TRPG General Chat - 2021-03-20

« first day (3824 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (1154 days later) »

AncientSwordRage

12:02 AM

@BESW I think based on the users history I don't think there's much to do

Otherwise good advice

12:57 AM

hey @AncientSwordRage you still about?

1:13 AM

Need them specifically, or can I help?

AncientSwordRage

@Shalvenay sure

@AncientSwordRage need some help workshopping my latest Q I think, not quite sure where I went off the rails

AncientSwordRage

Not sure I'm the best person to ask, but fire away

-2

Q: Denying (NPC) divine casters the ability to regain spells

I am playing an epic D&D 3.5e PC in a medium-optimization (for an epic 3.5e, as I understand it, at least) game: Most regular spells are available to the party (modulo those labeled Evil), although Wish/Miracle are significantly nontrivial in cost Magic item creation isn't something that can be ...

spells dnd-3.5e optimization epic-tier

only thing I can think of is that it's too open ended...

3 hours later…

4:51 AM

@NautArch But I didn't cite where in the DMG it is, I asked a DM if they had bothered to read the freaking DMG. If they had, then we could discern where in the DMG guidance on how to do it was that they were interested in the guidance was unclear or insufficient ... as with a lot of other spots in the published material, some bits are easier to digest than others.

@MikeQ Isn't 5e supposed to be usable for free with Basic materials?

5:17 AM

@BESW I thought it was supposed to be, hence raising the question of whether it's fair to expect everyone to have access to all the pay-only expansion books.

That does seem r🐘.

Not just "all," but any, even.

I know very little about Basic materials. Do they contain DMing guidance or are they all player-facing the way most of the d20 SRD was?

The d20 SRD was designed so that you genuinely couldn't play effectively with just the free materials because it was missing the how-to-use parts --the SRD was really aimed at third-party developers rather than end users-- but I've heard that 5e is different.

The 5e basic rules have the minimal instructions about how to run a game of 5e. The DMG has stuff for worldbuilding, campaign structure, and optional rules.

Whether the basic rules document has enough guidance to play effectively... depends on what "effectively" might mean.

What's relev🐜 here is that the basic rules do not indicate what's in the DMG, so someone who has read through the basic rules wouldn't necessarily know that the DMG covers stuff like player race customization.

That's legit.

(As an example of usability, the d20SRD is so stripped down that it specifically, explicitly excludes any product that contains "a process for Creating a Character" or "a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character.")

5:36 AM

Also, the 5e basic rules (free) is a subset of the Players Handbook (not free), and only contains some of the options for classes, races, spells, and some other stuff.

Limited options is fine for playability, so long as it's not leaving out necessary material for making the existing options work.

On a completely unrelated note, RPGSE has a firm stance against piracy or using unofficial 5e SRDs/wikis.

Aye. Even if the only argument that got it to something like a consensus was "illegal sites become dead links" rather than... you know...

4 hours later…

9:13 AM

@BESW I struggle to imagine the purported purpose for this

you mean you struggle to imagine the purported purpose porpoise

Yes, the purple one

9:28 AM

;P

@kviiri So that it’s easier for third parties to make D&D 3.5 expansion products than use the d20 SRD as the basis for an independent game that won’t be tied into the Wizards’ cash machine.

10:29 AM

Eebning all

AncientSwordRage

@Shalvenay Maybe? I'm not the best person to ask unfortunately

2 hours later…

12:35 PM

John Brieger wrote a twitter thread about why Candyland is a masterpiece of game design that designers should be studying and dissecting as one of the best examples EVER of game design craft for specific audiences.

2

1 hour later…

1:46 PM

I don't like it personally but upon reading the thread I am forced to agree if only strictly in context

I prefer to be able to at least to some degree influence the outcome of a game, but the most rudimentary definition of a game I have dictates interaction not necessarily influence

XD

I do prefer at least a little influence but preference and definition have to be separate

I say this mostly because I saw a lot of people in the thread arguing that it isn't a game based on the influence angle :/

I'll never be Candylands biggest fan but TIL it's rather interesting origins and have at least a little more respect for it now XD

AncientSwordRage

2:38 PM

@BESW I especially find it interesting how it is used in therapy even with teenagers

2:52 PM

Sad that these armchair critics keep pushing the "this game doesn't interest me, thus it is not a game" viewpoint

AncientSwordRage

@MikeQ so from a certain technical point of view it's not a 'game', but they forget that that doesn't mean Candyland isn't enjoyable or useful in certain circumstances

From a wrong point of view, yes

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

There is the recurring question of what people are actually trying to communicate when they write 'this is a game' or 'this is not a game', or even 'this is playing but not playing a game'.

