT Moffat I think

@Glazius I've played those, I'd love to see them, I just don't want to remove ALL d&d from my list of questions

anything worth sharing here?

@doppelgreener seems very hard to do, but easy to claim in hindsight?

@nitsua60 buckets?

nitsua60

@AncientSwordRage perfect understanding on first read/understand with some re-reading/need to ask for help with understanding. (From the Baker blockquote of greener's.)

doppelgreener

2:50 PM

@AncientSwordRage Moffat was in charge from season 5 to season 10, so he started when Matt Smith's run started and ended when Peter Capaldi's run ended.

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 ah sorry I misread your percentages as WotC's buckets

doppelgreener

If you've seen David Tennant or Christopher Eccleston, you've see non-Moffat Who.

AncientSwordRage

where does 2%/38%/60% breakdown into those 3 buckets creates =/
(Not that TSR did any better, Mentzer excepted.)

Glazius

@BESW If we're being fair about the timeline here, Baker was inspired by the reception of Freemarket. D&D Next was still in playtest at the time.

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I have indeed, I can't recall a difference in the runs, but I probably wasn't thinking too hard at the time

doppelgreener

2:52 PM

@AncientSwordRage they're ... structural problems

nitsua60

I was implying that if AW's presentation creates 33%/33%/33% divisions, then D&D's creates 2%/38%/60%.

doppelgreener

You'll generally notice something is wrong with Moffat's runs, but once you have it pointed out you'll recognise it.

Glazius

And this may just be some Umberto Eco-ass conjecture on my part, but I don't think D&D5 was deliberately engineered to suck up the conversation as much as it was focus-tested for engagement metrics.

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 ahhhh hahah, gotcha

doppelgreener

Related: HBomberguy's video on Sherlock is Garbage, and Here's Why, speaking just about the Moffat series.

AncientSwordRage

2:53 PM

I'm having a slow day

@Glazius those two things are probably close enough it doesn't matter

@nitsua60 I think a lot of that first bucket fill in with house rules

BESW

@Glazius Intentional or otherwise, I don't think D&D's use of those concepts to dominate the hobby space started with Next.

Glazius

And there's got to be something else going on in both cases. I mean, I'm not super-aware of a time where Freemarket dominated any kind of conversation. D&D has the franchise behind it and the rise of streamer culture. Apocalypse World was just some novel tech in that it went mass-market with the kind of codified negotiation stuff the Forge had been playing around for a while.

BESW

For example, AW's licensing created a small press boom which almost exactly mirrors the d20 System boom following the release of D&D 3.0 and the OGL.

Glazius

...crumbs. I'd love to keep this going but I got 2 hours of meetings.

BESW

Both of them made a freely-available license which effectively turned third-party creators into marketing engines for the original product, at the expense of homogenizing the market and reducing the perceived quality of third-party supplements in the eyes of the public.

AncientSwordRage

3:00 PM

@Glazius oof

BESW

I should be in bed an hour ago.

ttfn

AncientSwordRage

@BESW ciao for niao

Medix2

@AncientSwordRage I am definitely using that one

AncientSwordRage

@Medix2 it's hardly the first time I've used it

There was an old kids TV show called "How 2" which shows how to do science experiments at home, or explain how natural things happened

and to sign off the show they'd say 'That's How for Now"

so I sort of reused the rhyme

Akixkisu

Whether something is intentionally designed or rationalised as intentional design after analysing data is meaningfully different when selling a concept to designers. I am sceptical, to a degree, that Baker intentionally designed that, but as descriptive analysis, it makes sense. It kind of sounds like psych people poking at data until they have a neat explanation.

GcL

3:15 PM

@AncientSwordRage I concur. Show me the prediction of results of action not the postdiction.

Medix2

Regarding the recent tag meta question. I wonder how many users even read tag descriptions at all. Though, unfortunately, we can't get any data on that :(

AncientSwordRage

@GcL There is the old adage that you should create things that people love, even if it means some people hate it, rather than something everybody just 'likes'

GcL

I find the best plan is to indoctrinate them while they're children. Boxed muffins and cake and the easy off the shelf stuff that many at as a kid... adults still love it. It reminds them of their childhood.

Games from the 80's retooled with smoother graphics and controls more friendly to a 30 or 40 year old's reaction time are the new gold.

The Oracle

3:33 PM

0

Q: Counter the D&Disms in Tags!

Tags shall generally be generic. That means that they should not be specific to any one game unless they are specific to a game. A game-specific tag is aspectsbelonging to fate. As a counter-example spell-slots is apparently supposed to be generic. But its description has/had a hard reference to D&...

discussion tags

RevanantBacon

@TheOracle Not gonna lie, this comes off mostly as whining that most of our tags cater to D&D because it's the most popular system and what we get the majority of our questions on.

kviiri

@RevanantBacon I don't think that's the point

Personally, though, I think we have far less DnD-isms in tags than I'd've expected

Trish

@kviiri a single one is too much.

