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6:00 PM
From Stranger Things
@Acts7Seven I think that's Burning Hands.
@Acts7Seven that looks like 30-year-old 11
or 20-year-old 11 who's seem some crap
> When Geordi's "1990's TV studio" holodeck program produces an episode of Star Trek, Data deduces The Enterprise is fictional. This creates a weird simulation loop that finally becomes sentient and leaves when Picard teaches it to love.
@doppelgreener And to be fair, she has seen some crap.
@Yuuki well. even more crap.
apparently they have planned to have only 4 seasons
so we won't see 11 that old, probably
6:04 PM
@doppelgreener Unless they decide to do a timeskip.
I like how Geordi and Data have these entertaining hijinks
@Yuuki i could see that happening at the end of season 4
Or pull a Twin Peaks and "time passes normally"-skip.
like, an epilogue time skip
And we have to wait years for the last season.
6:04 PM
but who is Barclay
where everyone got married except in the wrong ships, like at the end of harry potter
@doppelgreener Look, I'm not a big fan of Harry/Ginny (most because JK did pretty much zero development on that front) but I don't think Harry should have ended up with Hermione.
Harry should have married Malfoy, obviously
Harry is in a Facebook "it's complicated" relationship with Death.
marry = harry + malfoy. It checks out.
6:06 PM
@Yuuki same on all of the above, though JK said it should've been Harry/Hermione so even JK thinks she did it wrong
@Rubiksmoose perfect
@doppelgreener I think that quote from JK has been interpreted out of context.
now we need the rebel shipper who objects to Harry + Draco on the basis it should've been Harry + Lucius and that the 'marry' ship name should be exclusively for that ship
Nah man, Harry x Sorting Hat all the way
@doppelgreener No, Harry should've married that butter dish in Book 2.
@Yuuki you're wrong because he should've married the other butter dish from book 3 chapter 4 and i'm going to fight you over it physically
6:08 PM
@doppelgreener There was actually a butter dish in Book 2 that Ginny slipped her elbow in while being all schoolgirl crushing on him and why on earth do I remember that detail?
@Yuuki YES! I was just thinking that. That definitely need to be taking up some of my brain space lol
@Yuuki Ooooh, I actually went back to check on it -- you're right. JKR said she married Ron+Hermione as wish fulfilment (I thought it was Harry+Ginny that was wish fulfilment) and not because of credibility. She didn't say that any of it was wrong, or non-credible. Imagine -- they could've actually experienced character development in the intervening 10-20 years.
TNG Seasons 1 and 2 were needed to filter out what worked, what didn't, the writer pool to stop having mass turnover, and for Roddenberry to stop interfering.
About a page late to the conversation. I've been watching TNG again, in early S3.
@doppelgreener Offscreen character development? Blasphemy.
It might be just my conceptions of what's romantic and what's not but I think it would be even more romantic if instead of getting married with each other the main trio would meet in the same pub or park or bistro or whatever for the next forty years to chill out and chat, maybe throw a few inside jokes or something like that.
6:18 PM
Picard officiates a dangerous Vulcan divorce. Wes drinks a "suicide", which is everything the replicator can make blended into one drink.
@doppelgreener Speaking of character development, I felt Ron had more character development than Harry over the course of the series.
I don't think anyone really had character development
@Yuuki Ron had better character development, at least. Harry's development is mostly learning more about the wizarding world and slowly going from stranger to native.
He had a noticeable flaw, his unwillingness to admit that he’s wrong on his own, that he finally overcame in the final book.
I still sort of want that story where Harry is yanked to Middle Earth and becomes a commando wizard in the armies against Sauron.
6:21 PM
HP magic, even when wielded by a garbage wizard like Harry, is way too OP for Middle-Earth
@SPavel definitely. Just look at crystal balls. Every student uses one at Hogwarts, but in LotR the palantir are mythical items.
Does Sauron have a defense against Harry just teleporting apparating to Mt Doom?
Just the ability to conjure objects makes him appreciably stronger than anyone short of the Valar in Middle-Earth right?
@SPavel Kind of true, but most HP combat spells seem to be designed mainly for one-on-one duels while Sauron's thing is more like "too many to count-on-one"
@Rubiksmoose Well, the palantiri are more than just crystal balls, and also at Hogwarts the crystal balls are used for Trelawney's nonsense course
6:23 PM
@SPavel Good point - I originally thought of this before Harry learned to apparate.
@SPavel Well, apparition requires some previous knowledge of the location IIRC?
He can fly there on his broom
@kviiri Yeah I knew it was a bad example but I already had it typed so I just let it go.
The Nazgul have no ranged weapons, Harry can expelliarmus them to their deaths
A much better story would be Snape appearing in Middle Earth
He's not horrible enough that he for sure would usurp the ring, but it's pretty much 50/50
I still don’t buy Snape as a heroic figure.
He’s a Byronic hero at best.
6:25 PM
Snape is not heroic, which is why he would make a great protagonist
LotR has plenty of heroic dudes doing their heroics
@SPavel I was more speaking to the general fandom.
Which seems to have forgiven him for everything because of the last book.
Why not add in a ludicrously powerful but morally bankrupt dude who only has two emotions, and one of those emotions is reserved for a dead, married woman, and the other one is contempt?
With the exception of evil people and cowards I'd say basically every character in LotR was heroic in a pretty epic way.
@Rubiksmoose Well, it's sort of the codifier for modern heroic fantasy :)
To be fair, you could probably drop Snape into a Greek myth or something, and he'd be pretty heroic
Half of the people there lust after married women, dead women, or both
And hate everybody
6:27 PM
And hold petty grudges for dumb reasons.
cough Loki cough
@Rubiksmoose Hey, it’s not his fault that Thor admires snakes.
We need to get the "Star Trek season 8" guy to write up some scripts, like "Snape travels to the underworld to rescue Lily Potter. Ron and Ginny try to pawn their wands for butterbeer money."
But yeah, Loki is also a terrible person but for some reason, teenage girls have some weird fascination with guys with long dark greasy hair.
@Yuuki Harry suffers from having to be a protagonist who can be the reader's proxy into the world. He'll never have as great character development as everyone else, because the more character development he gets, the more distant he becomes from the reader.
@SPavel This one made me burst out laughing:
6:31 PM
@doppelgreener I actually read a very similar sentiment about protagonists in shonen anime/manga which I thought was very interesting
Picard wants racist aliens to stop being so damn racist. Riker accidentally sells Data to a prostitute.
@Rubiksmoose See also the Silent Protagonist trope in video games. Link never says anything because him saying nothing lets us be him.
@Rubiksmoose Ah yes, dumb as hell main character who doesn’t know practical everyday knowledge about the fantasy world he lives in.
e.g. Uzumaki “what’s ‘catra’?” Naruto.
@doppelgreener Although, to be fair, I find that sometimes very annoying. Because the characters' reactions to Link's presumed conversation basically dictate what he said anyways. And sometimes it is counter to what I wanted to do.
Not annoying enough to not love LoZ to death and BotW is an absolute masterpiece, but there you have it. Nothing is perfect.
Link is not allowed anywhere near the pottery items in my home.
@Rubiksmoose Understandable!
6:37 PM
Has anyone watched Bright?
(Aside, @Rubiksmoose, that interaction on meta we had around finding a link that didn't work was making me giggle)
It’s not nearly as bad as the critics say, imo.
@doppelgreener Me too! And you know what was even funnier: I had a hard time finding one! Partially because I don't have the physical books on me right now (so I needed a previous answer with a source with a page number), but the other main blockage was that most of the answers I came across just depended on the basic rules lol
@doppelgreener darnit, dndbeyond is just looking pretty nice. I've got the books, but having full searchable access is a really neat tool.
@Rubiksmoose I guess "halfoy" doesn't quite roll off the tongue and doesn't really make sense given that neither is Jewish.
6:41 PM
@NautArch The search function is the best and worst part of it right now. It is good enough to be really convenient except when it fails utterly to find something simple.
@Yuuki It doesn't really no.
@Yuuki Naruto's incompetence is reasonably realistic - he's ostracized by pretty much everybody so he's never learned jack, and even afterwards he is kind of stupid.
Fortunately for him, competent people constantly take pity on him.
@Rubiksmoose i signed up when it first came out (for the free intro) and it was...okay.
@SPavel Yeah, he's lucky he didn't decide become the leader of the ninja village's IT department.
You know what a super nice feature of dndbeyond would be? If you clicked a link that you didn't have access to, it would give you a page number to find it in the book. Would I want to be the one to implement this? Not a chance.
Iruka gives him a pass for stealing a village treasure and actually gets him into the academy, Kakashi decides to train him after he's the only one that breaks his rules, I don't remember why Jiraya does but it's probably something equally stupid
His only real accomplishment is talking to the Fox
6:46 PM
@SPavel Godson, IIRC.
That might be fanon actually.
@Yuuki Thanks, now I'm trying to picture Ninja Village IT.
Oh right, because Naruto is also the Third's child so he has all that going for him
But it's definitely related to him being the son of his favorite student.
@SPavel Fourth.
Some weird hand gesture set for basic diagnostics.
6:47 PM
who can keep track of all the hokages anyway
@SPavel Especially once they start coming back from the dead.
@Maximillian Circuit diagrams drawn with ink on scrolls
Honestly they should have just made Madara the Hokage from the beginning, would've saved so much trouble
"Okay here's your problem, you're bending your index finger during the third gesture when you need to keep it straight. Try that again and see if the issue resolves. If it doesn't, pray to your power source to reboot the jutsu, and see if that helps."
They should've just killed all the Uchihas.
@NautArch You can ask @BESW and @trogdor about how it was for them during their D&D 4e games. From what I recall, they found it irreplaceable. Trogdor used it for build options, BESW for being able to easily search the entire body of published monsters for DMing purposes as well as items to provide to players. Not even having all the books can match that.
6:49 PM
@Yuuki Well, all the Uchihas keep coming back from the dead
@SPavel Because of other Uchihas. If they just killed all of them, there wouldn't be any left to bring the others back from the dead.
@SPavel Only 2 of them were REALLY dead
Madara was first immortal and then came back from the dead twice, Obito came back from the dead, so did Itachi, so did Sasuke at some point I'm pretty sure (I think he was supposed to be dead while inside the barrel?)
They just thought Obito was dead (because he was crushed by a giant boulder, to be fair).
He also used that one technique the time that paper chick killed him, to un-kill himself
6:52 PM
@doppelgreener I can see definitely how that would be true. Multi-source search, even with the few sources we have right now, is incredible. With a library the size of 4e....
@Rubiksmoose ... it makes the content even remotely manageably available, and then, awesomely manageable.
@SPavel I like how that ability started with the already OP "I can copy everyone's move" and then went on to "I can retcon reality".
@Yuuki And of course the only way to defeat a reality retcon is also with Sharingan
Power creep in Naruto got seriously ridiculous.
IIRC, turns out the final BBEG is a dimensional traveler that journeys through realities to harvest them of their energy with a giant demon tree?
@doppelgreener I never played 4e. I started with and played a couple years of Pathfinder and went right into 5e as soon as it came out. It was a bit of a shock the lack of online resources coming from Pathfinder at first.
6:57 PM
@Yuuki I thought she was literally Eve, except instead of knowledge of good and evil, the fruit gave her ninja powers?
And the dimensional thing came after
@SPavel I think it's one of those things that retconned in a spin-off.
@Yuuki No I mean in the main series, metaphorically
Princess whoever is just a regular person and eats the chakra fruit
Well... I guess?
And then starts feeding people to the chakra tree for moar power
And then her son goes to live on the moon.
But in a spin-off/filler, turns out she's from an alien species that travels through dimensions/realities to harvest energy from them through the trees.
6:59 PM
Still not as stupid as the filler where they had a robot Naruto who was stronger than normal Naruto
and then was never mentioned or used again
Or the various things that seem like they'd be important but are just one-offs that aren't mentioned again. Like the jar that could seal anything inside of it.
Maybe in-universe everyone is like "well yeah that jar is useful, but naturally the enemy knows the secret anti-jar technique"
I did like the item that steals your soul if you use your catchphrase 3 times
or whatever it was
@Yuuki photo is burning hands. But next to photo is Call Lightning. I think it's safe to say the producer did their best to find a character like the one shown.
opinion-based or legitimate?
I think it's legitimate but requires more specific criteria.
Like - what are the characters, why do they not want to form a party
Otherwise it's just a forum thread to share anecdotes
7:13 PM
@Rubiksmoose Dang man. I really need to read through Xanathar carefully.
@NautArch ← feel free to re-close this if you are concerned by it. I'm just one person, and I reserve my diamond hammer for when I'm very sure something needs hammering, and leave everything else for the community to hash out - some things five other people can work out better than just me.
@doppelgreener I feel the same way with the Gold hammering now. Until I'm more comfortable, is it okay if I do what I did in terms of posting here and asking?
I am voting to close as too broad until edits are made
If I see a few come in, I may drop the hammer just to prevent an early answer.
@NautArch Yes, always. Sometimes if I'm in doubt I act anyway and then let the community override my decision if I was wrong, too.
@NautArch Gold hammer only applies to closing as a duplicate, not other close reasons.
(that's why it's aka the dupe hammer)
7:22 PM
@doppelgreener well then, that simplifies things!
@NautArch I don't know why, but I remembered that part immediately lol It is a good book for sure.
@Rubiksmoose because you're obsessed with sleeping?
The theory is, if you have a gold badge, you have seen enough different questions in that subject you definitely know when something is a dupe of something else.
our current DM (yes yes i know i know) has us fight during rests so that most of us aren't armored or prepared regularly.
@NautArch That's so annoying
My characters would all be monks
7:24 PM
@SPavel yes, yes it is. His ethos is definitely to handicap us and not to challenge us at our strengths.
@NautArch Obviously, the strengths of your PCs lie in areas you don't want to deal with, therefore you made your PCs stronger so that they could get those things out of the way faster
@NautArch If that happened to me on a regular basis, I might just considering purposefully making characters to die.
And convincing everyone else in the party to do so.
@NautArch hahaha if anything I'm possibly quite the opposite.
@SPavel not really. I mean, I have some different tactics for those situations, but overall my tactics are generally driven by the encounters themselves.
@NautArch I'm using bad DM logic
7:27 PM
@Yuuki we're at end-game now. and I'm debating about just letting my guy die in the next encounter so I can stop playing with this guy.
The thing is, DMs like that hate when characters die, because then the players aren't squirming
but the next DM is picking up the same world for his campaign (decades in the future) and I'd like my character to have some more meaning in that world.
Nothing bothers them more than players who have no stakes
@NautArch Have a noble heroic sacrifice that gets your character deified
@SPavel then he's definitely bothered. but he'll just punish in other ways.
@SPavel if i die in this encounter, it's an alternate plane. no one will know. I just will have left and never returned.
@SPavel There's nothing more dangerous than a man with nothing left.
7:29 PM
and i'm the only one with revivify.
one cleric refused to have it prepared, and the other burned through all his spell slots.
@NautArch If you're in a situation with an obviously antagonistic DM and your party decides to blame you for dying, then the whole table is toxic.
@Yuuki oh, they won't blame me.
@NautArch Well, that's good, I guess.
i'm just saying if i die, it's unlikely my story will become legend :)
@NautArch You just have to kill a bunch of vampire zombies under the mistaken belief that they're not sapient.
And then you are legend.
7:33 PM
@Yuuki will smith or charlton heston?
but i guess I am saying I'll blame them if i die :)
@NautArch I have problems with both adaptations.
Will Smith's is slicker but I feel like the original cinematic cut suffers from the ending narration and the revised ending.
"I Am Legend" not because he becomes the horror story monster analogue to the vampire zombies but because he sacrificed his life so that the mother and kid could escape with the cure.
I know they initially tried for the original ending but focus groups didn't make sense of it or whatever.
But still.
i hear ya
And Charlton Heston's version also missed the point of the story.
The vampire zombie dudes are out-and-out bad guys.
"I Am Legend" is perhaps the story of the most poorly-adapted novel in history. I don't think any adaptation has gotten it right.
With the deleted ending, I'd argue that Will Smith's is perhaps the best/most faithful of the "I Am Legend" adaptations.
7:50 PM
Because it's a story all about how human life got flip turned upside down?
@MikeQ Release one little genetically-engineered measles virus and suddenly everyone's mom gets scared.
Yes, and then with the help of a virus made on an apple laptop, he blows up the vampire spaceship and saves America
@MikeQ It helps that the spaceship runs Unix, he knows Unix. And he can do this.
Yep, and then he teaches his shark buddy some dating advice. Just like in the book.
How was your new year / holidays @Yuuki?
Pretty good. Unfortunately, we missed the target of moving back in before the end of the year.
8:29 PM
@doppelgreener yeah, having all the books can't even come close
it could take you several times as long to find what you are looking for
Just memorize all the books
lol sure
you do that if you want
meanwhile I will already have 100 characters made
@trogdor Sure, but after that point, I will be able to produce characters much more efficiently
@SPavel If you're not aware, @TNG_S8 did get turned into a book, which has the plotlines a bit more fleshed out. It's somewhere in my house. Good if you like that kind of humor, not worth it at all if you don't.
8:45 PM
@SPavel not more effieciently, I think, but good on you anyway if you do it
I can't bash someone for wanting to memorize some books
@trogdor Well, the drawback is that my characters tend to be pointlessly complex because I am aware of the options
@SPavel oh in 4e there was no pointless complexity if you were going for a goal
I loved it
Pointless complexity is life
I made soooooo many characters in that system because of it
Nothing like a good dash of dizzying sophism to get the blood pumping
8:50 PM
I wouldn't compare it to that but wtv XD
9:27 PM
@trogdor "Epicyon" means either "more than a dog" or "not quite a dog." Either seems an apt alternative for "dire wolf."
9:41 PM
10:01 PM
@NautArch I also sometimes feel that way. Sometimes I'll drop a link; other times I'll drop the hammer but also leave a comment saying "here's what I'm thinking and what swayed me to 60-40 in favor of closure, but if reopeners be reopenin' I won't be reclosin'." As much to invite people to use their votes and disagree with me freely as to explain, frankly.
@NautArch My ethos--rather, my written note to self--is to try to find a place each session to (a) play directly into a character's strongest feature and (b) play directly away from a character's strongest feature. I.e. sometimes you put a wall between the barbarian and the bad guy, sometimes you lock 'em in a room together =)
@nitsua60 Goldarnit, stop selling gaming with you! You're making this very difficult :)
Not selling, and if you're tempted to buy... just look at the next two days' weather reports =)
@nitsua60 Each session may be too frequent, but it definitely sucks to sit out for a whole session because you're literally stonewalled, and it sucks for everyone else when the barbarian goes full threshing mode and they are all playing dainty intrigue guys who are lousy with a blade unless it comes to slicing steaks.
@nitsua60 I assume that the first the playing into the barbarian's ability to smash through walls, while the second is playing against the barbarian's confusion about social etiquette?
@SPavel yeah, I definitely don't get to check each box for every PC every session, but I do literally make check-marks and try to keep my eyes/ears open.
@BESW Yes. Exactly.
10:10 PM
I have never encountered a barbarian who was particularly confused about social etiquette, at least not until after the fact (why is everyone looking at me like that, all I did was scalp him a little)
The difficulty, of course, is that players love to make characters with very different abilities, so it's hard to make sure everyone can contribute
PCs also love to imagine themselves succeeding all the time, and their enemies failing all the time, so they rarely prepare a secondary way to contribute
If you want to diversify things (as the GM), I suggest worrying less about mechanical design of challenges, and instead trying to change up the nature of the challenge. Maybe use movies & TV for inspiration for "high-tension scenario that isn't combat".
I don't worry (at all) about mechanical design when trying to check these boxes; rather I think about what the NPCs do in an encounter when it's time to try and check a box on my "party worksheet." I don't care if playing to character C's [strength|weakness] is particularly good or bad for an opponent--I've got lots of other ways of balancing that scale =)
@SPavel Hm? I've encountered many characters of all trades who were very confused about social etiquette (for some reason my players enjoy upsetting people with a higher social status than them :P )
11:10 PM
hey there @ACuriousMind
hey there @Shalvenay
how're things going?
@ACuriousMind alright here, as for you?
Still doing poorly on the "adjusting sleep cycle" bit, but otherwise fine :)
11:32 PM
ah. btw, Pixie won't be around this upcoming weekend, but we can look to next weekend
@SPavel This is one reason I've gravitated toward systems which are either so narrowly defined that competency modes are always mechanically applicable, or which encourage character-driven narrative to the point that you pretty much can't have a character who's mechanically limited to only one or two competency modes.
A good example of a really obvious way to do that is Atomic Robo, where your character is defined by three broad competency modes (Action, Science, Robot) each of which is further defined by a phrase that describes your particular approach or specialty in that mode (Fighting the Good Fight, One of the Foremost Engineers in the World, Virtually Indestructible). That forces you to have a pretty broad set of "How I can be relephant to the situation" tools.
@Shalvenay Alrighty
Whether you're at a fancy dinner party or trying to disarm a rocket while being shot at, it's equally important that you're a famous engineer who uses being an indestructible robot to fight for good: that's what you are and why you do things so it's useful in any situation you find yourself.
11:53 PM
hey there @Novak
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