I immensely enjoyed reading some VNs that were linear or borderline linear and lacked any sort of gameplay. Yet had they been advertised to me as 'games' without further explanations of the lack of gameplay, I'd feel mislead at worst and miscommunicated at best.

I suspect there's a sampling bias issue, where generations of young folks are primarily exposed to a small set of game design patterns, and so they learn to equate "game" with a very narrow definition. Like if someone was raised on a strict diet of bananas, they might not understand that eggs are also food.

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

Subsets and supersets and the ambiguities of terminology.

I wish there were more precise terms that don't overlap and don't lead to flamewars.

3 hours later…

Hot RPG Questions

5:40 PM

1

Q: What do the Hunger of Hadar whispering and slurping sounds do?

Hunger of Hadar (DnDBeyond paywalled link to PHB) has this audio effect: You open a gateway to the dark between the stars, a region infested with unknown horrors. A 20-foot-radius sphere of blackness and bitter cold appears, centered on a point with range and lasting for the duration. This void ...

dnd-5e spells hearing

Hot RPG Questions

6:05 PM

4

Q: What's the area of Hunger of Hadar whispering and slurping sounds?

Hunger of Hadar has this audio effect: You open a gateway to the dark between the stars, a region infested with unknown horrors. A 20-foot-radius sphere of blackness and bitter cold appears, centered on a point with range and lasting for the duration. This void is filled with a cacophony of soft...

2 hours later…

AncientSwordRage

8:11 PM

@MikeQ I'm basing this off of the definition given by Game Designer Mark Rosewater: magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/…

> A game is a thing with a goal (or goals), restrictions, agency, and a lack of real-world relevance.

> So, is Candy Land a game? My answer is no, but with a little caveat. If you are young enough to believe that by picking the card you are influencing the outcome, I would argue that the game has agency for you and thus, for you, it is a game.

8:39 PM

That definition feels... well, like it was made by someone for whom games have never been necessary.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that's a good insight

Like, drawing cards and moving a game piece can be a powerful demonstration of agency for a bedridden person, without the need for condescending "well maybe if you don't know any better" caveats.

8:55 PM

Activity people actively engage in for fun. Subset of entertainment with the difference being a game is not passive for the participant. As long as they're doing something, it's probably a game.

@AncientSwordRage Are the kids having fun? Do you get 10 minutes of respite? If so, it's a very good game!

And as TRPG players I think most of us understand at some level that the real value of a game is how we interact with others. Candyland is, very importantly, a story the kids are telling together; it's also a structure for socialization between scared strangers, where competition is pretended but the arbitrary nature of the cards takes the teeth out of losing or winning. The act of playing, the journey, is the focus.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I guess it's a matter of scale, and perspective

I think for its intended audience, it's probably not far off the mark?

At what point are we just moving round who gets to call what a game?

I had an argument with some at university that only arcade 'games' are games. Things like first person shooters with story lines are interactive stories

9:11 PM

That's pretty silly

@AncientSwordRage It's nice to define what terms mean for the scope of the subsequent writing or conversation. Defining universals concretely is difficult. I leave it to the philosophy and ontology folks.

I mean first person shooters aren't my absolute favorite (although I have played some I enjoyed) but I would still classify them as games

Jigsaw might have some words about what it means to play a game.

Lol

No I draw the line there

That isn't a game it's very one sided

Would you count a choose-your-own-adventure book a "game"?

9:17 PM

Yes actually

Absolutely. Some of my favorite solo TRPGs are built on the CYOA chassis.

It's got a very set range of outcomes but that's not disqualifying

(Also, a ton of "games of chance" have the basic unit of agency being "when do you choose to walk away?")

AncientSwordRage

Is running in a 100m race a game?

@AncientSwordRage It can be.

9:19 PM

I could classify it as one

Hide and seek is a game

Why is competition to see who can run the fastest in a set distance not a game?

sports are typically games we have given another label to make them seem more serious and adult

So the people yelling at their team don't feel like children for getting so wrapped up in the outcome of a game

AncientSwordRage

@trogdor I agree with the article that some sports are games and others aren't

@trogdor As a competitive athlete, I agree :D

XD

AncientSwordRage

For myself, a game needs to include a decision.

Otherwise reading a book is a game

(and I mean a linear no choice book, not a CYOA)

Lol

9:25 PM

It can be... such as racing to the end to see how fast you can finish.

a deer is game

@Mithical I was going to say, you could make a game of it

I don't think it's really possible to define what a "game" is, since there are so many different ways things can be "games".

