TRPG General Chat

3:01 PM

I don't even need them to change one thing, but some of the organization. Put the *rules* (which, if you think of it, are like 5% of the core books) all up front in one place. Characters work like this. Ability checks/saves/attacks work like this. Spells work like this. Monsters work like this. Magic items work like this. Encounters work like this. Adventures work like this. Long-form campaigns can work like this or like this or like this. Here's a list of things that, taken together, create the sense of a setting.

Someone_Evil

3:14 PM

@NautArch Doesn't 3.5 have alignment restrictions on classes? Donno if PF abolished them

MikeQ

@NautArch In PF1e yes, monks had to be lawful, barbarians chaotic, paladins LG, and druids any neutral

LizWeir

@nitsua60 different philosophies here, I think - I tend to vibe with games that deliberately structure themselves around a given framework enough that separating the system and a specific game in that way is more difficult. I think the D&D-that-is can't easily be separated from some of the implicit setting elements that come from the classes, for example, and I think what the system focuses on and the way the classes interact with that are... yeah, tied together

to be clear, I'm on the "I enjoy D&D but I think there are vastly better games around" end of things, but I think what I mean by "better" differs from what you want.

nitsua60

3:32 PM

@LizWeir I guess I'm just saying that the dozen classes listed in the PHB are given way too much prominence, and that at the system level the classes are really Stick, Sparkle, and Skill. Because at the rules-level, you can attack, you can try to avoid magic, and you can use your stats.

Each example class is just some mixture of those, with setting elements laid on.

@LizWeir :thumbsup: =)

Mark Wells

@nitsua60 That might be one of those things that seems like a good idea when you have a fair amount of RPG experience and are thinking like a GM: "Here's the toolkit I can use to build and run a campaign." Packaging it as a complete system-and-setting reduces the barrier to entry for new players.

ACuriousMind

@nitsua60 I think that's deliberate. In my experience, many players don't are all that much about the details of the system. Their first (and sometimes only) question is "But what can I play?", and the answer to that is the classes, not some generic explanation about what characters potentially can have. The "systems as a toolbox" view is far from universal and in many groups only taken by the GM, if at all.

NautArch

@MikeQ gotcha, just making sure :)

Mark Wells

@nitsua60 But yes, the PHB classes are in a weird space between "high-level archetypes" and "premade example characters you can customize". It's really unclear why they're segmented the way they are.

nitsua60

@MarkWells I'm saying that you can still package that all together. I just want a little reorganization and an up-front, sincere, boldfaced statement that "these are examples, people. Make it your own! That's D&D!!!"

MikeQ

3:40 PM

@NautArch In PF2 I think champions (paladin replacement) are the only ones with alignment requirement, which each subclass having its own requirement (LG, NG, CG). This is already an issue for a player in the test game I'm in. They want to be a paladin (LG) of a CG deity, and they're hesitant to disobey the rules text.

nitsua60

@ACuriousMind Right. Last night I was talking about how I think campaigns start off best when "what can I play" is met by "well, what do we want to do/what stories do we want to tell?"

NautArch

@MikeQ My question was initially about a site question, but I"m actually starting to have alignment issues in a campaign I'm playing in. We'll see where it goes and what happens, but i'm a bit worried about party cohesion.

nitsua60

@NautArch sovereign glue will solve those problems.

Ohh... cohesion. Nvm.

NautArch

hehehe

I'm not sure that playing an evil character is the right fit in a party for Avernus.

Mark Wells

@nitsua60 This exists, it's called "OSR" :)

MikeQ

3:43 PM

@NautArch Probably not, although you could have a table discussion about the differences between an evil-aligned hero vs an evil NPC, and what that means in terms of actions and boundaries

NautArch

@MikeQ i'm not the DM, but i brought up the concerns to the dm

And i'm not evil, i actually chose neutral so that I wasn't and it gave me freedom for pursuing be better while still failing at doing so at times.

ACuriousMind

@nitsua60 Paralysis of choice is real. When the answer to "What can I play?" is "Everything you want to.", the answer is often "I don't know, really.". When you present them X archetypes to choose from, many people have a much easier time filling in the blanks with their imagination (or even going "Hey, can we change this part even though it's not written as a choice?") rather than coming up with something from scratch.

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 XD

nitsua60

@MarkWells Yeaaaahhh... there's plenty of OSR that I want to stay plenty away from, though. I'm asking for WotC, the preeminent purveyor of RPG goods in the world, to be placing at the fore "these are tools for you to make not just an adventure, but a game. Enjoy!"

@ACuriousMind Yes, to all this. My thing, though, is when presenting those choices, to start with "okay, do you want to play a train heist? Monster hunters? The Dirty Dozen?" And then start looking at things like classes/races.

LizWeir

4:05 PM

see that's the level I'd be looking at game systems

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened url in answer (56): Scribing a scroll with an enhanced Spell-Like Ability by Jitendra Singh on rpg.SE (@Rubiksmoose)

Mark Wells

@LizWeir Yes. If you're picking an archetype for what kind of group this is and what kind of story it's in, that's the level where it also makes sense to pick a system that supports that.

nitsua60

4:21 PM

Sure. If I could get anyone around me to try anything other than 5e :sadface:

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 Double sadface.

nitsua60

But! I might start playing again next week (traveller, with a GM I haven't been able to play with for 3 or 4 years), and I have a plan to make non-D&D happen. So this could be a good summer :happyface:

Rubiksmoose

(which reminds me, I still have vague ideas to run a Stack one-shot of something for Stack folks at some point....)

@nitsua60 huzzah!

MikeQ

Is there a sign up sheet somewhere

nitsua60

In the planning office. At the bottom of the basement stairs (missing last step). Down the hallway (the bulb's out). Through the door (sign says "beware of tiger"). In the (locked) filing cabinet.

MikeQ

4:37 PM

Hey, at least that sounds more feasible than any of my attempts to get a campaign off the ground. I've mostly given up running anything anymore.

Rubiksmoose

4:51 PM

@MikeQ hah! As if I'd ever be that organized XD

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5:28 PM

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goodguy5

6:05 PM

@LizWeir Thanks! It came up in a conversation and I had no idea

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