TRPG General Chat

BESW

02:14

Two awesome things only available till tomorrow! Blades in the Dark special edition: https://bladesinthedark.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders 1/2

Tweeted by SeanNittner on February 27, 2017 at 11:31 PM

And apply to be in the Fate of Cthulhu playtest: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdHmdmrmgdqtNIBrnPBo0WMSg9hvRTDOUsHgwOnpEf61-nsGQ/viewform 2/2

Tweeted by SeanNittner on February 27, 2017 at 11:32 PM in reply to SeanNittner

Shalvenay

hey there @nitsua60

nitsua60

hiya

Shalvenay

how're things going?

nitsua60

grading exams. ugh.

Shalvenay

the only thing worse than taking them :P

nitsua60

02:24

=)

Shalvenay

OK here. are we still on for next week btw?

nitsua60

I haven't checked in on discord in a while--have we coalesced around a time yet? Also, who's "we" these days? I know Thorgrim's out (1st-order fake-name obscured for privacy), and Mat's timing was uncertain. Leaving paladin-whose-character-name-I-can't-remember and you, which is a little shy of where I'd like to be. (3 or 4 is my preference for this.)

In any case, I'm ready any time the group can make it work.

Shalvenay

yeah -- we were hoping to swing Ash in, and we were looking at Saturday nights

nitsua60

That time works for me, except for 3/11. (3/4 is good, as are 3/18 onward.)

user15026

I do know next to nothing about character creation, so if I'm in, I'm gonna need some help

nitsua60

02:29

@Ash Happy to help =)

Wonder if it's worth scheduling a session-zero for 3/4, then, and planning to play starting 3/18?

user15026

that would work, except 3/25 and 4/1 I have unchangeable commitments (picking up SO from airport, and family dinner, respectively)

nitsua60

<yoink>

Are we sure Sat eve is the best time?
=)

Three of the next four one of us has a commitment.

(In any case, this probably isn't the best channel to figure out scheduling. It's gonna bore the tourists.)

user15026

@nitsua60 True facts :)

trogdor

lol

Miniman

@nitsua60 Tourists?

nitsua60

02:36

@Miniman Eh... I guess I just meant any non-participant onlookers to that particular line of conversation.

Shalvenay

yeah -- we probably should take this to Discord :P

nitsua60

Also, if there actually are any tourists in the room, they're probably bored. Else why would they be logged into chat from their amazing current locale!?

Miniman

@nitsua60 Perhaps spectators, then?

nitsua60

Would have been a better term, yes.

Miniman

@nitsua60 Hey, when I was on vacation I still made it into chat a couple of times :P

nitsua60

02:38

Me too--just not enough to keep my 500-plus day streak going =\

(That's sad on so many levels.)

Miniman

I lost mine just before it would have made 1000 :(

nitsua60

I... have such mixed feelings about that.

1. sad for you
2. sad I never got that far
3. glad I never got that far
4. unsure, now, of how ridiculous niche metrics on Stack should figure into my sense of self-worth
5. sure that they shouldn't
6. but they do
7. but only a little
8. seriously, I don't take it that seriously.
(9. did I say 'seriously' too many times? They're going to think I'm covering....)

Miniman

Yeah, I feel a little weird about it

Especially since I broke it once before but the site didn't notice >.<

nitsua60

sneaky!

Miniman

I have no idea how I got away with it

BESW

02:47

Timing!

nitsua60

Timey-wiming!

Miniman

Or possibly it's whoever else uses my account

I've suspected before that there was someone else

nitsua60

off the top of anyone's head/books: what's the XP for L11 in 5e? (I'm (gasp!) AFB.)

nvm. SRD.

Miniman

@nitsua60 85000

in case you're still scrolling through

nitsua60

ty--that was faster than srd =)

That means ~14K until I have to make that decision about feat vs. ASI we were discussing the other week. Will bring it up with the table at next session.

(For my sharpshooter who doesn't really need to be any sharper.)

LegendaryDude

02:56

I finally get to make a 5e character that I can run in a game! Not sure if I want to go Oath of Ancients paladin or cleric of war (or maybe an illusionist wizard).

Shalvenay

@LegendaryDude aah. nice

Miniman

@LegendaryDude I can't say I'd recommend cleric of war - it's only barely better at hitting stuff than most other clerics, and it loses a lot in comparison.

JuneShores

Hi hi.

Miniman

@JuneShores Hi!

LegendaryDude

@Miniman After reading the war domain description and features again last night, I'm definitely leaning more towards the paladin.

@Miniman I think if I did go cleric I'd do either light or tempest.

