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00:01
@nitsua60 Looks ok to me. Mentions -why- you like it.
@V2Blast thanks for the tip!
@BlackSpike thanks for the look-see.
(afk a bit)
hum, I have this open in a tab, someone linked it here a few weeks ago and it has been sitting there for a while i.sstatic.net/t7H3S.jpg
I finally decided to use it on a game... The room connections are easy but I'm trying to make isometric maps of every room (so 2 drawings per room, 3 walls each) and it's killing my brain
@nitsua60 Looks good to me as well.
also, a minor note about AL - apparently there have been a few minor rules updates last month: dndadventurersleague.org/al-campaign-rules-updates-january-2020
@Someone_Evil You're not wrong about "include" being ambiguous, but I've only ever seen it as an exhaustive list, and previous versions of the Player's Guide/FAQ have explicitly said something like "only these are allowed rules sources, no others". And other references to the PHB+1 rule in the DM's Guide/FAQ also point to the same list.
 
3 hours later…
03:10
@V2Blast Thanks again for posting these - I know you don't get a lot of appreciation for it, but I for one am really grateful.
That's true, it's very nice of you to inform people of it
I don't personally like the epic game store/launcher but I'm sure some people are fine with it and appreciate the deals
03:26
@trogdor Oh, I haven't signed up for it yet. But if/when they give away something that's tempting enough to sign up just to get, I want to know about it XD
i don't care much about it, not use the epic launcher that much... I sure go and get the free games when they pop up. I might wanna play those sometime shrugs
That's fair
I would have been tempted by Aztez actually, but i already have it
@trogdor That's happened to me a few times now.
@Miniman Glad to help! :)
@Helwar Hahaha. Same. I'll get to these games eventually... along with the 300 others I own on Steam :P
03:41
yup
That is the other thing, i think i have about 2 dozen games i want to play but that i haven't touched yet
the backlog is strong in us
Then i have maybe 3-5 that i have started but not finished
And another half dozen or possibly more that i still go back to either regularly or intermittently
04:01
@trogdor The...frontlog?
@trogdor And the sidelog, I guess?
Lol
Maybe I'm weird, but i have a buch of games i like that have a lot of replay value
And i like burying myself in one or two of them at a time for a while and then i need a break from them after some amount of time or other
Then i move on to a game i can play through just one time
Then i get into the replay value phase again XD
These are the six walls of the inside of a cube with "subjective" gravity
is it understandable? or have I gone too far?
whatever hatch you enter by will be "down" for you, not really subjective but... variable?
It seems understandable to me
I would totally be lost in there but the image conveys the concept well at least
(i get lost in stuff like that easily)
there are 8 rooms like this, and 3 timelines xD
luckily I know my players, they kinda defeat escape rooms in record time, always
so I have trust in them
I would be utterly lost if it weren't me doing it
Yeah
I mean, the only reason i could play Portal was because i was placing the portals
04:11
haha
I thought about adding portals to this, 'cause they are all super portal freaks. Buuut it was too much
So i knew where they went because i put them there
I once ran a scenario in a cube that turned to a random side (roll a d6) every round and everything/one not fastened down slide or fell accordingly.
The goal was "get to the exit on side 6" while flying enemies (thus not subject to the disorientation unless somehow grounded) are trying to stop you."
Well, also Portal 2 co-op but that was just one other person collaborating with me where we would both be putting portals, not much worse than placing portals myself
that sounds fun too
@trogdor Try some community chambers. A friend and me got stuck in one for ages, because they kinda made a new mechanic, where you have to jump and swap portals!
@BESW This is more a cerebral puzzle, rather than a fighting one. Wich would be cool too
I have enemies, and different "versions" of the characters moving around the dungeon, so there is combat
 
1 hour later…
05:21
@Halwar. So its basically the tesseract from the Cube series?
 
1 hour later…
pwi
pwi
06:41
@Helwar Rotating the right hand image 180° could make it a bit easier to understand since horizontally it would wrap WNES and U would be on the top, while D is on the bottom.
07:41
@V2Blast Oh my! We used to love Pandemic back at the Univ.
We usually had groups of me, SO and 1-3 other people, often newbies. Typically we let them choose their own actions while not quarterbacking unitl we were about to lose, they had picked up basic strategy and then do awesome maneuvers on the last turn or two to salvage the situation
By my experience new players often ignore the "time limit" loss option, which is sensible. The cubes on the map feel more urgent than the deck of cards where you notice it's growing thin when it's already too late
08:14
I played Pandemic for the first time last month. It was enjoyable!
it did sound interesting when you described it to me
09:08
Pandemic has a cool concept, many character options supporting wildly different playstyles, and a simple enough core mechanic. It's good
My only problem with it is the relatively simple mechanic which makes it easier for single player to run the whole show
The one role that lets you move other people around?
No I mean, telling other players too much what to do around the table
09:28
1
Q: What does a strength check of 24 actually mean?

ZachIn the 5th edition of Dungeons and Dragons, barbarians receive this ability; Indomitable Might Beginning at 18th level, if your total for a Strength check is less than your Strength score, you can use that score in place of the total. As a level 20 goliath barbarian, with a strength sc...

 
2 hours later…
11:27
1
Q: What are the ramifications of changing Armor Class to be Constitution-based instead of Dexterity-based?

Alistair SinclairIt's never made much sense to me that your Armor Class is based on your Dexterity modifier, which carries the implication that you're harder to hit because you're somehow nimbly moving out of the way of an attack, whereas armor is about making you harder to injure (which seems right up Constituti...

12:27
4
Q: Does the race of half-orcs on Khorvaire in Eberron have its own name?

Quadratic WizardI recall that the half-elves of the continent of Khorvaire in the world of Eberron have their own name, the Khoravar. Is there a similar special name for the half-orcs of the continent of Khorvaire?

 
1 hour later…
13:33
@HotRPGQuestions This is a great question.
Just do what 4e did, tie each defensive target number to the better of two of the six ability stats.
I did actually like that
@kviiri I've run into this a bunch: "I'm not very good at this game, player to my right is, so in the interests of the team I should definitely just do whatever they say." It's obviously a potential dynamic in any cooperative game; I don't know why it (in my experience) really jumps to the fore in Pandemic more than others, though.
13:51
@nitsua60 Pandemic is simple enough mechanically that it's very easy for one player to keep track of everything
there's not a lot that you worry about at the level of an individual character
@nitsua60 There is certainly an epidemic of the pandemic dynamic
@goodguy5 It's systemic. Seems like the polemic is totemic.
pandemic's also very popular so I'm guessing it's a first or early game for a lot of people who aren't too experienced with boardgames
(I play with an epistemic academic: that's how we know.)
@nitsua60 It's certainly endemic
But this word game aside, I actively have to avoid that phenomenon. We've played a fair amount of Pandemic and I'm often viewed as the "best player", for some reason, and I will tell people that I'm not going to tell them what to do.
14:04
my friend Greg specifically designed one of his games to stress working memory so as to make it a lot harder for one person to track and co-ordinate everyone else
@goodguy5 So... you're working for the virus?
=)
@nitsua60 I'm working for group enjoyment
14:37
@GcL If you subscribe to revisionist history, sure. I'm citing the origin myth. :p
14:52
Well, @doppelgreener your notice for better support and hammer reopening has led to more upvotes to an unsupported answer. :(
15:14
@NautArch That was expected, people are gonna upvote anyway. :P
But they've also just now revised it
@NautArch I've removed our comment exchange as well. I still think there could be a great frame challenge there though: "I haven't experienced this working and it's disastrous when it doesn't. Here's experience of it failing and going off the rails, for example. Here's things you can do instead, which are not merely gently hinting or foreshadowing, but work at communicating what's going on."
@doppelgreener I haven't yet figured out that part (or tried it.)
I've really just experienced the fact that both as a player we rarely pick up on clues and that as a DM, my players haven't either.
GcL
GcL
@JohnP Believe what you want, but H2G2 is the origin.
@GcL You are such a heathen. Adams merely had a better publicist.
On a side note, I really liked the netflix(?) adaptation of Good Omens.
@NautArch gotcha, no problem
Genuinely the first time I think I've seen someone say "Here's what I've done. Here's how it worked: it didn't." I'm interested to see how that answer fares.
It doesn't provide a useful solution, but it does provide a useful and cited answer ("what you're looking for hasn't worked")
GcL
GcL
@JohnP I agree. Being The Truth is the best publicist.
@JohnP You must not have signed the petition. It was an Amazon production. telegraph.co.uk/on-demand/0/…
15:31
@GcL Yeah, we have both. I can never remember which one had what. I just say "Alexa, good omens".
GcL
GcL
All the streaming options are a pain to keep track of. I blame the cats.
@doppelgreener i'm gonna guess not well
answers that arne't positive usually don't get positive responses
Yeah, I'm concerned about that
You haven't played in games with a singular reveal though, or something like that?
I'm not too worried about negative response. It's honest and true.
If folks don't agree, that's okay.
But people want things to work.
ANd maybe i'll learn something about how to do it better for folks it did work for.
GcL
GcL
@NautArch Are we talking about the "How do I give my players information and then have a plot twist" question?
15:42
Yeah
I think we also have a question on the stack about the 3 clue rule or something?
What's funny is that also Aventinus' answer is that it didn't work, but that they were okay with it
@JohnP I don't think so, that's for when they've found the clues. this was something around clue volume to be noticed.
but that does mention the 3 clue rule...
time to create
maybe alternately [clues-and-telegraphing] or something
found a few and put them as related
@NautArch If you delete the slugs in the link, you can fit more of them in.
15:55
@doppelgreener slugs?
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/164381/how-can-i-drop-hints-that-a-seemingly-innocuous-gnome-village-is-secretly-evil
rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/164381
rpg.stackexchange.com/q/164381
all 3 of these point to the same page the same way
oh geez
how long have I been doing this for?
11
Q: As a DM, do you have the authority to fudge the rules?