GcL

@Trish The perfect is the enemy of good.

2

kviiri

@Trish Well I agree there

RevanantBacon

3:40 PM

@kviiri I know it's not the point, the issue is the attitude

Trish

@RevanantBacon it is that all those D&D references make tags not appropriate for games that have no relation to D&D. MOST tags are without any reference to a specific game. Like attack or armor. In some cases a game and system are interlinked, like fate and aspects are Super interlinked - as in one is pretty much only for the other. So a game in the tag usage means usually "this is for Game X!"

GcL

armor and attack are D&D specific tags?

RevanantBacon

@GcL No, you read that wrong

They're saying [attack] and [armor] aren't D&D specific

GcL

Gotcha

Trish

@GcL no, they are good and generic. wish is D&D specific. but yesterday @Someone_Evil suggested a D&D-specific wording on a tag that he claims is generic. And that is not good tagging. Either it is generic, or it is not. My point is, that there should not be a generic tag that has any game in its usage guidance.

GcL

3:45 PM

I find "there should not be a generic tag that has any game in its usage guidance." to be a succinct and easily understood summary statement.

4

RevanantBacon

@Trish I agree, if a tag is supposed to be generic, it shouldn't reference a specific game. Like [Fighter] or [Attack]. The problem is, you just want to make every tag possible to be generic, rather than adding additional tags that are more specific as appropriate

GcL

That comes across better and is a great deal easier to understand than "Counter the D&Disms in Tags!"

RevanantBacon

Or at least, that's how you come accross

GcL

A shorter title, if you need one might be "Generic tags should be generic" with your summary statement being the lede.

RevanantBacon

You use very strong language and emphasize your dislike of D&D (or games even like D&D) being the dominant RPG in most cases

GcL

3:48 PM

@RevanantBacon I didn't see any strong language lifting, flexing, or otherwise pressing the point.

RevanantBacon

> I believe those should be burninated (In reference to the [Wish] and [Polymorph] tags for the 5e spell)

> What I rail against is, why should it be 5e AGAIN

> D&D-likes almost claimed Magus and that was a bad fight to get an ok solution.

it's pretty obvious that they have very strong feelings against D&D specifically

Trish

@RevanantBacon no, I hate 5e for being so lazy in approach.

It is JUST 5E

GcL

Let's just keep 2nd edition out of reach. Don't want to start a fire.

RevanantBacon

It sounds to me that it's more like you're mad the 5e was so popular. Literally none of the spells from 5e were named any differently from the same spells in previous editions.

But due to 5e's popularity, a lot more traffic came to the site

Which, by extension, caused tags specific to 5e to be created

GcL

@RevanantBacon There were a lot of spells that were dropped entirely. I, for one, missed sneeze and had to homebrew it myself! The nerve! Having to port my own favorites like a sucker! /S

AncientSwordRage

3:57 PM

@RevanantBacon It makes me want to ask D&D 2e questions about spells that it shares with 5E.....

Trish

@RevanantBacon I rail against 5E not because it is popular, I rail against it, because it is poorly written and managed. It is the philosophy of the managing staff of D&D 5E that don't try to make a game good. It's kept deliberately at a state one expects in a playtest! Especially the philosophy "Make up shit, use your players as testers!" without making any proper guidelines is annoying.

GcL

@Trish I doubt that's the philosophy of the managing staff.

AncientSwordRage

There's a decent core to 5E, but it's flaky round the edges like a delicious pie

Trish

@GcL it is how their work comes over to me. their work is so shoddy once you get out of the core stuff...

GcL

@AncientSwordRage I can concur with pie, but not delicious.

AncientSwordRage

4:01 PM

@GcL Flaky pastry is delicious...

GcL

@AncientSwordRage unless it's a cow pie.

Which is still a useful fuel source.

Trish

@AncientSwordRage less a pie, more an artifact left from a shirt after it is left in the ground for 100 years: one can make out the idea of a shirt, but the holes and frayed edges make it hard to guesstimate anything more concrete, and color is bleached out too.

GcL

Also an ancillary ingredient in traditional preparation of many earthen based construction materials that require mixing.

AncientSwordRage

nitsua60

@GcL I miss the old spell cantrip.

GcL

4:05 PM

@nitsua60 Was that the one that essentially got ported as prestidigitation?

AncientSwordRage

@nitsua60 it made mend obsolete

nitsua60

Kinda. But prest... has some effects that feel bigger (booming voice, IIRC?) whereas cantrip really was jut tiny stuff: snuff a candle, make someone sneeze, &c.

