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12:56 AM
@NautArch oof.
@KorvinStarmast Are they related to Urkel?
 
1:08 AM
I downloaded and started Baldurs gate I and II... I had forgotten how clunky the interface was (Which as pretty good for the time, but compared to modern zomg it's bad)
 
@JohnP eheheh. is NWN player in 2019, knows that feeling all too well
 
hahaha! I bet! How you been?
 
@JohnP alright here save for being slightly under the weather
 
Everyone but the astronauts are under the weather, technically. And i suppose there is weather of a sort in space too. :p
I'm on yet another 5-midnight meeting. 4th this week, be glad when the failover testing is done and I can go back to a normal shedule.
 
1:24 AM
@JohnP Yikes, John, that stinks
@V2Blast yeah, and to Angela Merkel, but she won't acknowledge them! (tee hee)
 
Well, the alternative for the first 3 days for the PI planning was a flight to INdia for a 3 day session, so I'm ok with those. This one is we are testing the failover between data centers. On this call I am a dunsel.
 
hey there btw @KorvinStarmast
 
1:37 AM
hullo, new hearthstone deck, experimenting. woot
 
@KorvinStarmast a bit under the weather, sadly, but otherwise alright
 
1:55 AM
@Shalvenay Except the NWN interface is amazing, and a lot of modern games should learn from it. (Especially NWN2, not that it would count as a modern game anymore.)
 
@Miniman eh, some things are OK (like radial menus), some things aren't (like the inventory system!)
 
@KorvinStarmast what is a hearthstone deck? MtG variant?
 
@Shalvenay That's fair, I wasn't thinking about the inventory.
But seriously, if you think radial menus are only okay, you need to play more RPGs and see the kind of crap other games foist on you.
Of course, a lot of them are made to work on consoles, which is roughly equivalent to shooting yourself in the chest when it comes to UI design.
 
@Miniman that is very, very true
I think my experience with EVE spoiled me rotten with regards to inventory systems, though
 
2:52 AM
@JohnP Yeah... I tried Baldur's Gate 1 a little while back, but the remasters don't make the mechanics/interface any less jarring.
 
7
Q: Is "lasts until dispelled" a duration?

NautArchSome spells, like true polymorph, has language that says (emphasis mine) If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled. This seems to suggest that the duration is over and the spell simply lasts until dispelled. If you are looking at the rule...

 
Ben
Ok, quick question for anyone with knowledge of the 40k universe - does a "Psychic Surge" = "Warp Touched"?
 
All I know is, Heresy
XD
But that's not helpful
That's not really true, I do know some other things but I definitely have no grasp of how any warp stuff actually works
I'm far from an expert
 
Ben
3:11 AM
Oh, you've got the right mindset at least.
That's pretty much how it is. "Boss I found another warp-touched!"
"What are you telling me for? Burn it and be done with it!"
"Boss, I found a Heretic"
"OMG DEPLOY ALL UNITS WE MUST REMOVE THEIR EXISTENCE FROM EVERYTHING!"
 
They are more scared of heretics than warp touched?
I always figured the warp was the scariest thing in a universe of scary things
 
Ben
It is a bit... warped.
 
3:29 AM
Lol
 
@Ben Do you mean, like, is anything in the vicinity of a psychic phenomena or perils of the warp event automatically warp touched?
 
Ben
@Miniman Perils of the Warp
 
Because by my understanding, warp touched is a lot more fundamental than that - closer to "grew up on a daemon world" level than "had warp stuff happen nearby one time" level.
 
Ben
Yeah
The reason I ask is because of this answer
He's basically saying "Oh, the psyker died for a psychic surge, which triggered the Warp Perils, so now he's warp touched!"
 
The problem is, of course, that a) neither of those answers cite sources at all, and b) wh40k has an enormous volume of wildly inconsistent material that can support most points of view
 
3:39 AM
Yeah I was about to mention
In my admittedly very limited understanding, the property of WH40K has gotten so big and at times contradictory that I assume you could find basis for pretty much anything you want
 
But anyway, my read of your question is that it's not really about "warp touched" as such, more like "how much is this thing going to glow to someone with psyniscience".
To which my answer would be "probably not none, probably not a lot either".
 