Miniman

03:01

@LegendaryDude You've picked the 2 best options there :)

LegendaryDude

The rest feel like cleric versions of other classes which aren't as good as those other classes and don't do much more on their own.

Miniman

@LegendaryDude Paladin is probably my favourite class - it's one of the only ones with successful synergy between casting spells and hitting stuff.

LegendaryDude

@Miniman Yeah, I dig the way the smite spells work a lot.

And I really like the "Green Knight" angle that Oath of the Ancients has.

Miniman

@LegendaryDude It's also the most powerful by a long shot - Aura of Warding is just too gewd.

CTWind

@LegendaryDude I love Oath of the Ancients, though I feel like Paladin takes a while to get going in general (feels very resource-based & limited)

LegendaryDude

03:04

I'm usually a fan of the "defenders of nature" type classes, but ranger feels really underwhelming in 5e (it's usually my go-to class/archetype)

Miniman

@CTWind In fairness, you're still just about as powerful as a fighter during that time.

CTWind

True. It's totally a psychological thing.

LegendaryDude

I was thinking of taking a single level of fighter just for the additional fighting style

Miniman

@LegendaryDude I think the problem with Ranger that they still haven't fixed with all this Unearthed Arcana is that they're trying to make it all things to all people.

They want it to be good at dual-wielding, good at archery, have a pet, not have a pet, cast spells, not cast spells...

CTWind

@Miniman Yeahhh, talk to 5 different people and you'll get 5 different answers of what they view a ranger as

Miniman

03:06

They need to settle on an identity and go for it.

LegendaryDude

@Miniman Yes! I think it needs to focus on the pet angle. Make it a hunter with a pet, and make it really synergize with the pet.

Miniman

@LegendaryDude That's how I'd go, too.

Shalvenay

hey @JuneShores

CTWind

There are some people who'd be totally satisfied by a ranged fighter with the outlander background if they didn't know they weren't technically a Ranger.

Shalvenay

yeah, Ranger really needs a focus

Miniman

03:07

@CTWind I've talked to a fair few people about it at this point, and mostly their answers tend to be minor variations on "archer with a pet".

Shalvenay

I'd leave archery to a Fighter archetype myself

and let Ranger focus on the companion shenanigans

Miniman

I think Wizards aren't willing to let go of the cruft from previous editions, too.

The weird part is, they talked about its lack of identity in one of their podcasts, so they clearly know what the problem is.

CTWind

@Miniman I mainly see that and up close, agile two-weapon attacker (like a rogue, minus the tricky bits) as the two visions.

BESW

"Wizard cruft" sounds like a spell reagent.

Shalvenay

yeah -- there really is a deep split there

LegendaryDude

03:11

@BESW Or what's left of the wizard after an unfortunate run-in with a giant.

BESW

Why not both?

Shalvenay

@BESW maybe it's what giant wizards use as a spell reagent :P

CTWind

They either need to break up the various 'ranger' concepts into different classes (or get people to realize that some classes can fulfill the ranger archetype without having the Ranger(TM) name slapped onto it) or have very little in the ranger base class and almost flip the ratio of how many features the main class vs subclass gives.

Shalvenay

@CTWind yeah -- Ranger is the one sore spot I find in 5e -- 3.5e's ranger was actually somewhat better focus I find

and yes, I do like Oath of the Ancients as well as far as Paladins go

CTWind

Which, to be fair, I think with the various Scout unearthed arcana entries they're trying to do some of the former.

They've had one for figher and one for rogue that makes them into rangers, essentially?

Miniman

03:14

Yep.

LegendaryDude

@CTWind I remember the early Scout archetype for fighter, I don't recall the one for rogue.

CTWind

I think it was in the latest UA barrage's Rogue article, though it might've been earlier.

Yeah, the Ranger and Rogue (appropriately) one.

LegendaryDude

@CTWind Ah, yeah. I remember reading that now.

CTWind

@LegendaryDude I really liked Light cleric when I played it. I felt very blasty, with the option of the usual cleric spell portfolio if it was needed as support. Extremely good choice if your party's lacking both a firepower caster and support caster.

Played a light cleric when my DM was trying an adaptation of Dragonstar for 5e.

LegendaryDude

@CTWind I get priority on class choice because I've been DM for the year while everyone has been playing their characters, but I think I'm still going to wait and see what everyone else is playing. We have another player who wants to play a wizard and potentially another who wants to go wild mage sorc, so I think we've got the arcane blasting covered pretty well.

Shalvenay

03:20

yeah, I think Oath of the Ancients Paladin is a solid choice in your case

CTWind

@LegendaryDude I usually play the wait and see game too, though mostly because I have like 3-4 things I want to try bouncing around in my head at any one time and I let party choice narrow it down for me.

LegendaryDude

Leaning pretty heavily toward paladin at this point, though for a while I was really liking my tabaxi illusionist concept. I think I'm going to shelve that character until the next game, though.

CTWind

I really like the idea of a OotA Paladin focused around keeping a target pinned down inside Moonbeam (I love that spell), but super-focusing on doing so makes you really feat dependent & MAD.

Shalvenay

yeah

I got freakishly lucky with my existing OotA Pally (slated to be a Palalock)

LegendaryDude

@CTWind You mean Sentinel, Polearm Master, and Great Weapon Master?

GWM optional, but Polearm Master + Sentinel combo is awesome for controlling the battlefield.

CTWind

03:26

Sentinel definitely, less so the others (in my case I really wanted to keep the focus on keeping Moonbeam up, primarily by walking up to the target then casting moonbeam adjacent to me). Maybe Resilient (Con) for concentration. Then cap STR & CHA for offense (& perhaps grappling them in place inside Moonbeam).

Shalvenay

hrm....that actually might be a better plan for Jherala -- having her switch up to a halberd or some such and go Polearm instead of GWM

Adeptus

@Miniman And we all thought BESW was the gestalt entity - it was you all along! ;)

LegendaryDude

Still deciding if I want to invest the ASI's into that route, and I really want to play an elf but the human variant looks so good for that bonus feat at level 1.

CTWind

Yeah, it's a tough choice. I'm saving my (wood) elf character for a future Knowledge cleric I'm planning.

trogdor

@Adeptus all going according to plan, they have accepted the decoy

Shalvenay

03:28

not quite as iconic xD but quite nasty nonetheless esp with the ol' Darkness + Devil's Sight cheese (appropriately refluffed ofc)

trogdor

XD

LegendaryDude

@Shalvenay It's tough. I spent a lot of time today writing an anydice to compare the damage output between GWM and Polearm Master (and the combined output).

Shalvenay

it does raise questions about what her endgame weapon would be too

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie I'm torn about that "build an NPC" question you just commented on.

LegendaryDude

Turns out GWM + Polearm Master is pretty great -- the 1d4 bludgeoning doesn't seem that good until you consider that GWM gives you a flat +10, plus your mod (so another +4 or +5)

nitsua60

03:30

On the one hand I think it needs closure, because there're a bunch of questions in there.

OTOH, many of them stem from a fundamental misconception: in one place (DMG) he's looking at dmg assuming everything hits, in the other (spreadsheeet) he's looking at expected damage.

So the answer to his bottom-line "am I missing something substantial" is "yes." And that'd clear up many of the other questions he has.

CTWind

I think my moonbeam pally plan was gonna be Variant Human for Sentinel, start with 16 CHA/STR (15+1/8/13/10/10/15+1), then get Resilient (CON) later for 14 Con & saving throw prof. That plus 4 ASIs to eventually reach 20 in STR & CHA.

And that's around the time I realized I was planning a super-high-level build that I will never really reach in any game >_>

LegendaryDude

But it means no ASIs until late, which makes it tough to work out unless you get lucky during chargen

SevenSidedDie

@nitsua60 Oh, missed that he has the DMG. In that case it probably falls under our "what if the asker is just confused?" meta.

LegendaryDude

@CTWind Always the problem!

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 -- is there a reason you aren't on Discord btw?

CTWind

03:34

That's when I switched to my forest gnome shadow monk with no feats plan. Easy mage killer!

nitsua60

@Shalvenay Probably that I rebooted at some point in the last week and haven't thought to restart it?

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 ah, reboots :P

nitsua60

@SevenSidedDie Gotcha--thanks.

Joel Harmon

@BESW That reminds me: I recall seeing an ad for a Vegetarian and Vegan stack, which I assume you'd be interested in.

@Miniman ... how is Archetypes not the answer there?

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Well, the Beastmaster is a perfect example. They created an archetype for it, but it's too powerful to be fully realised as an archetype, so they nerfed it, and it suffered.

Joel Harmon

03:42

nerf the base and power the archetypes?

Miniman

Yep, CTWind suggested the same thing.

Joel Harmon

I just saw "some people want spells, others don't" and noted two other classes that add spells to a chassis via archetypes

Miniman

It could definitely work, and I think they're slowly pulling in that direction.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman ... and I'm about five lines behind that in the backlog.

Shalvenay

@nitsua60 -- looking at Ash's schedule -- it seems Friday and Sunday nights are the only other options that could work given my schedule

unless @Ash has other thoughts

hey there @GregoryAvery-Weir

LegendaryDude

03:46

I really liked the idea of the no-magic ranger on the article for creating new archetypes‌.

Not sure how that ranger archetype stacks up but it's an interesting take on the class.

Miniman

Yeah, I'm a fan of spell-less, but I was underwhelmed by chucking in the battlemaster stuff as a replacement.

LegendaryDude

Yeah, it seems tacked on.

Miniman

Actually, in general, I'm not a fan of the sheer number of times they've gone to the battlemaster well for unearthed arcana.

CTWind

Heh, I actually like the battlemaster mechanic and wish it was a more general 5e mechanic.

I mean, I like the battlemaster and it'd suck to lose their identity like that

but the mechanic is cool

LegendaryDude

I do like the mechanic of using dice for more than just checks and damage. 5e does a lot of neat tricks like that; inspiration dice have a similar feel to them.

CTWind

03:50

IIRC they were at some point having Proficiency be proficiency dice instead of a flat bonus

Miniman

Yeah, back in the playtest

LegendaryDude

A few spells do it too, bless comes to mind.

That's kind of a neat idea, I've thought about a graduated dice-based skill system before

Miniman

It's hard to do tight design with that much variability, though.

LegendaryDude

1d4 for your worst skills, 1d12 for your best. I couldn't figure out a good distribution curve though.

@Miniman Exactly the problem I ran into.

Joel Harmon

see Bounded Accuracy

@LegendaryDude sounds like Savage Worlds

Miniman

03:53

See, the minimums there are really scary from a game design POV.

I'd be more inclined towards 1d4 for your worst skills, 4d4 for your best.

So you don't just get better, you get consistently better.

Joel Harmon

4-16, averaging ~10? Hmm..

Skyler

man, I pit a shade made from one of my PCs against the whole party at the last session and you guys werent kidding when you said I could have made a very deadly encounter if i went further than that

Miniman

@Skyler Yeah, D&D has never really supported PVP.

LegendaryDude

@Miniman That makes for a much better curve. Yeah. I just liked the idea of assigning different dice to different skills. I tried adding flat mods to balance it out but couldn't make it work.

Miniman

@LegendaryDude I'm pretty sure there's systems that do it already - I think Shadowrun does something similar?

LegendaryDude

03:56

@Miniman Shadowrun is all d6's

Miniman

@LegendaryDude Yep, but I think it has the same mechanic of "you get more dice the better you are at it".

Although it uses them differently, it's a "number of successes" type thing.

LegendaryDude

Yes, but you also have limits.

Skyler

I pulled my punches just a little bit since the player I was going as could truly do nova damage (no paladin double smite pain)

Probably good thing I didn't add in the per round hp regen

Joel Harmon

@Skyler threw punches or pulled them?

Skyler

fixed

LegendaryDude

03:59

You have a test which is a skill plus an attribute, you need to hit a threshold number of hits by beating a [5] typically, and you are limited in the number of hits you can actually get by your attribute. It's... really complicated, unfortunately.

Miniman

@LegendaryDude That last part I knew :)

Joel Harmon

there's also Mage and friends; DM sets difficulty and your skill is your dice pool, looking for successes on that difficulty

LegendaryDude

@JoelHarmon Yes, Storyteller is what I learned to RPG with. It's a well-designed system if you're not interested in math.

Very simple, easy to understand, adapts well to almost every situation.

Joel Harmon

I like the ability to build something unusual, like a charismatic barbarian, without totally killing yourself mechanically

Skyler

btw 5e folks, do you let your PCs play the favored soul from the erata

Miniman

04:03

@Skyler UA, not errata - also, which one? The first one or the second one?

Skyler

@Miniman There's a second?

@Miniman any chance for links

Joel Harmon

@Skyler No, I stick to published stuff as a general rule.

CTWind

Yeah, the most recent Sorc UA added a revised one

media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/26_UASorcererUA020617s.pdf is the new sorc UA.

LegendaryDude

The original favored soul is in the page I linked earlier

Same article as the no-spells ranger

The newer favored soul is in a recent UA article

Miniman

@Skyler My general policy is to allow UA material, but none of my players have ever asked to use any.

Skyler

04:05

i looked at the newer one

VERY different

Miniman

I'll admit, both Favored Souls are on the sketchy side, balance-wise.

I'd definitely be concerned.