MonkeyKBAs a general rule, I try not to fudge the rules unless it hurts my players' fun not to do so. In the final encounter of my last scenario, an NPC I had written as a hook into the next adventure was killed outright by a specter's Life Drain. When asked if that NPC was dead (during combat) I respo...

That links to the alexandrian page on the 3 clue rule.
/how-can-i-drop-hints-that-a-seemingly-innocuous-gnome-village-is-secretly-evil <--- this bit is a slug (as in dose or linotype); it's a human-readable portion of the URL that the server itself actually ignores so it's optional.
Using the share button also provides the shortened version right away (with your id at the end for the sharing link badge)
15:59
badges? I don't need no stinking badges.
@Sdjz yeah, easy way to get the shortest version. you can delete that too if you really need the extra characters.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/164381/1204 <--- my share link, the /1204 is my user ID
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/164381 <--- generic short link (same as the 3rd line in my post above)
@doppelgreener oh neat. didn't know about 'q'
likewise you can shortcut to answers using a
16:03
Secretly: q and a are completely interchangeable. Here's an answer link: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/164386
now what bothers me is that /posts/ is special
similarly, Amazon links can be dramatically shortened:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BK9QB2/
If you're the kind of person that posts the entire garbage link amazon provides, shame on you
@goodguy5 do your friends a favour and delete all the tracking information!
do we need the gnomes tag on that question? That doesn't seem relevant. But don't want to start a tag war.
@nitsua60 Well, I could compare it to Spirit Island, for instance. In Pandemic, each player can perform roughly the same set of actions, so it's relatively easy for an experienced player to get a quick look at the board and figure out what the group as a whole should do.
16:08
@doppelgreener Wait... What happened to question number 164386?
Whereas SI plays with a deck-building style power assortment to each player, and it's very hard for even an experienced player to keep constant track of what powers the others have.
pwi
pwi
@NautArch Was just about to come here and ask about the tags there lol. Aren't tags supposed to reflect the topic of the question so that answerers can find questions better? Is it policy here to add them based on the content/context? Seems strange to me.
Or does the number just increment for each question and answer, hmm
@NautArch oh, I already x'd it
@Medix2 Yes
16:11
@Medix2 medix: the id is for posts, which might be questions or answers, yeah.
pwi
pwi
@Medix2 rpg.stackexchange.com/a/164386 yeah
How did I only just now realize you can remove https:// from the links...
@V2Blast gonna get them, thanks for the tip! You roxor the boxors
can someone ping me?
@JohnP Pong!
16:21
Hrm. My headphone seems to be banjaxed.
brb
@JohnP banjaxed is one I'm not familiar with
o i c, it's from over the pond
@goodguy5 don't worry, I am from over the pond and I have never heard it
16:39
@Medix2 There is no question number 164386. :) Questions and answers are universally just considered "posts" by the system, and posts have an ID. Post number 164386 is an answer. It belongs to the question with post number 164381.
@mods_ Is there a way to migrate an answer into a question or vice versa?
Nope
It's been something we've regularly asked for though
@Carcer There's a similar trick in Mechs vs. Minions, where the card-drafting step in each round is on a fairly short timer from the moment the cards are revealed.
"Hey, this person asked a perfectly good question, but as an answer. Can we please have an option to convert it into a question?"
17:02
0
Q: What tags should questions get?

pwiIn the comments on this question I noticed a discussion, and on visiting chat I saw someone already talking about it. Here are the relevant comments from the question's comment section: One more thing, the dnd-4e tag may be misleading unless you think that 4e, in particular, may provide some ...