Ben
@Miniman Yeah. In all honesty that's kinda what I was thinking.
 
With a side of "the psyniscience rules need about 100x more detail to be able to answer this question".
 
Ben
I basically want it to be a situation of that one guy, in a random situation be like "Uhh... Your Servo Skull has a psychic signature?"
Like, just barely blipping on the scale, doesn't need to be much
 
4:04 AM
@JohnP hearthstone is a game by blizzard that is a collectible card game, a bit like "MtG light" ... but there are some serious tournaments. On line only.
 
4:42 AM
12
Q: Would a level 18+ Champion Fighter recover HP outside of combat?

Allan MillsAt level 18 a fighter with the champion archetype gains the survivor ability which lets them recover HP at the start of each turn provided they have more than 0 HP: Survivor At 18th level, you attain the pinnacle of resilience in battle. At the start of each of your turns, you regain H...

 
 
7 hours later…
11:37 AM
ahoy hoy
 
Anything special which brings you over to our little corner?
 
I added a tag to a question
was wondering if it was a good idea
24
Q: Simulating these special dice on more regular dice

ErikSo I've got a game that uses special dice for its resolution. Basically when making an opposed check, each side rolls a bunch of them based on the relevant trait, and whoever rolls most points wins. The margin by which you win matters for resolution, usually. But I'd like to simulate the resolut...

 
I don't think so. The question is about simulating the dice. The reason is to let new players play, who happen to be kids. That doesn't make the question about kids, nor is that question relevant to kids
 
11:46 AM
@Someone_Evil Seemed like it was relevant to the question and at least why one of the answers is doing well
 
@AncientSwordRage 1) AFAIK tags should describe the question, not the answers and 2) which answer are you thinking of?
 
12:04 PM
@Someone_Evil Reading just the question - the kids part seems not as relevant, but considering one of the better answers is around explaining to kids, it seemed more relevant
17
A: Simulating these special dice on more regular dice

CR DrostLook at the pips a certain way Tell your kids that the pips on the dice represent where you hit. A pip in the center means that you hit on-target, a pip on the sides means that you missed. As special rules if you miss 6 times then you get tired, so that can cancel out another hit, and if you o...

(thats an answer link)
theres not a 'teaching-how-to-play' tag or a 'explaining-rules' tag otherwise that might fit better
 
I still don't think the kids tag is relevant. The fact that it is played by their children only came up because as background info on the system. Rereading the question, I'm not sure they are asking for ways to emulate the dice for use by children. It's perfectly possible the system was designed for their children, and now they want to try it with their adult friends.
 
@Someone_Evil should we edit the 'played by my children' bit out of the question?
 
There's no reason to. It helps explain (by justification) part of the system which (might) be needed to answer the question, but it does not define the topic of the question
@AncientSwordRage FWIW we have and which cover a lot of that.
Neither of those are applicable to this question
 
12:23 PM
@Someone_Evil I agree
it just seemed like part of the question was 'how do I make the replacement dice make sense to someone?'
because the dice they want to replace have six values ([-1, 0, 0, 1, 1, 2]), so can map to a d6 almost trivially
 
I think it is more: what is a good replacement dice for this? (easier makes for a better answer)
 
@Someone_Evil is it not trivially a d6?
 
@AncientSwordRage Yes ( I meant that for what the question was)
 
@Someone_Evil Yes
 
They have received the 'map to a d6' in several variants. Meaning it's not quite so trivial (different mappings have different advantages)
 
12:29 PM
@Someone_Evil but they're asking for dice, not how to map a dice. I guess it comes down to semantics
 
@AncientSwordRage Mapping a cubic (non-d6) die to a d6 is one way of emulating that special die.
 
@Someone_Evil ok, but then what makes a good mapping? One that's easy to understand
I guess I felt that 'understandable by kids' was a good metric for that
 
If the querent is specifically looking for something that works better with children, they need to add that to their question, and a lot of answers needs to add more support. What works well with children is subjective
@AncientSwordRage What is easy to understand will vary with who you are/how you think.
There's arguably also speed of use. Something can be easy to understand, but slow in practice.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:59 PM
@AncientSwordRage If you can teach something to kids, you can usually teach it to adults.
@AncientSwordRage Or there may be a bit of x-y problem in the question
 
@KorvinStarmast Agreed..I couldn't find/think of a teaching type tag
 
2:21 PM
@KorvinStarmast We lived!
 
@NautArch Heh, your Party is now the Scourge of Bugbears, yes?
 
@KorvinStarmast Definitely. Our half-orc champion knocked one of the bugbears out and kept him tied up as we escorted the refugees to the port city for evacuation. Kind of awkward, but none of us wanted to challenge him about it.
We get to the port and there were two cyclops waiting for us. The half-orc ended up pushing the tied up bugbear out in front to distract the cyclops. Cyclops attacked it and then we flanked the cyclops and beat it down.
 
Sometimes, a captive is useful. Sometimes, it's just a case of more overhead.
 
Didn't get to use too many manuevers, though.
Used riposte a couple of times. Never got my Commander's Strike in.
 
See that you had two giants, one pair of eyes. :)
 
2:29 PM
hehehe
 
Commanders Strike is one of those situational deals
 
There were lots of questions about "do we see any sheep?" and "if they ask us our names, tell them it's Nobody!"
@KorvinStarmast Yeah, I had also picked up sweeping attack, but never used it. I'm going to ask my DM if I can swap it out for Maneuvering. Our use of flanking makes that really viable to get advantage.
 
@NautArch You all are using DM option flanking rules?
 
(read this first as DM flaking rules and was very confused for a moment)
 
@KorvinStarmast yeah
Although reading the description, i do need to attack first. meh.
i guess i'd dstill get 2 other attacks with advantage after
but maybe i'll just keep the sweep. It seems fun when the situation does come up.
 
2:56 PM
hello
 
\o
 
hi
 
But the battlemaster itself was a lot of fun. Sooo much easier than managing a wizard :P
 
how is everyone
 
2:59 PM
And the improvised weapon shield smash allowance has really made a it fun.
 
@NautArch How many shield smashes do you get as your allowance?
 
@Someone_Evil I have to earn them with regular attacks :P
 
still fluish
 
3:19 PM
Is asking for optimized damage builds for multiple levels too broad? It seems like it is (to me), but maybe i'm being too strict?
 
GcL
@NautArch As opposed to asking 15 separate questions? Maybe ask for a table? E.g. level, feat/class/asi selection, average damage output.
Probably should explicitly list the conditions for eval. E.g. assume combat lasts 8 rounds, there are one per short rest, and three short rests per long rest.
 
@GcL yeah, i dunno. I think i updated the question in a meaningful way. Build it for 20, but show the progression.
Rather than, what's most optimal at any given level. If you don't have to manage progression, it may be different.
 
GcL
Dunno. The more precise the constraints, the easier it is to evaluate an answer.
 
@GcL oh definitely. These questions are hard because it's difficult to come up with all of the constraints. SOmetimes you don't know you needed one until answers come in.
 
3:35 PM
Would a meta post with typical constraints/considerations for CharOp questions be useful? Not as authoritative, but as a help in catching these before they go through comments (and possibly closure).
 
Thats actually a really good idea - although i'm not sure how we'd end up 'consolidating' the final list.
 
GcL
@Someone_Evil I have an aversion to directing querents to meta. However, a copy/pasta block for a standard set of constraints might be useful.
"optimization question closed as too broad? Try copy-pasting this constraints block to narrow your question."
Maybe not click-baity enough. "Mods hate this one character optimization question trick. Click here to find out more."
 
and as we chat, another optimization comes in.
 
Yeah, I was just looking at that question.
It's so broad and has almost no context-
 
@GcL I'm starting to think maybe the meta is about whether or not these are on-topic. WIth so many potential limitations/requirements and the lack of clarity about what they might be...are we really the right place for this?
 
GcL
3:45 PM
@NautArch Aren't there already metas about if that's on topic or not? I'd argue they're not off topic questions, but seem to frequently have too little information or constraint to be useful.
I think @Someone_Evil's RPG.SE standard constraint wall of text might be useful.
 
20
Q: Are character build or optimization questions on topic?

mxyzplk says reinstate MonicaWe attract some character build/optimization questions that are very vague - like this newer ones. How can I add more attack to my Wood Bond Oracle? A class like the "Action Survivor" trope Pathfinder: Arcane Duelist melee build We've discussed this before in Should we allow "Best Character ...

 
GcL
Plus, people do like the "How fast can a monk monk monk if a monk could monk monk?"
 
Mxy's answer is downvoted somewhat heavily, but I'm currently in agreement with it. I get the downvotes (we want this type of question, they're fun), but the reasoning for not having them is pretty solid.
 
GcL
@NautArch The reason for not having this entire stack is pretty solid, but I like this stack.
 
@GcL hehe.
The upvoted answer does seem to get to the heart. You either need them to be very general or very specific. But very specific is very hard to specify.
ANd very general isn't often actually useful.
 
GcL
3:50 PM
I think the a decent response to the vague optimization questions is probably, "What do you want the character to do and how do you want them to do it?"
 
But that's the "how fast can a monk monk monk if a monk could monk monk"
 
GcL
People love the max speed/hp/damage/mcguffins stuff. They're useful in some ways.
 
@GcL OH definitely, and those are very general. I think those work because of what they are.
 
GcL
Generally might be useful too. "I want my wizard to do a lot of damage with fire" seems like a sufficient constraint.
Probably a dozen ways to chase that asbestos cat. Damage with fire... fine. Trite, but can be satisfied.
 
Another concern is the amount of time we'll have to spend with a querent in defining their question. It seems significantly more than any other type of question. That's not a reason to not do it, but it's a consideration.
 
GcL
3:53 PM
@NautArch A nice and convenient path to get good questions. I think you need some knights, a circular table, and a blind faith that such a thing exists and is worth chasing.
 
I guess @JohnP didn't feel like the additional questions in the comments were necessary :P
 
GcL
It would be nice to have, and I know when it gets found not to drink from the fancy cup. Saw that on one of those Indiana Jones documentaries.
 
@NautArch The comment thread is long and full of terrors
 
GcL
I'm thinking a couple dozen necklaces of fireball. It's really pretty optimized for every class.
 
@GcL copypasta answer?
 
3:56 PM
FWIW, I think it's now answerable without the clarifications
 
GcL
Step 1: Use your class features to adventure and find wealth or necklaces of fireball. 2) Buy necklaces of fireball 3) Apply fireball liberally to surface of enemies.
* itching and burning may occur. This is normal
 
@Someone_Evil not disagreeing. I thought so, too. But the additional questions would be helpful.
 
GcL
You can use magic weapons as your pact weapon, correct?
 
@GcL Yes
> You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon.
 
@NautArch I think he wrote both answers, but the one with higher votes turned into a community wiki.
 
4:08 PM
@KorvinStarmast The CW answer is credited to wax eagle
 
oops, no Waxy wrote it.
Yeah, I just checked edit history.
 
@NautArch wait, what?
 
@Someone_Evil Oh, that. I blame lack of coffee.
 
ohman. So for that warforged question, they're using the original eberron content. But is that even 'findable' now? Didn't they update the Wayfinder's entry with the final from the new book?
 
4:20 PM
@NautArch Isn't the original version of the warforged identical to the UA one?
 
@Someone_Evil Is it? I don't know (and can we even check now?)
 
@NautArch archive.org?
 
@JohnP ooh, that's interesting
didn't think about that.
 
There is a lot of interesting stuff available there.
 
@JohnP Doesn't seem accessible.
 
4:31 PM
archive? Or the link?
@NautArch - The UA PDF I found is dated 7.23.2018, are you looking for one earlier than that?
 
@JohnP I"m looking for the earlier wayfinder's version. Unless you know that the last UA was the original Wayfinder's.
 
That article mentions Wayfinder's "for more information about that world", so it really should have mentioned if it was an updated version from the one used there
 
I don't, I was a little confused on what you were looking for. I guess I really meed coffee. 4 x 5-12a shifts in the last week, I'm not firing on all cylinders
 
@JohnP heh. The problem is currently that WoTC updated the Wayfinder's content. If someone was using the original content, I don't know how ot reference it.
Which I guess is less of a concern since the question just got deleted. But it's a weird issue now...
 
GcL
What's the attunement limit?
 
4:44 PM
@GcL 3, unless you're an Artificer
 
GcL
Thanks
 
@NautArch The only way I can think of is the various pirated PDF sites that have an early version.
 
@JohnP someone made a PDF of Wayfinder's? I can't imagine that was easy.
was it downloadable as a PDF? or was it always just the digital home?
 
Judging by how much they've commented on the DMGuild page for Wayfinder's, I'd guess @V2Blast might know something about this
 
ah, then it's definitely out there :P
 
4:49 PM
Actually, Wayfinder's and UA: Races of Eberron was published on the same day (23 of July), so I think it's fair to assume they contain(ed) the same version
 
@Someone_Evil I think you're probably right, but with wizards it's got to be Trust But Verify.
 
5:18 PM
@Someone_Evil If it exists, it will be treated as authoritative. This is a good reason not to write certain guidelines.
 
5:37 PM
@MarkWells I generally agree, but I do think the guidelines we have for homebrew are helpful.
 
5:56 PM
I mean, I'm the wrong one to talk about charop questions (for several reasons), but the reason to write a properly constrained question is so that we know the shape of your actual problem space. A set of "suggested constraints" amounts to a shortcut around understanding the problem.
 
I didn't (intend to) suggest a set of suggested constraints. I wanted a set of things which typically need to be considered (and bounded one way or the other). Information that such questions very often need and so get asked in the comments if not provided. Muticlassing? Feats? Magic items? Specific level?
 
Is "why do you want to do this?" a reasonable question?
 
Right, clear intent and goals comes way before all of the details
 
So, it was in fact a beholder but with a twist
It's invisible
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami hmm. that seems problematic. If the AMF blocks their own eye-rays (which originate from them), then it seems like it should also block the invisibility.
Or was this not a spell, it just was?
 
6:06 PM
@NautArch not a spell. it just was
 
It's invisible. Also, it's 50 feet in the air. Also, arrows and other metal things are attracted by a magnetic ball in the center of the room, giving arrows disadvantage. ALSO, the floor is slick and requires a DEX save at the beginning of each turn not to fall prone.
 
ALSO, the DM seems like they're just straight up out to kill you.
 
DEX saves for everyone except our bard who has a +10 to DEX saves vs a DC 10 floor and my warlock who can just fly
 
or is that just straight up ToA?
 
just straight up ToA
Pretty sure ToA is where PCs go to die
 
6:09 PM
@Akira_Kurusu That is kind of an absurd setup. Is there a reason y'all don't just leave the room and make the beholder fight you somewhere less awful?
 
ah
" Acererak cast a wish spell to render Belchorzh invisible. A successful dispel magic (DC 19) cast on the beholder or contact with an antimagic field ends its invisibility"
 
who's to say it'd follow us for one, also everywhere else is small and cramped
 
Did you have to fight it at all?
 
If it won't follow you, problem solved?
 
wow, reading that part of the adventure.
it's crazy
 
6:12 PM
100% of my life is spent not fighting invisible beholders in ice rinks with giant magnets and I don't feel like I'm missing anything.
3
 
@MarkWells don't forget about the slipper floor!
 
@NautArch I believe ice rinks typically have slippery floors
 
@NautArch I didn't.
That just sounds like a room not to fight in.
 
@MarkWells "Belchorzh doesn’t pursue intruders who flee its vault. However, if the adventurers steal even one copper piece from its trove, the beholder uses the alien growth throughout this level of the dungeon against them. Whenever the characters come near a patch of the growth, it sprouts an eyestalk and attacks (see "Alien Growth")."
It actually seems like not fighting is a very viable option.
 
@NautArch But that sweet, sweet loot!
 
6:15 PM
step 1: as you explore the dungeon, destroy all "alien growth" with a flamethrower.
step 2: steal the loot and run.
step 3: laugh at Belchorzh as it tries to use the alien growth against you.
 
Yeah, the Tomb of Annihilation is by design a meatgrinder campaign. I don't know how it compares to the infamous "Tomb of Horrors" campaign, but there's lots of stuff very specifically designed to kill unwary PCs.
 
It looks like I may be running the Rick and Morty campaign next week (or at least starting it.)
 
@NautArch Oh my. Let us know how that goes.
 
@Xirema Yeah, i plan on trying to be fairly whacky with it.
 
@MarkWells genius
 
6:24 PM
@MarkWells step 4: Profit!
 
@NautArch Now I want to see someone try and run it as very stern and dramatic lol
 
@Rubiksmoose i'm also fairly certain playing it sober isn't allowed
 
Not really relevant to that, but I've decided that next time I need to mark an area as "very dangerous" it's going to have a spitted beholder roasting over a campfire
 
Oh that reminds me: the party I DM for adopted a Spectator out of Wave Echo Cave.
 
6:39 PM
@MarkWells Brilliant
 
They managed to avoid encountering it until after the dangerous magic inside the cave had been removed, so it was clear-headed and no longer "deranged" (as described in the adventure) when they found it. So a successful Charisma check later, they have a pet Spectator.
 
@MarkWells ♪ Eyeball roasting on an open fire ♪
2
 
@Someone_Evil "alien growths nipping at your nose"
 
6:57 PM
is World of Darkness really not a game that supports citing rules when answering questions?
looking at questions tagged with that and for mage the ascension. No one is supporting any answers :/
 
@Someone_Evil Yes, the 2018 UA Eberron content is generally identical to the initial version of WGTE. I think there might have been a few minor changes to WGTE right before the parts of it went through UA.
@NautArch Yes, DMsGuild has always had it as a PDF. D&D Beyond was the only other way to get WGTE, and D&D Beyond just doesn't do PDFs.
 
@V2Blast So at this point, the only way to try and answer questions based on the Before-The-New-Book content is to try and find a pdf of the previous version?
 
@NautArch Nice! I've only glanced at it but it's quite... interesting. :P
 
@V2Blast Yeah, it's definitely got our group's antics written all over it.
 
@NautArch Well, for the parts of it that went through UA, that's the easiest thing to check
Otherwise, yes
 
7:07 PM
@V2Blast But you've said minor changes might be there. Those minor changes may be the source of confusion on an answer, no?
 
@NautArch I don't think so. They were, like, on the level of one or two phrases/sentences being changed in the whole thing. And that was before it went through UA. I'm not positive on that though.
 
@V2Blast And it's that uncertainty which makes me uncomfortable assuming we can use the UA when folks are saying they're using the original Wayfinder's content.
 
@NautArch It's a pretty safe assumption, especially when they quote the content and it's identical to the UA :P
I'm just too lazy to compare the PDF I have to the UAs line by line unless it's needed
lol
 
@V2Blast okeydoke. I'll stay away from answering. Citing sources that may be incorrect isn't something I like to do.
But what's up with the mage-the-ascension and WoD questions. Are those inherently not answers that can be backed up with source citations?
 
In 5e, If you apply weight to a beholder (For example, a barbarian that weighs 200 pounds is enlarged by a wizard, and then grapples a beholder) would any amount of weight cause it to start to fall, or would it simply continue to hover with no problem?
Enlarge multiplies weight by 8, for 1600 pounds
 
7:21 PM
@Akira_Kurusu this would probably be an interesting mainsite question. But generally i think no weight makes it fall. Things don't 'move' in 5e unless something is moving them.
 
@NautArch Ah I see, from a game mechanics standpoint that sounds about right
 
@Akira_Kurusu yeah, it's one of the "5e is not simulationist" times
 
@NautArch What's its strength? There is a mechanical limit to how much weight it can carry
 
@MarkWells Well, is it 'carrying' the barbarian, or is the barbarian 'grappling' it? I think the rules are more about the latter.
But that's an interesting issue to resolve.
I mean, it already has a movement of 0 because of grappled, so it's not going anywhere. And it can be moved by the grappler, so that's already a thing to bring it down.
 
Constitution Ability Check. For the barbarian's weight.
 
7:35 PM
There's also the description for flight. "If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover."
And the beholder does hover-
So does hover cancel out the barbarian's weight?
 
@Akira_Kurusu I mean, it has to, because virtually all methods that give a creature a hover speed don't stipulate a maximum weight capacity.
 
By that logic, tarrasque could hop onto a beholder and it still wouldn't fall.
 
I think the narrative here is 1)Barbarian Embiggens, 2)Barbarian Grapples Beholder, 3)Barbarian pulls beholder down (not beholder crashes down because of weight.)
 
@Xirema No, but the general rules on strength do.
 
@Xirema Yeah, no weight-shaming beholders in 5e.
 
7:37 PM
Only exceptions are stuff like Tenser's Floating Disk, and technically that's not a hover speed, just a flying vehicle with a maximum weight limit.
 
Hmm, so I think the problem is that 5e doesn't address this possibility at all. Haha
 
@Akira_Kurusu Climbing onto another creature is also part of grappling and requires the creature to be larger than you.
8
Q: How large must a creature be for the "Climb Onto a Bigger Creature" action?

SawyerFrom the DMG: Climb Onto a Bigger Creature If one creature wants to jump onto another creature, it can do so by grappling. A Small or Medium creature has little chance of making a successful grapple against a Huge or Gargantuan creature, however, unless magic has granted the grap...

 
A beholder is strength 10, Large. That's a maximum lifting force of 600 lbs.
 
@NautArch I think one of the few mechanical changes between WGTE initial publication and the UA version was that originally, the Mark of Finding was listed for both half-orcs and humans. Then it was changed to be half-orc only in the UA version. Then the final published version made it available to both again. (Note that WGTE was updated to match the version that appeared in UA at the time the UA went out. It has since been published to match the version in E:RftLW.)
 
@MarkWells Yeah, but that relates to a Beholder's ability to lift an object over its head. We need a mechanism to translate that into its ability to hover.
 
7:39 PM
Seems they forgot to change some of the flavor text back here:
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Q: Can humans of House Tharashk develop the Mark of Finding?

Liam Morris - Reinstate MonicaAfter reading through Eberron: Rising from the Last War, I have noticed a conflicting statement regarding the Mark of Finding. On page 32, Half-Orcs and Dragonmarks, it states: The Mark of Finding appears among half-orcs of House Tharashk. Strangely, both orcs and humans associated with the h...

 
@MarkWells I think you mean 300. 15 * STR * 2
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami That's carrying capacity. Lifting capacity doubles it again.
 
@Xirema oh my bad
 
"Push, Drag, or Lift. You can push, drag, or lift a weight in pounds up to twice your carrying capacity (or 30 times your Strength score). "
 
now I look dumb
 
7:40 PM
5e doesn't pose a weight limit for hovers, only the stipulation that they don't fall when their speed is 0. RAW says that it stays put, but it's probably going to be up to the dm to determine what happens when the barbarian says screw it and hops on.
 
@Akira_Kurusu RAW doesn't say it stays up. RAW doesn't say anything.
 
@Himitsu_no_Yami Eh, they're easy rules to mix up.
 
@MarkWells "has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover."
Has its speed reduced to 0 includes a grapple
Grappling a flying creature, for example, causes it to fall.
 
@V2Blast Language like "I think" and "one of the few" is whre i'm not comfortable. You feel confident, but not actually sure. If that's good enough for you, awesome. It isn't for me.
 
@NautArch It's to indicate that I'm only 99.9999% certain :P
 
7:42 PM
Also, whether or not you can climb onto another creature is up to the DM.
 
@Akira_Kurusu In this case it's not falling because it's grappled, but because you've just put 1600 pounds on top of it.
 
It's an optional rule.
 
Anyway, do what you will with that info
 
Solution: Embiggen further
 
It's on PHB p. 191, under Flying Movement
 
7:44 PM
@MarkWells That still lacks a rules justification though. The only thing it might prove is that a Tarrasque falling onto a Beholder would squish the Beholder into a pancake.... in mid-air.
 
@V2Blast Wizards created this problem by making the text updates in the singular document. It makes it very difficult to know what's changed.
 
@MarkWells I don't think this is a very convincing argument. You can always make a situation more specific and then RAW doesn't say anything about it.
 
@MarkWells Right I agree, but theres no rule for that.
 
@Akira_Kurusu If and how it would work is entirely up to the DM.
 
@NautArch technically speaking, that's true with anything
 
7:45 PM
But using non-optional rules, it won't work that way.
 
@kviiri Isn't that how the game normally works?
 
@MarkWells I don't understand your question and its relevance to the discussion
 
@Akira_Kurusu (and that's what I'm telling you: the rules don't say it falls but they don't say it doesn't fall, either)
deep breath
 
@MarkWells Okay, so backing up a second: what is your principal claim? That the Beholder falls when a Tarrasque is dropped onto it, or else that there isn't a logical interpretation of the rules that says what happens?
Because to me, those seem like the two sides being debated here.
 
@Xirema The first one, I think.
 
7:49 PM
@Xirema Everyone's overlooking coleslaw here, imo.
grumbles two sides...
 
@Yuuki Coleslaw is a third party and therefore a spoiler, and I will not entertain its legitimacy.
 
@Xirema mayo or vinegar based?
 
I think most would agree that a Beholder falls when a Tarrasque is dropped onto it, but I think it's still meaningful to realize that that is not RAW
As long as we're in the realm of RAW, we can justify that yeah, this is how it's going to happen. But when we let go of RAW, we can't really say much about what will happen. Okay, the Beholder falls is probably something many if not most GMs would agree with, but then you'll have about n+1 interpretations (for n GMs) what actually happens to a Beholder that's falling because they can't support a tarrasque.
 
@kviiri I'd say exactly the opposite. By RAW you can't answer the question of what happens. There is no "hovering creature with larger creature on top of it" rule.
 
@kviiri This. I'm happy to compile rules that I implement in games I run that do not obey the rules-as-written and my perfectly logical justifications for why I use those rules despite their deviation from RAW [1], but I want to be able to meaningfully explain what would happen if I didn't use my rules.
 
7:54 PM
And there's another option: Tarrasque causes falling damage and that's it. I don't think most falling objects then pin creatures to the ground.
 
@MarkWells Neither is there a "goblin gets hit by a Damascus steel short sword strike made by a slightly hung-over half-Asian dwarven warlord exactly as the first beam of the rising sun catches its eye" rule, but I think everyone would agree it's a normal damage roll, RAW.
 
@kviiri Would a half-Asian dwarf be called a "teapot"?
 
If you want to argue that a generic rule does not cover its more specific cases, then no rule actually covers anything, and you don't have RAW anymore, which of course doesn't really matter much if you don't care about RAW in your games but it does matter if you want to use it as a definition RAW in discussions since it's a rather pointless definition.
 
Something I just noticed: the "x" button next to the tag list when editing a question is now red. It used to be gray, right?
 
No rule actually covers anything, on its own. The players apply the rules to things.
 
7:59 PM
@MarkWells I think you mean the DM applies the rules to things?
 
Is there a rule that can be applied to this situation? Well, yes, there's a rule about how much a creature can lift.
 
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