AncientSwordRage

if it can't rip, how do you mend it?

nitsua60

The stuff you can imagine someone magically-potent figuring out for themselves in grade school, before hitting wizard-school.

GcL

@nitsua60 sneeze was a separate spell from the unearthed arcana book.

nitsua60

4:08 PM

@GcL Appendix T: Polearms occupies all my memory-space for that book =)

GcL

Ha! Guisarme! or however you spell or say that.

Man catcher. Good for catching a man.

Disappointingly not actually a giant baseball mitt on a stick.

Someone_Evil

@Trish I gave a wording to represent the concept I knew and which we have questions about. If there are multiple different things using the same word, wouldn't having tags for those separate concepts be one of the key uses of tags? because the search function is for words and would not be able to separate them

Trish

@Someone_Evil My main point is: don't point to any system in a tag that is generic, or it is not generic.

doppelgreener

i suspect there's some signals getting mixed around this tag discussion

Akixkisu

@GcL yeah, I think that is wording that would be more successful.

Upper_Case

4:19 PM

If I understand it correctly, the idea is that narrowing to a specific game could be easily achieved by searching with the generic, systemless tag and also the desired system tag. Is that right? It might not be, I'm on essentially zero sleep today

doppelgreener

the thing we would be tagging for is the D&D spell. the concept we're describing is the concept that the D&D spell connects to. it'd be justifiable to either just describe the D&D spell (that's what we'd use it for) or to describe the concept.

that there are lots of things that use the word "simulacrum" that are a totally different concept will be an issue only if/when we start having questions about those things.

Trish

@Upper_Case YES

AncientSwordRage

@trish it sounds like your first two sentences in that meta post are tautalogical

would editing it to/adding in something more like this "My main point is: don't point to any system in a tag that is generic, or it [becomes] not generic." something you think you could do

I like the principle here, not sure about how you've phrased the Meta Post

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov I am gonna bounty my hand crossbow highwayman question, hoping to entice you and @Akixkisu into adding your answers.

Someone_Evil

@Trish The system mentions there are only to exemplify, not to limit. I don't think we should obfuscate tag descriptions by not referring to specific examples, that runs counter to how we do virtually everything else

5

Akixkisu

4:32 PM

@KorvinStarmast it is still on my mind, but I hate taking away from other player's roles.

Someone_Evil

If there are other examples, I'd be happy for those to also be mentioned, but I haven't heard clear notes that other systems use the same thing, but I may have missed something.

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast It is essentially, do what the battlemaster does, but you are also a bard.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 concur. I had to unlearn quite a bit of 1e AD&D systems mastery to finally get some of 5e's stuff ... and it took both re reads and asking questions. Put me in the 68 % bucket.

@Akixkisu IIRC, you had mentioned bard as the core of your answer (hence a frame challenge, which is welcome) but which bard? but I hate taking away from other player's roles don't worry about that. I know how to not step all over other players.

Trish

@Someone_Evil that's not how such a tag feels. It mentioned a system and bam, it feels inappropriate if the system does not match

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast I think you can get there with either Valour or Swords.

AncientSwordRage

4:40 PM

@Trish other's may feel other ways

Akixkisu

I'm thinking about Whispers though and I don't think you quiet get there.

Someone_Evil

@Trish I can see that. I think a better solution to that would be to empower to add the tag for that question having identified it as the same concept and then broaden the examples in the description

KorvinStarmast

@Akixkisu So maybe I can entice you into writing that answer? 😁

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast like I said, I'm thinking about it :)

Trish

@Someone_Evil but we only have so many characters in the tagging description, so just removing any examples is not only easier, it leaves more space for what the tag actually is

Akixkisu

4:44 PM

I will probably write one when I think I can build Whispers well enough.

KorvinStarmast

I now dance a happy dance

Trish

@Someone_Evil The examples all can go to the Wiki!

Cat of doom2

morning

KorvinStarmast

@Catofdoom2 \o

GcL

[Wearing a fedora] "It belongs in a wiki!"

3

AncientSwordRage

4:47 PM

@Catofdoom2 'lo

Trish

@Someone_Evil Think... Let's take it to the extreme: Mana/magic points is used in Warhammer Fantas and TDE, but I bet there are dozens of other games that use that tracking method over spell slots. Or Drain/resisting backlash, that'S how Shadowrun & Mage handle spell ammount limiting. But there are likely dozens of other games that use energy meters or resisting some backlash, and the list would soon grow super long!

Someone_Evil

Right, in which case identifying it independently of system should be fairly clear, and there are enough examples to justify not having all in an excerpt (up to none). That isn't the case here, and I don't think we'd be well served creating too much of a templated form for this. Do what serves the specifics best

Thomas Markov

@Trish I'd recommend removing reference to this question from your meta post, it's obviously a D&D 5e question that fell through the "dont guess the system" crack.