Although you can make a game of practically anything if you are creative enough

You can say we're making a game out of coming up with examples of games, which is a bit meta.

9:27 PM

I think it's a fun game to debate what a game is as long as you aren't denying other people's definitions of it as valid

@Mithical I would say that's exactly what we have been doing

XD

Feb 18 '19 at 3:17, by BESW

We Are But Worms: A One Word RPG

... now I'm not sure if I should post another "is X a game" question

@bobble Love me some choose your own adventure. Going back limited by the number of fingers needed to hold the book up.

@GcL that's no barrier if you get a piece of paper and tear it up into bits for use as bookmarks. I've also used pieces of string/yarn.

I'm rarely that prepared. Yarn is a good idea. Might try that sometime to keep track of the story thread

9:45 PM

If you dig into sociology or behavioral sciences you get a whole new way of thinking about games: as practice and training for skills, both physical and social. Baby horses play at gender roles, kittens play-hunt, ants play-fight, etc.

AncientSwordRage

10:05 PM

@BESW is play different from game?

If so, seems like splitting hairs.

@AncientSwordRage Are slot machines games?

The regular "push button/pull lever" kind of slot machine? Are you including slot machine minigames?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW some are, at least by the definition I'm working from

Is watching a movie a game?

10:20 PM

I think vanilla watching a game isn't a game, but you can make a game from it

I'm a radical game anarchist now I guess XD

Searching for easter eggs in a movie can be a game

Oh yes, a lot of the modern movie-watching experience is VERY much a game.

What is Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker if not a massive pattern-matching game?

Avengers: Endgame even has "game" in the title! hehe

lol

Oh, the Marvel cinematic franchise makes "being a fan" into a game, that's how they drive social media engagement.

10:26 PM

I can't argue against that

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I'd say more of an identity

@BESW it can be but not necessarily

@AncientSwordRage Speculation and theorizing, searching for clues, behind-the-scenes secrets... It was Ike Perlmutter in the boardroom with racism, it was Agatha all along.

Remember all the "which movies hinted at the Infinity Stones" articles?

@BESW thank you for getting that song stuck in my head again

It’s I Spy Books: The Film Franchise.

Lol

I did love the I Spy books

10:32 PM

I have an I Spy jigsaw puzzle

Past tense only because I don't have any around anymore

I think something this whole conversation is exposing, is that humans will make ANYTHING a game.

Isn't "gamification" one of those buzzwords?

Aye, but that's not exactly the same thing.

Gamification is not the natural impulse to make a thing a game; it's a specific technological exploit of that impulse.

Poohsticks is a game; Poohsticks is not "gamifying" dropping stuff in a river.

Now I have "The Wonderful Thing About Tiggers" stuck in my head

10:37 PM

A lot of education used to be gameified studying. Not sure if that's still the case, but getting the coveted strawberry sticker for your 13's multiplication tables was an achievement.

Everyone got the star right away. That was for 10s. Easy peasey lemon squeezey.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW but if I drop sticks in carelessly that's not playing a game

If I start betting on how you're going to drop sticks carelessly, then I'm playing a game.

Lol

@AncientSwordRage Is it fun to see how they tumble? That might be a game.

Or is there some internal narration about it? probably a game.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL that's the possibility of making it into a game

10:48 PM

You can't tell if something is a game to the participant by observing.

Game to one person might be torture to another.

@GcL Is an element of fun required for a game?

AncientSwordRage

@GcL I've been in those groups

I'm not sure. Probably? If it's an activity that's not being enjoyed.... I might call it a crappy game. But if we're going down the ontology rabbit hole of "what is a thing?" I would probably require an element of fun. So the game-ity of a process a dependent on a state of the participant.

Gamification is the application of game mechanics to things that are not normally games, to, you know, game-ify them and change/improve the experience. There are apps that add RPG-like XP and levelling systems to chores and to-do lists to try to motivate people. The Stack Exchange system of reputation and badges is gamification of Q&A.

in The Reading Room, Mar 16 at 4:08, by bobble

user image

"rabbit hole"

(there's a hole where the rabbit will be added later)

11:13 PM

@bobble eheheheh, that's a good one

The cross-stitch rugs/pillows I make are made while listening to HP and TTRPG podcasts :D Nice way to relax after a long day.

« first day (3824 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (1154 days later) »

Transcript for

Mar '2120

TRPG General Chat

Main chat room for tabletop role-playing games. Anyone can ask...

dice pen-and-paper roleplaying

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile