@DavidCoffron Do I have your permission to append your analysis to my answer? Full credit to you, of course, but I think's it's a nice piece of analysis. Or, we can have me ask a question that is properly scoped, and then you answer it. (Latter is probably the better idea).

@KorvinStarmast Up to you. You can feel free to use my analysis in your answer or ask a new question. I'm a bit frusterated with the OP at the moment since we worked so hard to help him and he is continuing to be unhelpful

The question should be something along the lines of: "Is there a common balance principle to damage output in 5th edition?"

You'd at least have to narrow the scope to what's being measured - progression per size, or progression per level (which was ambiguous in the original question)

Hey to all chilling here, I'd like to get your opinion on whether or not a question idea I've got is on-topic for RPG.SE

I've got a low-magic homebrew campaign setting where due to a failed coup attempt by a loose alliance of caster organizations, magic is illegal and punishable by imprisonment or execution

This includes even the most innocuous of magic, such as healing or other restorative spells

I'd like to get some thoughts on how a kingdom could go about finding and detecting magic users in all corners of society without having access to magic themselves for Detect Magic, Scrying, or related magical detection utility spells

@Viishnahn That sounds like it could be narrow enough, if you just focus on how to detect magic without Detect Magic.

Failing that, you could ask about the more world-build-y aspects here in chat.

Finally, Welcome to RPG.SE!

@JoelHarmon I was also debating on whether this would be better over on the Worldbuilding.SE, but I don't know how objective they like their questions over there

@JoelHarmon Thanks! I've been around for a while, actually. I just like to lurk for the most part and I'm pretty cautious before asking questions or doing other stuff that I could potentially screw up.

There's also the not-so-small matter that there's a race of mostly-magic-proof humanoids that the kingdom employs in small numbers as magehunters due to their strength in combat against casters. I don't know if that would factor into a question mostly revolving around intelligence-gathering, though.

One thing I've thought of is having a secret police, but the setting is somewhat analogous to 13th century Northeast Europe

What game system do you intend to use for this setting?

@MikeQ D&D 5th Edition

I'd say it depends on how you want to portray the nonmagical factions

You could easily end up highly institutional Inquisition style, or random bounty hunter style.

You could have a large-scale inquisition, who instill fear of magic, perform raids, and respond to reports about magical symptoms. This works well if you're going for an oppressive empire style.

@MikeQ The king is absolutely paranoid about magic and won't allow any of it, some support the king to curry favor while others in the court are less in agreement

@Viishnahn What does the God of Magic have to say about things?

That is, what do religions in general do?

If the setting is mostly villagers, or you dislike the inquisition idea, then have mage hunters be treated as specialized mercenaries, like hedge knights.

@MikeQ It's bordering on empire, but not quite so diverse as to be considered a full empire. There's a fair number of related ethnic groups and a few non-related under the banner.

@JoelHarmon There's the state religion, whose heads have distanced themselves from magic and all past clerics/paladins/lay healers have taken new vows to never use magic again. They are closely watched over. Other older, more pagan religions are more cult-like, are illegal, and thus don't care what the crown says.

Either way, the nonmagical method of hunting mages would be individuals looking out for symptoms of magical usage.

Whether that's a single coordinated inquisition, or widespread specialized hunters, or just superstitious villagers... that's up to you

Which would be oppressive, expensive, and bothersome to those in power (nobles, etc.) who would benefit from having magic around freely

@MikeQ Perhaps a mix of all three? Good thoughts!

You could look at something of an economic solution; just look for people buying various spell components.

Not foolproof, of course, but it'll prevent at least some spells.

You could also take the approach of someone using Wish or an Artifact to set up a kingdom-wide antimagic field.

@JoelHarmon I'm actually taking notes right now. Very good ideas.

Then note that this chat is permanently logged, if you ever need to come back to it.

@JoelHarmon Magic must defeat magic!

@MikeQ Who spellcasts the spellcasters?

If your world has a quirk like "all spells are in Draconic", then you might also try banning that language. The dragons may not like that.

@JoelHarmon Would prefer to avoid this method, as I have spellcaster party members playing within kingdom borders :P

Just say that magic usage is noticeable, and so using it risks being caught

@MikeQ That was part of the pre-session-zero discussion

Maybe the mage hunters have specialized devices that detect nearby magical auras

@MikeQ Science defeats magic?

I think a crucial choice you have to make is, how effective are the enforcers at enforcing their policy?

There's a question: what's the King's view on existing magic items?

@JoelHarmon Good idea! This setting was adapted from a book I'm writing, so it only has humans and that other spell-proof race (urac is the name)

Right - What's the consensus that magic is bad?

It's one thing to ban something, even to mobilize lots of resources to enforce the ban. It's another thing entirely to actually get people to stop doing the thing.

(cf Prohibition)

@JoelHarmon Existing magical stuff is locked away somewhere in vaults - somewhere hopefully that no one will break into, or convince someone to open for them, etc.

Is the anti-magic sentiment reinforced by social customs? Or is the big bad empire going out of their way to oppress a magic-starved populace?

@MikeQ Anti-magic sentiment varies, nearer to the capital the populace is actually in favor of the ban, since the civil war caused by the failed coup wrecked quite a bit of property and weakened the kingdom. On the outer reaches, though, people mostly ignore casters unless they're harassing innocents.

Heck, even in real-life cultures where magic is considered genuinely evil, there's always something like "white witches" who use their power for the good of the community and so everyone but the most fanatical or self-serving turns a blind eye.

@BESW Fair point.

True. Does the ban apply to everyone? Or are there sanctioned mages who have the authority to use their magic?

@MikeQ Kingdom-wide ban, no exceptions. Also, many of the surrounding smaller kingdoms have initiated a ban as well, but to a much lesser extent.

The king's insane, but he has good spin doctors to reinforce the idea that magic can only end in chaos and ruin for the people.

In the Broken Earth trilogy, the state propaganda about orogenes is so intensely paranoid that they're killed on sight by mobs of panicked citizens. The only way an orogene can survive unhidden is to be ripped from their families as a young child and raised in state institutions that train them to control their powers and simultaneously brainwash them with a strong sense of their own monstrosity.

The coup was also after a couple of civil wars where the crown was fighting to maintain control, so the people were war-exhausted and willing to give banning magic in exchange for peace a try. So far, it's worked.

@Viishnahn ... worked like magic?

@JoelHarmon Took me about ten seconds, then I groaned for five, then shook my head and laughed. Well-played.

That's pretty chilling.

@Viishnahn Mission accomplished. Now I need to head out; good luck with all this.

Is reputation for puns a thing? Can it be?

@JoelHarmon Thanks! Have a good night/day/whatever it is there

So, the political powers that came out on top of a recent war are devoting significant resources to policing a minority population they're scapegoating as the cause of the war, rather than trying to address whatever institutional or cultural problems caused the war in the first place?

That's too absurd to believe!

@MikeQ Well, it is a fantasy game.

Never! I want my wizards and catpeople and dragons to live in an immersive, realistic setting!

@MikeQ ...I have good news, and I have bad news.

@BESW Effectively, yes. The internal stability of the kingdom has been shaky for the last 30 - 40 years, so any measure that could help ensure stability would be desirable for the king, at least.

The other parties were also dealt with first.

I was going to ask why you were using D&D for a low-magic setting since that's a difficult fit at best.

But that's actually rather clever, since D&D's magic system is aggressively neutral so the diegetic accusations against it are exposed as obvious nonsense at the table level; while also magic is integral to the system's assumptions and the expected game experience so the restriction of magic feels like an affront to the natural order of the game and a direct affront to the players.

@BESW Friends thought I should try this setting that I've essentially built from the ground up over half a decade. I don't have any experience with other systems, and most of them like combat over the other elements anyway.

It could work with D&D, just remember that the system is designed in a way that most problems are solvable by magic. A magic-less world may seem incongruous if the regular elements of D&D are there.

I always try to design my scenarios with magic-less solutions (or no witnesses around)

@MikeQ To be clear, there are generally no restrictions (aside from certain balancing tweaks I've made) to spellcaster player characters; it's completely in-setting consequences.

hey there @nitsua60

@Viishnahn So you know how in Big Monster movies, there's always the military/authority figure who insists on sending the weenie fighter jets / tanks after the Big Monster?

And the audience knows that it's obviously not going to work

Maybe there's a scientist who explains why it won't work

@MikeQ Godzilla and the like, yeah

In a world that functions as D&D is designed, having an anti-magic attitude is much like that

Like, when the weird supernatural threats pop up, who do people expect to deal with them, if they can't pay a wizard to fix it?

@MikeQ yeah, especially for the truly weird ones. lycanthrope trouble? ok, give the local hunters silvered arrows

illithid trouble? uh oh

devil trouble? uh oh

@MikeQ Much the same way the peoples of the Medieval era dealt with major threats: try for a desperate resistance, parlay, or submit. I'm specifically thinking of the peoples of Europe when faced with threats such as the Huns or the Mongols.

Okay, so you can adjust the setting by cutting back on the supernatural monsters. D&D 5e can handle that at low-to-mid levels.

@Shalvenay This campaign is set in a completely homebrew world, and as such a lot of the D&D trope monsters either don't exist or are extremely rare.

@Viishnahn which is a very good thing because many of the mid-to-upper-end monsters are going to be very difficult, if not impossible (Rakshasa says hi!) to fight with neither spellcasting nor enchanted equipment available

Most of the stuff so far has been either mundane, low-level undead (not extremely otherworldly), a couple of rare mythological creatures (Scandanavian trolls, Slavic leshies, etc.), or stuff on other planes

@Shalvenay There's no consequences for using magic so long as one is not caught

Casters still exist, but are hunted and persecuted

Alternatively, you could tweak the mage-hunters so that they also double as the default monster hunters too, and maybe they even use magical charms (which are obviously too dangerous for an unsanctioned user!) to fight against magical foes. Basically they're Witchers.

@Viishnahn that is true, but given the Rakshasa's partial immunity to magic as well -- someone who can sling seventh circle (or better) spells is going to be just about impossible to find in such a world -- coupled to the rarity of enchanted weaponry, that Rakshasa is going to be large and in charge for a long time.

Magical items also exist, but are very rare and are illegal contraband. My party of 4 5th level characters have 4 magical non-consumables total.

@MikeQ Interesting idea. It could work where the oversight on the hunters is less, such as further away from the capital. Alternatively, magehunters could have taken these charms from their quarries and use them furtively to frustrate fugitive casters.

@Shalvenay Good point. Rakshasas probably don't exist in this setting, but something of analogous power level could move in and set up shop with little resistance (dragons, anyone?)

@Viishnahn yeah -- while dragons don't have the extreme immunities that rakshasas do, their flight would make them very troublesome opponents all the same, given that without magic, it's going to be very hard to gain any sort of battlefield control against them

Actual threats native to the Material Plane are generally few and far in-between. The most dangerous entities are those that reside on a plane I originally called the Ethereal Plane before I learned that D&D had one of those. It's different in that it's basically the source of most magic, and powerful creatures (some of which are patrons, and some are considered deities) reside on that plane. Some of these powerful beings can exert a limited effect on the Material Plane every so often.

@Viishnahn ah

Their power is typically tied to how many followers, devotees, and worshipers they have.

Most of the campaign thus far has been intrigue, plane-hopping, and mitigating the negative effects of these gods on the Material Plane.

Sounds like the Warp

@MikeQ Not a Warhammer fan, so I hadn't heard of this. The similarities are there, for sure.

Although there is another plane I concocted called The Void. No physics or anything related to law holds there - it's chaos embodied. Also, all references to the Astral Plane get directed to The Void instead.

The Void is also the source of a chaotic magic type not typical of spellcasters based on the power of living colour.

There's a few different types of magic in this setting's lore: galdur (magic from the Ethereal Plane; "galdur" is Icelandic for "magic"), koldata (color magic from The Void), ki (universal binding energy; the Force, essentially), and blood magic (raw energy from an unknown source, probably some combination of the others; from Blood Hunters)

@Viishnahn -- something came to my mind (probably an edge case in your book) -- how would they react to encountering a civilization that's clearly vastly Kardashev-superior to them? (i.e. something like a 1.5-1.7 on the extended Kardashev scale)

@Shalvenay I actually have no idea. This medieval setting actually grew out of an idea for a futuristic setting my friend and I developed back in middle school. In that setting, humanity does encounter a much more developed and militaristic civilization and is nearly destroyed.

They prevail, but that's my friend's domain. He develops all the random story bits in the future, while I develop them in the past.

@Viishnahn yeah, it came to mind mostly because the most powerful char (by far and wide) I've RPed is completely nonmagical, at least from an in-universe standpoint

@Shalvenay Like martial vs spellcaster?

@Viishnahn representative line: "Some folks say not to pick a fight with someone who buys their ink by the barrel. Where I'm from, we tell folks not to pick a fight with someone who buys their thermonuclear warheads by the production lot"

Ah, in less of a medieval tone, I see. Sometimes I forget we have those settings too. Point taken :P

@Viishnahn or, equivalently, "Oh, transmuting elements? We did that back in undergrad physics lab. Here, let me go fetch my neutron source and a few materials -- I'll demonstrate for you"

@Shalvenay What's your opinion on stereotypical D&D magic in futuristic settings? A la Spelljammer, etc.

@Viishnahn expect things to get really weird the first time you have a close encounter of the third kind. that's all I'm saying

also, don't be too arrogant about having whatever fancy powers you have

@Shalvenay I'd better sign off for now. Nice chatting with you!

@Viishnahn cya

@Viishnahn What's the zeitgeist around seems-like-magic-but-isn't, such as monks who can light things on fire with their minds (but it's not technically a spell!)?

@Viishnahn Also, careful; "ki" is a game term for Monks.

@BESW oh man thanks for that! I completely got that wrong. Should have double checked that.

@Rubiksmoose Totally understandable; we only ever talk about sockpuppets when they're being misused.

(Rule of thumb: if you're using a second account to do something that you can't do with just one account, like upvoting your own posts, don't. If you're using a second account to do things you could do with just one but want to use two anyway, like if you want to keep your activity on recreational Stacks and business Stacks separate, that's probably okay.)

@BESW XD

@trogdor You're right, we should talk more about sockpuppets.

@BESW Or if you wanted to do something that you're too privileged to do, as in this example - that's actually the most common use I've heard about.

@Miniman example?

which example?

@trogdor Vote to close a question without automagically closing it, if you're a mod or have a gold tag badger.

oooooh

ok I didn't catch that bit

I considered a couple times making a second account but,... then realized I would have no non-illicit reasons to use it?

no interesting or compelling ones anyway

unless I wanted to come in here without anyone knowing it was me

I can just log out for that really, then no one sees me looking at the chat XD

@BESW Nah, Rubiks was asking about creating an account in order to suggest an edit (as opposed to just making one).

yeah I never considered how having certain site privileges would cause maybe certain issues

Also an excellent use, I think.

@BESW I couldn't remember who that is, so I tried to look it up. Google Images suggests the picture shows a wall. Very helpful, Google, thank you.

@Anaphory Foldy, Dan Olson's alter ego in the early days of the Folding Ideas channel.

And, structurally, a(n extremely pretentious) sock puppet.

@BESW That bit was clear. I just recognized it, but didn't know from where.

Also:

@DavidCoffron I think I ought to ask the question, and you provide the answer. The question is almost one about game design, in terms of how to apply bounded accuracy, and what are the relationships between weapon damage and other properties.

Something like how do the weapons properties and damage relate to each other to support bounded accuracy ... while accounting for class features. Still not sure how to pose the question.

@Viishnahn Get a warlock who has that invocation who has gotten immunity from persecution for narcking out magic using people? (The invocation which is basically detect magic at will)

@Viishnahn I think monks might be able to get a pass since they can argue that "ki" isn't magic ... and since they are often lawful, you could fit that into the enforcer model regarding how to track down or punish magic use. Maybe.

@BESW Oh man, I love Scottish Falsetto Sockpuppet Theater!

@JoelHarmon They are so good.

It helps that I know a large Scottish man whose falsetto sounds spot on for the puppets.

Hee.

They're one of the best comedy duo acts I've ever seen.

Now I'm struggling to come up with counterexamples, and realizing how much I don't watch comedy duos.

To be fair neither do I. The Reduced Shakespeare Company is a three-person team.

(And if anyone here hasn't seen their Complete Works of William Shakespeare, Abridged, I recommend it highly.)

@BESW @JoelHarmon [double wave]

Yawp.

Pew pew pew pew pew

XD

@BESW Virtues, that Ophelia scene!

And how it ends with that good old Improv exercise :)

And really awesome at that!

@MikeQ Looks like you missed me, sorry :)

I'm still here, lurking

That's pretty common, I suspect.

I know I'm hit or miss on that, and sometimes I'm following along even if I'm not contributing.

@BESW I've been thinking of comedy duos now. The best I've come up with is the Two Ronnies (but I only know the Four Candles sketch), and Paul and Storm (who I think of more as musicians).

I seem to remeber that posting masked profanities is forbidden for the main site, is this true even for the chat? Because I'd really like to use some.

Try substituting with similar words

Otherwise have my frustration anyway and just know that, if it sounds tame, it's probably beacuse of that.

FOUR DAYS OF WORK FLUSHED DOWN THE TOILET!!!

As in professional work? Or TTRPG prep work?

TTRPG info about campaign NPCs for my players

All tidily composed

Many DMs have been there. Writing is an iterative process. A lot gets thrown out.

It was mostly translations of existing material, collected from several sources

and I've overwritten it

I've overwritten the file

Oh, it was an accident. Ah. Ok. Basically a "How do I undo rm -rf" scenario.

I mean some of my players are awful English readers

I don't, Mike, because it was all on the webserver, which makes no backups.

And I've noticed because I opened the page, so my internet cache has lost the info as well

Yikes. That's rough.

I had a browser that still had it cached, but guess what? I cleaned my cache today.

I want to scream, to curse, to shout, to throw the PC monitor on the ground, to punch the wall until I bleed and it all will be better than rewriting it. I'm pretty sure my parents next room wouldn't understand.

And all this calm writing here is just increasing my frustration.

Find a productive way to channel the frustration? Art? Exercise? Start rewriting from memory?

I think I'm gonna play some winmine

@JoelHarmon Fry and Laurie.

Python's not a comedy duo.

It's a troupe.

It's at least a duo

@JoelHarmon Do Wallace & Gromit count?

I figure if the Socks count, W&F do.