17:39
Suddenly, snow.
18:08
Made a second pass at homebrewing a "Path of the Titan" Barbarian subclass, for dual-wielding two-handed weapons: homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/print/By-8RVtbAH
@Xirema The ability score total requirement confuses me. Is this designed to use the standard-array? You would be very limited in your racial options
@Medix2 This subclass would probably be difficult to use under point buy.
Deliberated on the actual number for awhile, originally had it set at 31 and might go back to that.
@Xirema Earthquake is an 8th level spell but this barbarian would get it at 14th level. Is that intentional?
@MikeQ Yeah, I'm fine with that. It's a little early, but it's only that specific spell, unlike any spellcaster who gets a choice of spells at level 15.
How does this interact with lances?
Actually, also Heavy Crossbows and Longbows for that matter
18:18
@Medix2 I'm guessing I might have to restrict it to melee weapons, since Ranged Weapons don't qualify for Two Weapon Fighting anyways.
@Medix2 Lances are already weird, since a character with the Dual Wielding feat could dual-wield Lances while on horseback according to the base rules of the game.
Do they gain the versatile damage die of a versatile weapon when wielding it in one hand?
@Medix2 Not as written, no.
Currently just worried that Cleaving Blow doesn't scale, well, at all
@Medix2 Could add some text like "At level X (probably 11 or 12?) you add the damage dice twice."
Mostly just don't know how I feel about choosing between [Reckless-Attack+Extra-Attack+Rage-Damage] and [Cleaving Blow]
18:24
@Medix2 I mean, you'd never use it in any scenario where you're only attacking a single creature.
Unless their AC is like, insane, but their Strength score is low, where Cleaving Blow is more likely to guarantee damage.
I am, though, a little bit worried that a 10' cone only generally targets a maximum of 3 creatures, which is probably low enough that a feature like this becomes unworthy.
Oooh, wait, idea.
@Xirema why not 32?
> When you gain the Brutal Critical feature, the damage of your Cleaving Blow increases by one Weapon Die for each additional die your Brutal Critical feature is granting. You may choose which weapon the additional die is coming from.
Food for thought: Having Titanic Stature allow them to completely ignore Petrify, etc... once per long rest?
@goodguy5 Also a number I considered! But 32 and 33 are, in my estimation, both in the same order of magnitude of difficulty with respect to building a character in point buy.
31 allows you to pick a race that only has a +1 to one of the stats and then just give 15/15 to Strength/Constitution to get to the threshold. 32 requires either a +2 in one of them, or a +1/+X to both.
33 is slightly harder, needing that +X to definitely be a +2, but that only cuts a few otherwise qualifying races (human, half-elf).
variant human still could with specific feat choice
18:33
@goodguy5 true.
But I still think the real choice is whether I set it at 31 or 32/33, at least for right now, and given that flavor blurb that comes before it, I think 31 is probably more appropriate.
31 would at least be achievable with the standard array of ability scores. If my math is right then 32 is the maximum.
^ Also that.
A Mountain Dwarf can get to what... 34?
Interestingly, small characters can dual wield large weapons, though I don't see an inherent issue
Great Weapon Master + Two-Weapon Fighting, interesting
18:39
@goodguy5 Yeah, if I didn't do that that would exclude the aforementioned Mountain Dwarves from actually benefiting from these features.
And the verbiage on Cleaving Blow seems a bit weird, but that could just be because I expect it to be the same as whirlwind attack: Make an attack against everyone
@goodguy5 Yeah, and I'm wondering if I should go that angle instead.
One "workaround" would be to allow choosing this path even if you don't meet the ability requirements, and then "activate" it at 4th level with ASI. That's kind of weird, though.
2
Q: What should we do about people downvoting to try and push subcommunities they don't like off this site

Please stop being evilI understand that people are in charge of their voting, and we generally avoid legislating voting in any way as it is fundamentally unenforceable. Nevertheless, the use of downvotes to explicitly discriminate against rpg communities the voter dislikes concerns me, particularly since such explici...

