TRPG General Chat

12:39 AM

@Xirema yeah that kind of thing is one of many reasons D&D is just not on our group radar anymore, our whole RPG group got sick of the many compounding problems like that that seem to live in every edition of the game

Those who still play it, I salute you

Xirema

12:59 AM

@trogdor To be fair, if you do manage to work out the details, the stealth mechanics are a lot of fun! Thinking through the permutations of player choices and DM responses to handling stealth is a joy. I just don't want to have to point to 5 scattered paragraphs in 4 sections of 3 chapters of a book to prove that all those decisions are following the rules.

trogdor

@Xirema ah well I don't mean to say it isn't fun once you have the mechanics at your fingertips,... But the problem is you always have to hunt them down

BESW

cf: grapple.

trogdor

The mechanics of stealth are probably fun and cool in their own way, but Wizards has a nasty habit of making rule finding harder than it needs to be

@BESW yeah excellent example

Xirema

@BESW I have heard whispered through the wind, tales of adventurers who were so brash and foolhardy as to attempt a Grapple against their opponent.

As 'L' once said in the best adaptation ever of Death Note: "You're the one who flew too close to the sun, I'm the one here to make sure you burn!"

BESW

4e did a bit better, but mostly because of the online and published Compendiums.

trogdor

1:05 AM

Grapple rules in 3.5 at least were actually at least fun enough that my brother made a grapple character

BESW

For values of "fun" that mostly meant "tactically ridiculous."

trogdor

But boy we're they convoluted, and to some degree kinda broken

BESW

3.5 seemed to "balance" grapple's power with obfuscation.

trogdor

@BESW but like, he made the character and enjoyed it for a while

Yes there were definitely problems involved

BESW

In practice, once you got the rules under your belt, it was pretty easy to make a grapple-based character which effectively said "I win unless the GM uses freedom of movement, in which case I lose."

trogdor

1:07 AM

Yeah

BESW

I've seen at least three different "grapple to win" builds in my time in 3.5.

I built one of them--an epic character who used full-round attacks to hogtie multiple foes with anti-magic handcuffs.

trogdor

Not entirely surprised

BESW

He replaced his attack bonuses with Use Rope checks.

trogdor

How did you manage that?

Prestige class?

BESW

Yeah, I think the core of the concept was the Justicar PrC.

Nonlethal attacks that deal Strength damage, can treat handcuffs as flails.

If you're holding rope or manacles when you pin someone in a grapple, you can hogtie them instead of pinning them--and at higher levels, you can do it without the pin.

With a few grapple-specific features, you make a melee touch attack and then a Use Rope attack as part of the same attack, and get a hogtied opponent.

If you have multiple attacks per round, you can do it once per attack.

trogdor

1:29 AM

How ridiculous

BESW

Very.

I used anti-magic handcuffs, which suppressed casting and magic items, and any attempt to escape would have to beat my Use Rope check. Which I pumped up to nonsensical levels.

So I'd just walk up to a group and suddenly they're helpless on the ground.

trogdor

It's especially bad that it bypasses a usual defense against that kind of thing

If you don't even have to pin someone to tie them up,....

It seems like you could even do it to a bigger grapple monster

BESW

I think there's still a limit to the relative size of creature you can even attempt to grapple, but there's ways to fudge that--first and foremost, polymorph into something bigger.

trogdor

I actually meant just someone who is somehow better at grapple than you

Not that you are likely to run into something like that but

In the theoretical scenario in which you do it sounds like you just tie them up anyway

BESW

Ah, yes.

trogdor

1:37 AM

Which is...... Wtf

BESW

It was my Use Rope vs their grapple or Escape Artist.

trogdor

Oh

BESW

And since grapple is based on your attack bonus you just can't get it as high as a skill.

trogdor

Wait so they still got to make the roll then

BESW

And who maxes out Escape Artist?

Yes, there was a roll. Technically.

trogdor

1:38 AM

Rogues

Rogues do that

XP

Paranoid rogues

BESW

Not at the expense of other less niche features.

trogdor

Fair

BESW

I threw all my character-building resources into Use Rope. Item bonuses, feats, prestige classes, magic items, the works.

trogdor

Lol

BESW

Because at the time my character building strategy was to identify a single thing which, if maxxed out, made all other things irrelephant.

trogdor

1:40 AM

Yep

BESW

Like my anyganger who used Bluff and change shape.

trogdor

I remember several other examples of this phenomenon

XD

@BESW the quintessential example

Joshua

2:44 AM

@BESW: Using anti-magic anything around me is a darwin-award level bad idea.

Shalvenay

3:15 AM

@Joshua why is that, if I may ask?

Joshua

Because of the high probability I am carrying something highly energetic and barely magically stabilized.

Shalvenay

3:32 AM

@Joshua heheheh

The Oracle

7:47 AM

0

Q: Iterated homebrew question marked as dupe

Please note that this isnt one of the many questions on this site asking "why was my question closed" I'm just wondering if its right to mark a question that is an earlier iteration such as my first question on my runecaster feat as a dupe of a later iteration such as the second iteration of my q...

Transcript for