TRPG General Chat

6:00 PM

@Delioth depends on what you're fighting. a slap from a goblin, not a big deal. a bite from a trex? bigger deal.

oh no. why? you need better playmates

My only complaint with the 4Element monk is that the monk does not get access to all of the spells/spell-ki-things, but has to pick a few. Monks are more "divine" than "arcane" so I'd prefer to see them more like cleric/paladin for spell access.

It would not add power, but it would add options and choices. A lot of people still thinks it's a bit too underpowered.

Delioth

Mind, I've never played with those houserules because I'm either defacto GM or Assistant to the GM

goodguy5

I always hated the "you attack yourself" nat1 houserule

2

Delioth

(Pathfinder 2e Monks are where it's at)

goodguy5

"I'm wielding a scythe, I don't want to attack myself. what if I crit?"

KorvinStarmast

6:01 PM

@goodguy5 yeah, needlessly penal to martials.

Delioth

"Attack yourself and auto-crit"

goodguy5

that's truely insane

user15026

@goodguy5 That does feel like a terrible idea.

user15026

@goodguy5 I guess you, at best, lose a foot?

Delioth

"Actually, just count it as a coup-de-grace, you know where to hit for ideal killing potential"

Xirema

6:02 PM

@goodguy5 I am considering adding penal nat1s to Attack Rolls made with Disadvantage, but only if both rolls are a 1.

goodguy5

oh man, I miss scythe-barians.

Yuuki

@goodguy5 Some people make critical failures absolutely absurd.

goodguy5

My Pathfinder barbarian wasn't the best at things, but when he crit everyone knew it.

+6 strength bonus; +2 from raging. Power attack for +4. two handed to bring the total up to 2d4+18

multiplied by 4 on a crit for a minimum of 80 damage.

Yuuki

@goodguy5 Just imagine that in every combat encounter, each party member fights their own edition version of the monster.

Rubiksmoose

We used PF critical fail rules. Dropped weapons, broken weapons, attaching self, the whole deal. It was bad.

goodguy5

6:05 PM

@Yuuki that's much scarier

what happens for monsters that don't exist in one edition or another?

user15026

@Yuuki oh this hurts my brain

Yuuki

The party only fights one Tarrasque but everyone rolls against their edition's statblock.

goodguy5

such as .... uh... those shadow-jerks in ToEE? basically shadow elementals; can't recall the name

Rubiksmoose

Hahaha

CTWind

@Yuuki Nonsense, a level 20 fighter trying to attack an invisible target should definitely have a 1/3 chance every turn of breaking their sword and falling on it. [/s]

Yuuki

6:07 PM

> "I rolled a nat 1."
> "You die. Everyone dies. Reality is destroyed because you triggered vacuum decay."

goodguy5

@Yuuki actually makes enough sense for wild mages... chaos? you know the one

Zachiel

@Rubiksmoose I used to use (lol) the 2e crit fail table in a 3e game. We're still talking about the time the cleric slipped on a rock and suffered a concussion, causing his orc samurai cohort to drop the sorcerer (the sorcerer previously caught him in the area of a fireball in order to hit more enemies), run at the enemy who was over the unconscious cleric and proceeded to crit miss himself, getting an out-of-socket arm that prevented him from using his weapon.

The fact that the whole thing stated with the cleric trying to shot with a crossbow with the fighter giving cover to the target, in retaliation for having been hit by a friendly arrow from said fighter the round before, just made it all more memorable.

Rubiksmoose

That's insane lol

kviiri

@CTWind Having been to the army, I can confirm that roughly 5% of the times I attempted anything ended with me weeping like a wee baby and bleeding out of some painful yet embarrassingly small wound

Zachiel

@Rubiksmoose And the cohort name was Gundam because the cleric player once saw Gundam crit and the damage surprised him so much he uttered "Who's this guy, Gundam?"

Rubiksmoose

6:19 PM

Hah!

Zachiel

Question: would a question about the pros and cons of hosting a game for coworkers be on topic?

Delioth

Unsure if here or workplace.se would be best

Zachiel

(Or I might just rant a bit about why this won't probably work)

Delioth

In any case, it's probably Opinion-based for either se

Since it depends heavily on your specific office culture

Zachiel

I've seen a question on The Workplace where one guy joined a coworker game and ended up betraying killing the rest of the party on his first game evening, causing the coworkers to ostracize him in real life.

Or at least to never ever trust him again.

Delioth

6:22 PM

Yeah, there's got to be a certain level of trust as a baseline, an understanding of the game vs life vs work, and a certain culture

Hot RPG Questions

6

Q: If a Druid sees an animal’s corpse, can they wild shape into that animal?