18:42
@RyanC.Thompson That's actually something I revised from the previous version. Older version just said "you must have a strength score of at least 17 to take this path, and if your score drops below 17, you have to take a different path. Your DM can opt you in at level 15, but all ASIs must apply to Strength until your Strength score reaches 18."
Which felt like a case of Design Kludge, way more than this one.
Maybe you could place a separate strength/con requirement on each individual feature?
It's more complicated, but makes it less onerous on early levels
Or just have the features scale with Str/Con
@MikeQ Scaling doesn't make sense for a lot of these features, e.g. the ability to dual wield big weapons
I think placing restrictions on individual features probably doesn't make sense. I'm alright with putting a restriction on the earliest level at which you can receive the path, but once you meet those requirements, I think it's okay to allow ASIs to be applied elsewhere in service of multiclassing/RP needs.
Unrelated note: Making Cleaving Blow a STR save feels weird. Intuitively I expect it to be a dex save, especially if it's avoiding multiple weapon swings. I'm assuming this ability is an attempt to use a lesser-used save. Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting the flavor text?
18:50
@RyanC.Thompson Yeah, a previous revision did use DEX instead, and that was the reason for the change. Not sure whether I want to go back to DEX or find a way to make the flavor work better.
19:01
@kviiri That's a fair point
So this has turned out to be surprisingly divided: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/164437/…
@RyanC.Thompson it is interesting, isn't it
though I'm not surprised there is a disagreement given the wording of the text
@RyanC.Thompson I don't think I'm currently focused enough to put together a good answer, but we've always read it as area affects only.
which jives with the two examples
I don't understand the confusion existing but... I guess that's on me
fwiw, I am of the opinion that despite the claim that "5e doesn't have fluff text", 5e actually sometimes has fluff text, which isn't meant to be read as mechanically restricting.
19:07
I don't recall the area effect restriction ever being referenced in actual play that I've seen
Every instance of something applying to "area effects" lists spells/abilities that it works on, and they are all, well, area of effects
@Carcer yeah, me too. But I don't think this is fluff.
5e totally has fluff
The ability will most often apply to area effects but I don't think it is intended to be restricted to area effects.
burning hands...fluff for the hand motion.
@Carcer then why only give examples that actually are area effect?
19:08
My interpretation is possibly biased by coming from 3e, where Evasion just applied to anything that allows a dex save for half damage.
and there wasn't any ambiguity about that
The Paladin's Divine Sense feature starts with "The presence of strong evil registers on your Senses like a noxious odor, and powerful good rings like heavenly music in your ears." and clearly that's not something that's always happening.
interestingly, the ring of evasion doesn't have the line about area effects or the examples of relevant spells that are only area effects.
There aren't very many examples of non-AOE dex-save-for-half effects, so if they just chose 2 random dex-save-for-half examples, chances are they'll both be AOE
@NautArch because almost all examples of dex for half are AOE, yeah
imho sanctuary spells it out quite clearly, but clearly that's not agreed upon
GcL
GcL
19:10
@NautArch If you remove the such as clause, which was meant to be clarifying, the spell reads a lot simpler.
@NautArch I'd consider that supporting evidence that evasion ability isn't meant to be limited in that way.
It protects against an "attack or a harmful spell" but not "area effects" such as "fireball", meaning fireball is definitely an "area effect"
@V2Blast Should be noted though, that it's not necessarily a problem
When we had only experienced players on board we liked Pandemic as a committee game too
I think my biggest "evidence" is that it says "area effect" and not just "effect". "area" must mean something
@RyanC.Thompson that's assuming they're random and not on purpose, though. I'm not sure that's a safe assumption.
19:12
I'm not arguing that the first sentence doesn't specifically name area effects, nor am I arguing that area effect isn't a well-defined game term. What I'm unsure about is whether the first sentence is intended to be read as limiting.
GcL
GcL
@kviiri That's a good way of looking at it.
@Carcer what evidence is there of that/ Asking for outside evidence to circumvent the actual mechanic evidence seems not great.
But quite often we did have a mixture of experienced and new players and it required a bit of practice to let new players make mistakes
GcL
GcL
@RyanC.Thompson Yeah. "When subjected to area effects." When that happens, ability applies.
@NautArch IMHO it seems obvious that the property of the ring is to allow you to evade like a rogue does and if the ring isn't restricted I'd infer the rogue isn't meant to be, either.
19:15
Interestingly, it's a different wording for rogue and monk (not just different examples of AOE dex saves)
Not that different, but not identical
@Carcer yeah, that's where I was going, too. But the rogue's specific mentioning of area and the two spells being area seems really really hard to ignore. BUt it does make the ring better.
wondering if there are other rings that have similar class mechanic copying that are also different.
@NautArch like I said, my camp is that despite what might be claimed 5e definitely has fluff text and that is an example of it, it's a one-liner which is descriptive of the ability's benefit but isn't actually intended to be read as mechanically limiting
I would agree
someone should tweet Crawford :P
Isn't there an item that gives you the monk's projectile catching? I think it works a bit differently
Yeah I was trying to see if he'd said anything on this, but it seems not
19:19
@V2Blast no, don't do that, he might do that thing where he rereads what he wrote several years ago and draws an inane conclusion
@RyanC.Thompson that's almost exactly the same as the monk ability, the monk is just even better at it and has a bonus option if they spend ki
@Carcer To be fair, IIRC the "no fluff" Tweet only stated that spells have no fluff. Though even that is dubious at best lol
Also, by a permissive reading, the first line isn't incompatible with also dodging not-AoE effects; after all, it says that you can dodge certain AoE effects. It doesn't say that you can only dodge certain AoE effects. The effect of the following mechanic is that you can dodge certain AoE effects and also certain other effects too.
4
Q: What protects me better from damage: Plate armour and a Shield, or Dodge?