Cat of doom2

hello

AncientSwordRage

heya

Thomas Markov

4:56 PM

(Ive voted to delete that question btw)

Cat of doom2

can i host a vote?

!vote

Someone_Evil

Chat doesn't have such function, unfortunately. Was there something you wanted input on?

Cat of doom2

yes

i wanted to know if i should make a big deal out of my birthday. its on the 23rd but usually I never remind anyone but then I get sad that nobody rembered

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast So youre open to builds that are basically "good damage, party face, and thematically on brand"?

Cat of doom2

@Someone_Evil should I use unique dragons in my campaign? not like homebrew but the one-of-a-kind dragons from all the different modules or manuls or guides.

Thomas Markov

5:02 PM

@Catofdoom2 Do they provide something that the vanilla dragons in the monster manual do not?

AncientSwordRage

@Catofdoom2 you can remind people it's coming up, but I wouldn't ask anyone to do anything unless I was up for organising it

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov I for one much prefer strawberry or chocolate dragons

Cat of doom2

@ThomasMarkov often they're more of a challenge but they also have more charter and personilty.

AncientSwordRage

"I'm looking forward to my birthday on the 23rd" <-- subtle hint for them not to forget with an "I" statement. OR "I'm doing X on my birthday, do you want to join me?" <-- it's a formal request so there's no ambiguity

Cat of doom2

@AncientSwordRage nice

AncientSwordRage

5:05 PM

if they say no, or still forget you did what you can. Everyone else's reaction/behaviour is our of your control

Please don't fill chat with dice

Cat of doom2

ok

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Someone might slip on them and/or step on the d4.

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov yes, I did mention that frame challenges are welcome, but I also admit that my placement of that point is at the end of one of the sub paragraphs. A good frame challenge may solve my problem. 😊

AncientSwordRage

Dice roller & formatting tests playgr…

The roller supports: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20. You can roll ...

It's called a playground for a reason :D

Thomas Markov

@KorvinStarmast Would you permit a warlock? I know patron baggage can make those less desirable to RP.

Trish

5:09 PM

@ThomasMarkov it's not a bug, it's a feature.

Cat of doom2

digital campaign manager.

this is where i'll (cat of doom2) host my champign. i'll try m...

that's my weekly posting to that chat

KorvinStarmast

@ThomasMarkov it's in sub para 2 of concept: during my initial review, I ruled out the other archetypes (particularly Assassin, due to how clunky surprise is in this edition) but frame challenges are welcome

RevanantBacon

@Trish Then it's no different than any other edition of D&D that's ever been released. Wizards/TSR don't exactly have the best track record in regards to both balance and quality

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

I do have to wonder who is considered the benchmark for the best track record for balance, quality, or both.

(You can tell that I'm [forever?] in a search for a new go-to system for all my future campaigns, yeah.)

AncientSwordRage

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I only have so much time to work on my system :D

KorvinStarmast

5:21 PM

@NautArch @Someone_Evil @AncientSwordRage can one of you all move this to the trash? I can't delete it anymore. Thanks.

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica Obviously, Original Traveller is the answer here. (yeah, I am occasionally a smart alec ...) 😁

AncientSwordRage

someone beat me to it

Someone_Evil

I wonder who

AncientSwordRage

Someone Evil, that's who

Trish

@RevanantBacon no I meant: That that one question was found to be missing its edition, because OP never came back. THAT's a feature of the stack system

RevanantBacon

@vicky_molokh-unsilenceMonica I know a guy who's like that. Without fail he decides he doesn't like it and goes back to FATE XD

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

5:25 PM

@RevanantBacon Well yeah my current two go-to systems are GURPS and FATE, both 4e. But there are reasons I'm not entirely happy with either.

RevanantBacon

@Trish I think there's some confusion. I was replying to your statement that 5e was poorly/lazily written outside of the core books with the assertation that every other edition has had the same kind of problem.

Trish

@RevanantBacon 3.5 at least had not "We are lazy, use your players as guinea pigs" written on the tin.

GcL

@Trish That was entirely my impression of 3.5 and the three dozen source books I have that generate multidimensional edge cases that were further confounded by tiers of play.

Also, small calculation errors or understanding of how to do some part of the extensive calculations could result in dramatic swings of result.

Trish

@GcL They didn't put it into a box forthe GM though. They might have implied it, but never spoken something akin to it back then.

Thomas Markov

5:42 PM

@Trish Providing information about non-spell slot methods in the spell-slot tag wiki seem entirely irrelevant.

Dice roller & formatting tests playgr…

digital campaign manager.

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