A Druid’s wild shape says you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before. However, if a Druid sees the creature’s corpse, can they turn into a living version of the creature?

Rubiksmoose

@Zachiel yes! I was just thinking about that one actually

Delioth

I'd play D&D or Paranoia any day with my dev team, even if one of the guys went off and killed everyone in game and we'd be fine. I can't say the same thing about playing with our sales team

Rubiksmoose

I mean in Paranoia that is par for the course if not outright encouraged

Zachiel

So right now I have the following situation: most coworkers either have a shorter pause than my 90 minutes, go home for lunch or either phone home or go buying food at the supermarket right after eating. So I guess there's not many people available for the game.

Delioth

6:24 PM

Yeah, there's nothing you could do to get me to play paranoia with a group of coworkers that's not my team (other than paying a few years' salary :P)

In any case I'd not be comfortable trying to play a solid TTRPG in even 90 minute chunks; other board games could be effective though

Zachiel

I know there's some people who go to the gym instead before lunch, so they're out too, but this leaves me with an unknown quantity of people who just eat in their office and then do nothing for around 1 hour.

Delioth

And they can remove some of that lateral ability to really ruin someone's day/character

Zachiel

I'ts just me wanting to play more D&D

Delioth

Fate or Gloomhaven might be good? I've not played Gloomhaven before so I can't say if 1-hour chunks would work, but Fate could work

Zachiel

And maybe finding someone who's not a disillusioned D&D player who just plays characters because they like the mechanical choices.

Delioth

6:28 PM

D&D in hour increments would just feel weird because it becomes like, one combat in a session (or one combat across two sessions)

And doesn't allow that warm-up period while people are getting into character

Zachiel

I'd like to play the same adventure I'm playing with my current party, but with someone who cared about getting the setting and the characters right as a priority. Which is funny because that's exactly what I can't drive myself to do in my usual play by chat games.

Delioth

Any reason you're not looking towards more story-centric systems?

Rubiksmoose

Agreed. I'm not sure if I could make 1 hour D&D sessions with without significantly changing the way the game is run

Although I have heard tell if people who have done similar things so I don't think it's impossible

Zachiel

I mean, the encounters are so weak in that avdenture that I'm adding the advanced template to everything, I forgot to have my players level up once and they almost killed the overleveled NPC with double their HP that they were supposed to beat with some external help (which was cool because she managed to ran away and they plan to hunt her later).

@Delioth Because I like the kind of characters that D&D produces, I guess.

Delioth

What kind of character is that?

Zachiel

6:32 PM

Overpowered, needs to think hard to find out something that works, players are rewarded for being smart.

But it's probably just me not feeling smart enough when I play characters myself.

Delioth

Is there a reason you can't make a Fate game with that kind of character?

Overpowered: lower all opposition expectations by 2; needs to think and reward for smart is baked into the system by the flexibility Aspects/Compels/Create Advantages give

Zachiel

As a player, because I'm not proactive. As a DM, because I'm not good at deciding how things should work mechanically (adding or removing aspects and that sort of toolbox thing). D&D character attacks a wall? Oh, it's hardness 8 and 75hp per foot, let's do math

Delioth

It's Fate, let players help decide how those things work

That's like rule 2

Fate Character attacks a wall? What's the goal? Are there (different) interesting consequences whether they succeed or fail?

KorvinStarmast

@Zachiel a few of us RPG.SE people answered that Q.

Zachiel

No, that's what I don't want to do. The world works as the rules say it works, the players can find ways to go around it. In fate if just feels (even if it's probably not true) that they bake the cake and then eat it.

Delioth

6:36 PM

Well yeah, that's kind of the point

The world works the way the world works, and the rules only work to describe that

Zachiel

Also, I have a story to tell. My aim is to see how characters behave inside this story. Dungeon World can't do that and I guess Fate can't either.
And finally, I like to explain the rules. The more the rules, the more I can explain (which is also why I shouldn't involve people just to satisfy me)

Delioth

And get out of the way to be descriptive instead of prescribing how the world works

Zachiel

Unstated additiona aim: to learn creating a proper 3.PF character for myself and my ongoing 3.5e game I have no intention to leave (but talking about it always ends badly here so I'd probably better not).

Delioth

Fate can definitely do the first one, but the second one is definitely a deal-breaker. And wanting to build 3.PF characters is obviously not gonna be itched by playing Fate

goodguy5

I've yet to play a fate game that feels the way I know it should in my heart

Sir Cinnamon

6:46 PM

" I will talk to that player, because I can do anything as a DM" Sounds like an abuse of power to me

Zachiel

So the scene went like this:
-coworker: you talked about D&D once, but what is it like?
-me: well, that's not easy to explain...
-coworker: why don't we try it sometimes?
-me: well, games can be a bit long, and I will need to prepare something, and we also need to ready characters before, but I can prepare some for you.
-me one week later: I think I got it in my mind and we could try a short game
-coworker: mh, I don't think I'll be in.