Orc's PlunderI am playing a Cleric mainly but I took one level in Rogue as it helped me with the Expertise and Stealth. I want to know what has more potential to reduce damage for my PC. In the party I tend to have a balance of doing damage and doing some healing. My character is one PCs that tends to take qu...

GcL
GcL
19:24
@Carcer Can you dodge anything with a dex save that does damage?
I just realized prismatic spray is hard to explain/describe. You fire exactly 8 beams, but could hit like 15 creatures all with the same single beam and miss them all with the other 7.
@GcL arguably, the fiction represented by a dexterity save is the act of dodging something
@Medix2 Just say that the beams dance around like a disco ball, sweeping randomly across multiple targets.
GcL
GcL
@Carcer True. Is any dex save for damage covered?
@GcL Any effect which allows a dex save for half damage, as the line actually describes.
19:25
@Carcer With that level of reading the feature is nearly useless because it only applies to things that allow you to make a Dex Save while most everything forces you to make one
Prismatic Spray = Disco Ball of Death
@Medix2 we seem to have very different ideas of what a "permissive reading" means
but my husband is done youtubing and so it is critical role time
ciao
enjoy
@RyanC.Thompson A much more fitting name
@RyanC.Thompson As opposed to "prismatics pray", which is what happens when someone finds the sword Ascalon.
Or "Prisma Tick Spray", which is a brand of bug repellant
GcL
GcL
19:30
@Carcer Seems reasonable. So, why have the first line of the spell description at all? Area effects seems a peculiar thing to add in if it's not meaningful.
@GcL it's a rough descriptive summary of the benefit offered by the ability
GcL
GcL
But it makes just as much sense without the word "area"
actually, more sense without that word
yeah. To be honest, I'd also consider this badly written.
I can sympathise with a RAW reading that says it limits it to area effects, I just really don't believe that's actually intended by whoever wrote it.
anyway I watch things bye
GcL
GcL
Probably incorrectly written if it was meant to be applied to more than area effects. Poorly written constraint if just being applied to area.
Yeah, regardless of which reading is RAI, it's poorly worded to convey that RAI
19:34
I hate to ask, but since folks mentioned "intent"...has there been a tweet?
I couldn't find any, though I only search for "Evasion" in Crawford tweets
Weirdly, I never once thought it applied to anything but area effects
Yeah same ^
@Carcer I assume you're referencing the Shield Master ruling, and I agree with the revised ruling - never understood the logic of the original anyway :P
GcL
GcL
@NautArch I think I used to run it as any dex save for damage.
19:36
@Carcer agreed
@NautArch which edition did you start on?
I've only taken Evasion as applying to "any Dex save for half damage"
As I mentioned my reading might be coloured by previous editions, e.g. 3e: "At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage."
(I started with 5e)
When it comes to Shield Master, I don't let people make the Shove before the Attack action, but I do let them use it during (in the middle of) the Attack action
GcL
GcL
19:37
Good edition to start with.
FWIW I was introduced to evasion via Critical Role's Vax
I'm pretty sure the AOE clause never came up
@RyanC.Thompson the CR guys were playing Pathfinder before converting to 5e in which evasion worked the same way as in 3e (and they have definitely had occasions of edition baggage because of that in the past)
As I mentioned in the comments, I tried looking for non-AOE dex save traps, but there aren't any in the DMG sample traps
@Carcer Oh, that's a good point
Definitely wouldn't surprise me if they just gave the 5e text a quick read through and decided it was the same thing.
This is the blue/black vs. white/gold dress of 5e rules.
Ambiguous, but in a way that everyone who reads it interprets it one way and never even thinks of the other.
@RyanC.Thompson what is that?
The dress is a photograph that became a viral internet sensation on 26 February 2015, when viewers disagreed over whether the dress pictured was coloured black and royal blue, or white and gold. The phenomenon revealed differences in human colour perception, which have been the subject of ongoing scientific investigations into neuroscience and vision science, with a number of papers published in peer-reviewed science journals. The photo originated from a washed-out colour photograph of a dress posted on the social networking service Tumblr. Within the first week after the surfacing of the image...
19:46
@goodguy5 Yeah, I hang out with a lot of brit/irish expats
oh that's mind bending
cool thanks!
@Medix2 this has been "errata-ed" multiple times, has it? At first someone said you can't do the bonus before, then someone said yes you can, and now we're back on no you can't O_o
@RyanC.Thompson Of the social media mind-twisters, I think this was loads better than the Mandela effect, which was at its core essentially "there's no way I misremembered something, obviously someone changed the fabric of reality".
20:00
I really hate dealing with aging crap that someone else neglected.
Realistically, the actual difference is in how much latitude you apply to the "certain area effects" part of the description.
I think the fact that the text is different for rogue and monk argues slightly in favor of it being flavor text
Actually, here's something: there are various listed monsters that are basically simplified PCs. One of them is the Master Thief, which seems to be modeled on a 13th-level thief rogue: dndbeyond.com/monsters/master-thief
And the Master Thief's Evasion omits the "flavor text"
I think the assassin gets the same feature "Evasion"
@Carcer technically Ad&d, but that was so long ago it's mostly 5e
20:16
@Medix2 Yeah, the Assassin looks to be modeled on a 12-level assassin rogue: dndbeyond.com/monsters/assassin
Flavor Text or not, the fact that the clauses are separated makes me think that "certain area effects" simply doesn't apply. As though the feature is actually conferring two effects, but neglected to explain the mechanical consequences of the first.
^ Relevant.
wow hahaha
Too bad it wasn't an area effect or he could have taken half damage
6
Q: By RAW could I save a level 1 character that took damage exceeding twice its HP?

JFLYesterday I DMed a session with a party of four level 1 characters: druid, sorcerer, monk, barbarian, and a level 1 warlock whose player was absent. The sorcerer specifically is a new player (less than 12 session of play, grand total). The others are experienced (several years) RPG players but ...

20:39
Even more directly, there's Viari from Acquisitions Inc., who is very definitely based on a PC rogue, whose evasion ability in his stat block omits the first sentence. dndbeyond.com/monsters/viari
20:53
See also: UA Sidekick Expert's Evasion: media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA_Sidekicks.pdf
Expert's Evasion makes them "skilled at avoiding certain dangers"
Read a bit of the stuff re: Evasion. Ugh. Personally (and I think D&D 5e authors would back me up here!), the DM makes a decision. Job done. Arguments can be made after the Session, but can be rebuffed with "DM made the call. Live with it"
@Xirema I actually can't figure this out
like, the "joke"
wikipedia has a run-down of it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-gry_puzzle
I'm still none the wiser, though! (But i rarely am after reading wikipedia! :D )
@BlackSpike The relevant ones are the "Meta Puzzle versions", #s 3 and/or 4 are the ones being invoked in the comic.
@goodguy5 Here's a better explanation: explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/169:_Words_that_End_in_GRY
Part of the joke in the comic is that the guy didn't even say the riddle correctly.
21:07
@RyanC.Thompson that would explain things ... :)
Which was what I was referencing, the way that *Evasion* is written, it might be valid to interpret it like this:

1. you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a red dragon's fiery breath or an ice storm spell.
2. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

But it's written all in one paragraph, which implies that both are referencing the same thing. And RAAI (Rules-As-Assumed-Intended) seems to be tha
@Xirema What do you think of the instances of Evasion that omit the first sentence entirely?
Including several in monsters that are clearly based on rogues
@Xirema if it was the first case, then #1 means that with Evasion, you completely avoid any effects from those 'certain area effects", does it not?
Another reading: "You can nimbly dodge out of the way of 'certain-area' effects ... " i.e. effects where the area is known ("certain").
@RyanC.Thompson Then they would only have clause 2.
@BlackSpike Possibly—but like I said before, in that case it reads as though the description neglected to actually explain the mechanical consequences.
For the Question's given example (Immolation), I'm pretty sure that it is an area effect. That area is "about the size of the target creature".
"Flames wreathe one creature you can see within range. "
But it's lazy writing ... I mean a good example of empowering the DM to make their own rulings.
When missing any system-based rules, we fall back to "normal English".
"Nimbly dodge out of the way" == "avoid" == "not affected by"
21:22
@BlackSpike That looks like two deviations whereas normal should be more within one standard deviation.
3
Q: Weighing up the combat benefits of 3 different multi-class builds: Druid/Rogue/Cleric

ET got homeI will have a dilemma as to where to up my levels and I would like some advice with this. So far I have taken: 3 levels as a Druid (Circle of the Shepherd) 3 levels as a Rogue (Mastermind) 3 levels as a Cleric (Disciple of Life) This build has great synergy in my purpose as the main "suppo...

@HotRPGQuestions I think higher levels of Druid would give you bigger creatures to wildshape as, therefore making it the heaviest multi-class build.
(Although "Evasion" and "Avoidance" are very, very different in the specialised language of Taxes ...
(But I'm not sure how many DEX-based Save-vs-area-effect-Tax rolls there are)
@BlackSpike Is it that different? One is just legal, and the other is... legal as long as you don't get caught... right...?
@Yuuki The "heaviest" wild shape is almost certainly earth elemental on the 10th level Moon Druid though
a bunch of rocks are gonna outweigh even the mammoth
@DavidCoffron Depends, which is heavier, 1 cubic foot of dirt, or 1 cubic foot of water?
21:36
@Xirema Almost all rocks are denser than water (i.e. they sink), so the former
Here in UK, it is VERY different (legally)
Tax Evasion is a CRIME, for which you will be PUNISHED HARSHLY!
Tax Avoidance (also termed "Tax Efficent") is good business practice, to be appaluded (apparantly)
@DavidCoffron That would do it.
@Xirema Oh, wait. I forgot the brontosaurus is an option.
That might trump the rocks, those thingas are very big
@Xirema If I assume the volume of a large creature is about 173 liters (based on this analysis: reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/2u14fp/…), then an earth elemental (with around 1600 kg/liter, the low end of "average rock density") gets to 276800 which does beat out the bronto at only about 40k
I dunno, a Druid/Rogue/Cleric multi-class might dump INT, which would make it very dense indeed.
Oh my lord my math is not right!
1600 kg/cubic meter =/ 1600 kg/L
Should be 1.6 L which yields an earth elemental of only 276 kg
21:50
@DavidCoffron Yeah, I wasn't checking the details, but Brontosaurus' are described in the MM as being two size-classes larger than Earth Elementals. So for their weights to be comparable, the Earth Elemental would have to be at least 64x as dense.
@Xirema Definitely not the case, meat is pretty dense at around 1000 kg/meter^3
Assuming they also fill about proportionately similar spaces of their bounding cubes, too.
rocks at the highest end are 20000, not 64000
Even pure osmium would only be like 22k
Now if the brontosaurus was made of something less dense (around 50kg/m3), then a smaller earth elemental (out of a denser, but not requiring to be super dense) would still take the cake
Are all the numbers being thrown around consistent? 50 kg/m3 is really light seeing as water is 1Mg/m3
@Someone_Evil Hm? That's how non-dense a brontosaurus would have to be, in order to be less heavy than an earth elemental on the higher end of average rock density
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