>_>

Delioth

Someone who ended up at nearly double the average party level might need an abuse of power to get back in line

@Zachiel Put it in the file cabinet and have a short campaign already prepped for whatever

Sir Cinnamon

Speaking to players is strictly forbidden

Zachiel

@SirCinnamon lol

once at a Christmas dinner my boss joked about using one friday morning to game instead of working. My reply was "Better not, you wish one morning was enough".
Morale: I'm so scared of what could go bas that this idea of playing a game feels more like a lure I desperately try to avoid whenever I can state it aloud.

goodguy5

no 'e'

what could go wrong?

Yuuki

6:54 PM

@goodguy5 with 'e'

goodguy5

I mean, I suppose he (?) could be stating the subject's overall impact on his feelings

Yuuki

I meant that the answer to "what could go wrong" is "morale, workplace morale is what could go wrong".

goodguy5

ah, fair

Delioth

🚨 Hands up, this is the Pun Police 🚨

@Xirema On your crit success/fail, this is one of the best parts of pathfinder 2e

Xirema

@Delioth Oh?

Delioth

7:08 PM

Success/Fail by 10 are crits, nat 20/1 increases or decreases the success by 1 stage

so if DC is 15, 25 is critical success, 5 is critical fail

If I'm rolling with +10, then a 15 on the die is a critical success, but if I'm rolling with a +2 (so I can't reach critical success by pure numbers), 20=22, which is success but the nat20 upgrades it to critical success

If I'm rolling with +15 (so a nat 1 would be 16, or still success), the nat 1 downgrades it from success to failure

But not critical failure

KorvinStarmast

@Xirema in the last year, in my brother's' game, we've had six instances of advantage rolls of both being 1 and both being 20. No idea if that helps you, but when they happen we all go "wooo" and sometimes, like on an intimidatin check, the DM will add a little oomph to the result.

goodguy5

4e crits were just max damage, iirc.

so, we started calling natural max damage rolls jank-crits

Delioth

It could be more interesting to make it "If you have advantage and one die is a natural 20, AND if the other die's result would succeed on its own, then you get a critical success" (and the inverse for disadvantage && other result would fail)

Maybe

Xirema

@Delioth Hmm. Would definitely increase the odds of getting Critical Successes/Failures.

KorvinStarmast

@Delioth makes grumbling noise fiddly bits grumbling noise fades 8^o

Delioth

7:21 PM

@KorvinStarmast Aw, it's not that fiddly

It's especially fine since the rule is exactly like that for all d20 rolls in the game

kviiri

@goodguy5 Some weapons did extra damage on crits iirc

Delioth

@Xirema The worry on that is that it starts hearkening back to the days of critical confirmation rolls

And by "hearkening back to", I mean "it's critical confirmation but with extra steps but throwing dice only once"

Xirema

@Delioth I think that's fine, TBH. My general issues are A) I don't like Critical Confirmations, but B) I think the 1/20 chance of a Critical Failure/Success is too high.

Been listening to Dice Funk, which uses Critical Successes/Failures, and it seems like they happen multiple times in a single, 1-2 hour session.

GcL

@Xirema it's just auto-fail... not critical fail

Xirema

I want such events to be Rare enough that you go multiple sessions without encountering any.

GcL

7:30 PM

Better be a hell of a payoff then.

Yuuki

@Xirema Add a brown bear with a weird bird living in his backpack.

Xirema

Hence why my houserule piggybacks off the Advantage/Disadvantage system; you're already rolling 2 dice, why not make use of it?

GcL

Are you changing the payout for a crit then?

Xirema

0

Q: Do these rules for Critical Successes and Critical Failures seem Fair?

I'm thinking about implementing the following houserules at my table to try to bring back the concept of "Critical Successes" by piggybacking off the Advantage/Disadvantage system. Critical Success Whenever a creature makes a d20 roll with advantage, if both dice in the advantage roll re...

dnd-5e house-rules

GcL

That doesn't answer my question satisfactorily. It says "DM discretion".

CTWind

7:34 PM

One other option is 'you crit succeed on a nat 20, but only when you have advantage' and 'you crit fail on a nat 1, but only when you have disadvantage'. Yes, the odds of each are high when you have (dis/)advantage, but that's still less of the time than just on every nat 20/nat 1.

GcL

It's also conflating attack and skill checks.

Zachiel

While under the shower I've been thinking about why I'm only considering D&D, and I think the main reason is that I don't want to abandon my comfort zone. (I'm not really completely comfortable with D&D either, I keep missing conditional bonuses and forgetting about enemy capabilities, but at least I know how to improvise within that system)

Xirema

@GcL (It's my question: I'm proposing a set of changes, trying to hash out what makes sense/is fun/has impact on the game)

GcL

@Xirema Critical failures are never fun when they happen to you.

goodguy5

are any of the languages in GGR verbal-only?

re: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/144917/34716

Delioth

7:36 PM

@Zachiel Protip: Any improv you can do in D&D, you can definitely do in Fate

Someone_Evil

@GcL That depends on DM creativity, and if they only have do that a small fraction of the time, each time can be more creative (=fun, depending on mindset)

Delioth

@GcL Only if you're trying to win, and not trying to tell an interesting story

CTWind

@Delioth I feel like that's a false dichotomy.

Xirema

@GcL Certain kinds of failures are unfun. Not all kinds. A 1/20 chance to drop your weapon every time you make an attack is frustrating, but a 1/400 chance on a check you were already narratively making under poor conditions is interesting and engaging.

Delioth

Failure doesn't preclude an interesting story, and critical failure under specifically bad circumstances definitely isn't a boring story (more boring is the group of heroes who, even when faced with disadvantageous circumstances, could not ever have a bad outcome to trying to attack)

GcL

7:40 PM

I don't agree with that. You can write tiered success for skill checks already. Many modules do this for gossip or intelligence gathering with investigation or persuasion. A series of DC's with different outcomes.

CTWind

@GcL I know some 5e causes of petrification are instant if you fail the save by too much.

GcL

For skilled individuals, you can narrate the consequence of failure ahead of time... because the character would probably already be able to estimate that.

@CTWind Yeah. Fail a save by 5 or more comes up a few places.

Zachiel

@Delioth without Fate looking like D&D, you mean? I've played a game of FAE and one of Fate that looked like the GM was playing D&D and - maybe since I wanted to try those games and their ruleset - it felt bad.

Delioth

@Zachiel Yeah. I mean, Fate leaves the table totally open to whatever you want to do

Zachiel

@Delioth Mh, then I guess I expected Fate to be way different.

Delioth

7:44 PM

It actually tells you flat out to describe your actions first

THEN decide whether there are different interesting consequences for both success and failure

and then and only then, think about what you should roll

CTWind

D&D does that too, though. PHB basically says "Tell the DM what you want to do. DM tells you if you should roll for it."

I know there's more differences under the curtain than that.

Delioth

Kinda

Zachiel

@Delioth That looks like it rewards people for being good at "if I want to roll this, then I should put myself in this situation first". Interesting

Delioth

D&D says you should do it that way, but in reality, D&D prescribes what you can do in many situations (in combat you can take these actions under these conditions)

GcL

@Delioth Well, it provides rules for a bunch of stuff and leaves it the individual table to figure out the rest.

Delioth

7:47 PM

Fate says to do whatever, the rules only exist to describe what you're trying to do and to insert drama into play by codifying failure to some extent

Zachiel

By the way, I was thinking about political plots and I think every political plot can be summarised as a series of "I identify what opponent behavior benefits me, then I drive him to take that behavior with misdirection".

Delioth

Except your opponent is also trying to do the same thing

GcL

or are they?! ... classic misdirection

Delioth

If the opponent misdirects you into thinking you should be convincing them to take X action (which they already want to do, because it'll benefit them) instead of taking Y action (which would actually be in your favor), then they've actually won even though you thought you won

CTWind

My main dislike of critical failure is just that, in my experience, it always feels worse on the players' side of things. They're usually overall making far more rolls than the enemies (so they're more likely to hit that crit fail), and no one cares if a monster randomly crit fails and loses a turn or whatever- the DM still has plenty to do- but a setback that effectively leaves you out of the running for a round or two as a player feels bad. Even moreso if the consequences are fatal.

3

GcL

7:57 PM

@Delioth But then they could have thought that you thought that you won, but that's what you wanted them to think. At what point in time do we have to hire Leonardo DiCapprio and Ellen Page to go plant an idea in their head?

Delioth

@GcL I think that's Phase 2, Step 17, Task 4, Subtask 3, 17 minutes into Plan C after Plans A and B for P02S17T04S003 failed after 10 and 6.5 minutes respectively

CTWind

At some point the two sides just realized they actually want the same thing and aren't opponents at all, there's just been a difference in phrasing of their goals.

GcL

@CTWind The real enemy was the language they'd been using all along.

Xirema

Stats for Roll [DC11^]
  0: 100 ( 25.0000%) Odds to Pass: 100.0000%
 +1: 281 ( 70.2500%) Odds to Pass:  75.0000%
+1*:  19 (  4.7500%) Odds to Pass:   4.7500%
====
Stats for Roll [DC11v]
0*:  19 (  4.7500%) Odds to Pass: 100.0000%
 0: 281 ( 70.2500%) Odds to Pass:  95.2500%
+1: 100 ( 25.0000%) Odds to Pass:  25.0000%
====

Delioth

It's also important to note that the summary of political plots here must assume pure Game Theory, where there aren't any morals and both sides' desires are completely at odds. If you start adding empathy, places either or both sides won't go, compromise, etc... the waters get muddy

@Xirema Ooh, what's this?

Xirema

8:03 PM

So these are the stats for the variant: "With Advantage, if you roll a natural 20 and the other die passes the check, it's a critical success". Symmetrical for Disadvantage.

This is for a DC of 11, with no modifiers to the roll.

GcL

Does a 20 still auto-hit?

Xirema

@GcL We're not talking about Attack Rolls yet. Just generic D20 checks.

GcL

during an attack?

Xirema

Stats for Roll [DC16^]
  0: 225 ( 56.2500%) Odds to Pass: 100.0000%
 +1: 166 ( 41.5000%) Odds to Pass:  43.7500%
+1*:   9 (  2.2500%) Odds to Pass:   2.2500%
====
Stats for Roll [DC16v]
0*:  29 (  7.2500%) Odds to Pass: 100.0000%
 0: 346 ( 86.5000%) Odds to Pass:  92.7500%
+1:  25 (  6.2500%) Odds to Pass:   6.2500%
====

DC16.

GcL

What's the chance for a crit fail on a DC11 check?

for +3

Xirema

8:06 PM

@GcL Well, they'd have to be rolling with Disadvantage, and DC11 with a +3 to the check is equivalent to DC8 with +0, so...

Stats for Roll [DC8v]
0*:  13 (  3.2500%) Odds to Pass: 100.0000%
 0: 218 ( 54.5000%) Odds to Pass:  96.7500%
+1: 169 ( 42.2500%) Odds to Pass:  42.2500%
====

About 3.25%.

GcL

I can't read your tables.

I don't even see 3.25% on that table.

I can read them. They're not immediately comprehensible.

Delioth

So 0* and +1* are the "Crit if 1 nat 20 AND second roll succeeds" lines?

Xirema

@GcL Well, they're spat out of my program, and I'm not going through the effort of reformatting them.

0* is Critical Failure, +1* is Critical Success.

0 is regular failure, +1 is regular success.

GcL

That is not immediately apparent to me.

Is this on github somewhere?

Delioth

This is a terrible convention

Xirema

8:10 PM

@Delioth Then I suppose it's a good thing no one is paying me to do this. ;)

Delioth

(notably it would be a sensible compromise for 0 to be failure and 1 to be success, I think the + confused)

GcL

Anyway. a 3% chance of critical failure on an easy task for a proficient character.

Xirema

(I've rewritten all this code in C++, and one of the things I did was try to make the format of the output a bit more readable)

@GcL ←When they have Disadvantage. 0% on a normal check.

GcL

I don't know about you all, but I haven't accidentally rm'd the contents of the directory in years. Way less than 3%.

Delioth

But only when you have disadvantage

GcL

8:11 PM

Okay.

How often is that?

Xirema

Which was the original premise posed by the question I posted.

Delioth

How many times have you tried to do something near to rm -rf while drunk

rather, sudo rm -rf

with no sudo password

Someone_Evil

@GcL Figuring that out might be key, and really difficult

Delioth

Either way, I think 3% for a simple task for crits would be about right for my tastes

Xirema

A 5% of critical failure is way too high for a normal check, but on a check that's already being made with Disadvantage, I honestly think that's tolerable.

Delioth

8:14 PM

Plus there's the bonus that it automagically adjusts as the difficulty of the task changes too

GcL

@Delioth I rm -rf occasionally. Even after drinking. Usually, you ls the path first, and then go back to your command history and replace ls with rm. Chances of failure go way down like that, but that's probably the difference between a proficient person and someone who is just keen enough to be dangerous.

Delioth

Hard task that you're not skilled in with disadvantage = high chance of crit fail

Xirema

@Delioth That too. It gets higher the more difficult the check is, lower the easier the check is.

GcL

@Xirema Skills don't autofail on 1

Xirema

@GcL I'm beginning to feel like you only skimmed my original post...

Delioth

8:15 PM

@GcL No-one suggested they do?

GcL

I have a hard time telling when you're talking about your modified system or the standard one.

Delioth

The whole discussion here is in the context of the proposed modified system, which is a proposal designed to avoid the pitfalls of the common houserule of 1/20 crit fail/succeed

GcL

@Xirema I didn't even do that and you can't prove it. /S

Yuuki

The real rm -rf was all the friendships we abandoned along the way.

Delioth

@Xirema Also I'd like to just pick this up here: why C++ (not in a condescending way, actually curious)

Someone_Evil

8:18 PM

@GcL There are three: the standard one (attacks only), the common house rule one (all d20 rolls) and Xirema's suggestion (there might be two of those though)

Delioth

Yeah, there's two Xirema's suggestions

GcL

@Delioth That comes up every time he mentions it.

Delioth

There's the original and the one I proposed on top

@GcL I've been away a while and don't think I ever caught one of them

Xirema

@Someone_Evil There's 4 systems: Standard, Common House Rule, my Proposal (2 Nat 1s on Disadvantage, 2 Nat 20s on Advantage), and Delioth's proposed modification (Nat 1 + failure on Disadvantage, Nat 20 + success on Advantage)

We're currently evaluating the last one.

GcL

What's common house rule? and does my house have it?

Someone_Evil

8:20 PM

@Xirema Sorry, conflicted ownership on the last one

Xirema

@GcL "All Nat 1s are Critical Failures, All Nat 20s are Critical Successes". i.e the rule most of us don't really like for varying reasons.

GcL

I don't think my house has that. Sounds like something you'd need to call an exterminator for.

Delioth

To be fair, My proposed modification is a modification upon Xirema's proposal, so it's not technically incorrect to call it Xirema's

GcL

How common is that style of play do you think?

Someone_Evil

@GcL I'm strong enough in greek to work out the proper term for 'Rule of Housewife', but I think that's it

Delioth

8:21 PM

nat 20/1 auto crits?

That's pretty common

Someone_Evil

@GcL Common enough that a lot of people take it for granted

Xirema

@Delioth The TL;DR is that C++ is the only programming language I actually "like", as opposed to every other language which I merely tolerate.

Which is weird because C++ is the last language I learned, but... \shrug

Delioth

@Xirema That's fair.

GcL

No accounting for taste

Delioth

I mean, I don't like it much, but a lot of people also don't like Elixir

GcL

8:23 PM

A lot of people don't like <language>

Yuuki

@GcL Why, tax evasion?

GcL

and string interpolation

Xirema

I went from "write everything in Java" to "write everything in C++" about 4 years ago, and I feel like I write way less boilerplate code in C++ than I do in Java. Especially this project: I was able to cut the codebase in like half just by moving to C++.

GcL

@Yuuki I blame off shore preferences and foreign flavor accounts.

Sir Cinnamon

I write almost all my personal stuff in python, most my work stuff in nodejs

Yuuki

8:25 PM

@Xirema Just write everything in psuedocode.

Delioth

I tend to default back to Python for little things because it lets me use super-dumb OO easily

Sir Cinnamon

@Yuuki Yeah exactly, python, I just said that

Yuuki

See, @SirCinnamon's got it right.

Delioth

But if I want to have fun I'm doing it in elixir because it's cool

GcL

Bunch of snake charmers. Wasn't there a 2nd edition spell to turn sticks into ~~snakes~~ code ?

@Delioth On the supreme ones are worth sac'ing an action for in combat. If you're short resting, regular are just fine.

Delioth

8:27 PM

Also for Python, because you can wonder "does <type>.<function_i_want>(<maybe>,<this>,<works>) work? and the answer is yes

Xirema

I write a lot of logic using Maps, especially for this project, and every time I have to write probabilityMap.put(outcome, probabilityMap.get(outcome).add(trials));, when in C++, I could write instead probabilityMap[outcome] += trials;, I want to shoot myself.

Delioth

You don't even need an IDE, just guess at what methods you want and you'll be right 9/10 times

Xirema

Like, give me Java, but with overloadable operators, and I might even like it.

Delioth

Just use Python then, it'll let you overload operators I think, and maps (Dictionaries in Python) are possibly the most used structure

Xirema

But that's too scary for Java programmers. Just like how they call pointers "references" and leave everything to the garbage collectors.

Delioth

8:29 PM

I love leaving everything to the garbage collector

V2Blast

I just don't program

:P

Delioth

Alt: use Elixir and never manage memory because declaring a variable isn't a thing

Xirema

And then suddenly you have a thousand memory leaks in your Java code because your concept of Object Ownership is bad, and you actually believed it when people told you "BuT jAvA dOeSn'T hAvE mEmOrY lEaKs!!1!1!one!".

Delioth

Stupid practices will lead to stupid problems, regardless of language

Xirema

Of course, C++ has the problem that professors are terrible at teaching it.

CTWind

8:30 PM

My main 2 languages have somehow become C# and go.

Xirema

If you teach your students to make strings with new char[], you should be fired on the spot, and have all your pay for the last 10 years given to your students as tuition credit.

Delioth

I'm lucky, our core program was Python, and my C++ prof was actually crazy good. And we only used C for kernel programming

Xirema

I will die on this ▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒▒ing hill if I have to.

Delioth

Pretty sure I didn't turn in a functioning final in C++ though

I think it consistently SEGFAULT'd

Stackstuck

Okay but have you considered C$

Xirema

8:32 PM

If you teach your students to put using namespace std; in their code, I will feed you to a bear.

Stackstuck

*C#

Delioth

OK we did that though

Xirema

What's the name of your professor?

And his (it's always a guy) address?

V2Blast

is there a C♭ programming language

Xirema

I will feed him to a bear.

Delioth

8:34 PM

Don't know, he left the college after my next semester for undisclosed reasons

Don't remember his name either because I'm the worst at names

Xirema

Ah. Then I'm assuming someone else fed him to a bear.

All is right with the world.

Delioth

Aside: What's the issue with namespace std? Because I 100% don't want to have to prefix things with std::<thing>

Stackstuck

So how do you do a string in C++?

Delioth

std::string

Xirema

@Stackstuck std::string str = "Hello World";. Simple, streamlined, works out-of-the-box, has been valid code for nearly two decades.

Stackstuck

8:36 PM

mm.

Xirema

@Delioth Well, there's issues with ADL screwing everything up, but I don't find those arguments to be very persuasive to most people.

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: Do these rules for Critical Successes and Critical Failures seem Fair?

I'm thinking about implementing the following houserules at my table to try to bring back the concept of "Critical Successes" by piggybacking off the Advantage/Disadvantage system. Critical Success Whenever a creature makes a d20 roll with advantage, if both dice in the advantage roll re...

dnd-5e house-rules

Xirema

For me, the reason not to use using namespace std; is because it makes reading the code easier. It's far easier to tell the difference between a type name and a variable if all the type names are prefixed with namespace identifiers. If you really need to cut down on the namespace boilerplate, at least write something like using std::cout or whatever.

Although in my code, I am usually just importing types into other namespaces.

namespace probability {
    using cpp_int = boost::multiprecision::cpp_int;
    using cpp_rational = boost::multiprecision::cpp_rational;
}

That way, I'm not polluting the global namespace, just my local namespace.

KorvinStarmast

Namespace will become the skywriting/Myspace app of the 22d century ... just wait and see

Delioth

Ah, it's due to issues I've never had to come across because I've only used languages with strong local stuff which make it deliberately difficult to pollute global unintentionally - that makes a ton more sense once I remember that there's such a thing as a global namespace

Xirema

8:44 PM

(Also, NGL: I write a lot of code that looks like std::string string = field.string;)

Makes perfect sense if you prefix all your types with namespace identifiers, but if those go away....

Delioth

Also, not an issue for the languages I'm a fan of where you don't often pass around types, we use PascalCase for type names otherwise, and you should be ashamed of that line of code.

Shame on your naming conventions

Xirema

I use snake_case for utility classes and PascelCase for application classes.

Like, I'll have a class like util::matrix<int> but then I'll also have a class like MandelbrotRenderer.

Zachiel

I need to find a way to declare variables that only esist inside of a loop in Excel VBA.

But the ultimate answer is "who cares how long this task takes to run?"

Delioth

declare variables that only exist inside of a loop? Sounds like a function-scoped variable and just call the function in the loop

Alt: Don't loop, map>filter>reduce

BESW

Who wants FREE games in gorgeous zine format? I thought so. Get on it! https://twitter.com/gauntletrpg/status/1116023037080555520

Tweeted by jakehouseholder on April 10, 2019 at 7:45 PM

Micro game time! Requiem Recall a character you played in a game that fizzled, fell apart, or otherwise ended early. You will end their unfinished story now. Find some paper and a nice pen. Sit somewhere comfortable. Write a letter to their child, parent, friend, or lover. 1/3

Tweeted by pauly3_d on April 10, 2019 at 4:45 PM

Xirema

8:51 PM

I have

S̵̞̞͙̲̜͕̘̻̿̒̈̒ţ̷̮̞̜͍͖̣̈́̇r̷̡͚̲̒̈́̀͊̕o̷̧̢̻̲͔̤̯͓͒̈́́̓̓͝ņ̷̧̫̰̜͖̬̗̏̅͘͘͠g̵͕̟̮̐͝ ̷̧̧̪̥̮͍̎̀͒̃̉͠O̸̧͉̣̜̥̭̟̭̎̏̿͂p̶̧̛͙̥̲̈̄̄͆̆͘ï̴̧͇̠ͅn̷̺͍̈́̍̃̌̂͜i̴̧̛̠̪͚̖̮̤̰̱̿͛͐͌̓͗͠͝͝o̵̩̙̞͕̮̔̂̿͒́́̐̕̕͝ṋ̵̡̢̬̤͈͒ͅs̷̛̫̩̍͊̈́̈́̓͛͊͘̚͝

about programming languages.

user15026

@Xirema This looks so odd in the side chat switcher thing :P

Zachiel

@Delioth Maybe I should move the loop to its own sub-routine.

BESW

Kickstarter: Sundown. A rules-light tabletop roleplaying game set in a pre-industrial transhumanist frontier. Think Cyberpunk goes Wild West.

Sundown looks pretty cool except for the part where it looks like the Natives are all either long dead or monsters.

V2Blast

an image from that page:

ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/024/698/932/…

surely someone noticed the typo

BESW

It's dyslexia-friendly, rules-light with a strong narrative push, looks like it might be doing something interesting and real with transhumanism for once.

(I'm not too worried about the Native thing because it's got Jahaji and Tsalagi creators working on it.)

user15026

9:09 PM

It looks super interesting

BESW

@Ash I thought you might like it! It does look a bit grim though.

Sir Cinnamon

@V2Blast Maybe their name actually is Vengeanace

BESW

You're an "outcast taking work wherever you can from folk that hate you," and have to "fight for the right to mold your body as you choose," but "if you fail, you take Stress" which "is hard to get rid of, too. Healing items have severe overdose penalties, and you can only heal naturally with your precious downtime."

That may be a little Too Real for some peoples' escapist fantasies.

But I'm very glad it has a chance to exist!

user15026

@BESW It does but also fun.

BESW

Oh wow I'm four pages into the sample text and really appreciate it.

user15026

9:24 PM

@BESW I like all these words

BESW

It starts with "what to expect" which sets theme and tone with phrases like "Sundown is a land of monsters, many of them human" and "You don't save the world."

And then it gives two pages to the importance of consent, a simple consent interface, encouragement to look for more tools, and a note that the full rules will include a table-level mechanic for managing consent.

user15026

THEY HAVE EXPLICITLY MENTIONED CONSENT TOOLS.

user15026

Sorry, I just...I just...yes.

user15026

Augh and the bits about "dont use the disability stuff as inspiration porn" oh gosh this is literally making me cry

BESW

They leave out the "give control of resolution to the person in distress" technique in their simple consent interface, but they specifically conclude with "You can also add other consent tools you find helpful. Consent is practiced best when everyone is comfortable with the tools available."

[rummages under couch for loose change] I want this on my shelf.

@trogdor I think Sundown may be the compassionate dread system I've been looking for.

V2Blast

9:55 PM

Nice nice

Carcer

I have a strong temptation to flag SSD's leaving post as "unclear what you're asking"

:s/leaving/retiring/

RollingFeles

Ahoj, folks! Long time no see.

trogdor

@BESW oh

hmm

Shalvenay

hey there @RollingFeles, how're things going? :)

RollingFeles

10:10 PM

@Shalvenay great! Although a bit tough. I changed my job, moved to other city and if everything will go according to the plan, I'll move to Prague next year.

Shalvenay

@RollingFeles ah, how's the new job treating you?

RollingFeles

Ah, it's all good. I just forgot how to be a newbie in a new place :D But almost got used to it.

How're yours? :)

trogdor

@BESW oh god Ravens, the worst monsters

oh crows my bad

sorry not sorry

BESW

@RollingFeles [wave] Welcome back!

BESW

10:31 PM

@goodguy5 The Sundown team has a Discord server for their publishing company.

trogdor

ok it looks interesting so far but I haven't read all of it

I still gotta go to work

BESW

11:04 PM

I asked the Sundown devs on Discourse, and they're shocked that the KS and sample don't mention any of the Indigenous rep they've put in, and they're going to re-cut the sample PDF to include it, and may re-arrange the book itself to put more focus on them.

MikeQ

[golf clap]

BESW

It's not great that they didn't notice their publicity material was missing the content, but the content exists, was created in collaboration with a Tsalagi author, and is a significant part of the colonialism theme.

Hot RPG Questions

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Q: Can a rogue use sneak attack with weapons that have the thrown property even if they are not thrown?

For weapons like the spear that have the Thrown property, can a Rogue use sneak attack with them? Thrown is considered a ranged attack and Sneak Attack specifies that "The attack must use a finesse or ranged weapon." Does this mean a rogue could potentially apply Sneak Attack to an attack using a...

dnd-5e combat

BESW

11:32 PM

"What are things you see good players do?" A thread on the Gauntlet Forums.

Transcript for