CTWind

Main reaction I've seen from the original favored soul UA is a violent rejection of giving sorcs more known spells. Not sure how much I agree with that as a hard line in the sand, but I may agree that adding 10 is a bit much.

2

LegendaryDude

I allow UA in my games, but same -- never had a player ask to use any UA material. I had a ranger in the game we ended on Saturday who started as the original hunter archetype and let him change to the revised hunter conclave after showing it to him.

I have a friend coming back from a year abroad in Thailand soon, he mentioned wanting to play a mystic before he left.

Miniman

@CTWind My biggest problem with both favored souls is just that they don't feel even vaguely favored soul-ish.

The sorcerer, and their spell list, just don't match the idea of the class.

LegendaryDude

My recollection of Favored Soul from 3.5 is a spontaneous casting cleric class.

BESW

04:08

What is the flavour of a favoured soul?

LegendaryDude

20 secs ago, by LegendaryDude

My recollection of Favored Soul from 3.5 is a spontaneous casting cleric class.

BESW

...flavoured soul. Hm.

trogdor

lol

Skyler

@BESW heheh

trogdor

@BESW those really shouldn't have flavors

Joel Harmon

04:09

@BESW spontaneously gifted divine abilities

rather than solicited (cleric prayers)

Miniman

@BESW Although it's a total mismatch mechanics-wise, my favorite favored soul is Rincewind from Discworld.

Skyler

i did a 1 level dip in the original favoured soul before and it is absolutely ridiculous in balance

CTWind

@CTWind (Main reason I say this is because I'm bouncing around a homebrew Sorc subclass idea that'd add 2 known spells, which doesn't feel like overkill to me?)

Miniman

@CTWind I think they could definitely use more, yeah.

Skyler

it was actually with the shade character in the campaign im now DMing

Miniman

04:11

@Miniman He really epitomizes that being a favored soul isn't a choice you make, and it's not necessarily a good thing.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman I'd never have considered him a favored soul

but it does kinda make sense

(when viewed through octarine-tinted glasses)

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Just gotta switch "series of ludicrous coincidences conspiring to keep him alive" with "spellcasting" to make it fit properly.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman I was approaching it from the "vessel of divine-ish knowledge"

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Hmmm, I never thought about that. I was talking about him being a favored soul of the Lady.

BESW

I'm going to assume flavoured souls are the descendants of a group of humanoids bred by illithid gourmets.

2

Skyler

04:16

Pick war domain: 4 cantrips, 4 spells (Shield, Chromatic Orb, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith), 5 bonus action melee attacks a day

Joel Harmon

@BESW that could certainly add spice to your worldbuilding

@Miniman Could be. I just first thought of the spell so big it overflowed his brain.

Skyler

pick a melee attack cantrip so you never do regular weapon attacks if your class never gets extra attack, and then you get other variety too

Joel Harmon

Great. Now that I've thought about how long it's been since I've read Pratchett, I'm going to have to move his books onto my (already overflowing) to-read shelf

Miniman

@JoelHarmon Sorry.

Joel Harmon

There are worse problems to have.

Joel Harmon

04:31

5e folks: am I wrong in thinking the obvious answer to the dangerous knock out question is "impose disadvantage"?

Miniman

@JoelHarmon It's certainly an obvious answer.

But I think the answer the question needs to answer is "Why do you want your players to kill everything?"

Joel Harmon

04:52

I'm unconvinced, @Miniman. Seems the question is pretty clear: how do I tweak <mechanic> to make it harder?

social aspects like murderhoboism seem tangential

Also, your mind tricks failed on me. I went to pick out a Pratchett or two and couldn't decide between the ~30 I have, and gave up.

Miniman

You have a point there, but as it is any mechanic that makes it harder would be an acceptable answer. With more information about motive, it could be narrower.

For example, if he wants it to be harder in general but still doable when it's appropriate, that's gonna get different answers to just wanting it to be difficult.

Joel Harmon

yeah, but the only mechanic that makes it harder that isn't homebrew that I know of is disadvantage. Problem being I technically need a different answer before I pose a frame challenge to his homebrew qualifier.

Miniman

Hmmm.

Joel Harmon

other problem being I need to head out now. See you guys later!

Miniman

See ya!

CTWind

05:11

@JoelHarmon Could also just change the auto-knockout mechanic to the NPC always goes to death saves (rather than autodying at 0)- then the target has to succeed on 3 to stay KO'd, or a party member has to take time to stabilize them.

nitsua60

12:06

@JoelHarmon Hogfather. When in doubt, Hogfather.

Adam

14:15

Perhaps a better question is, "Why does KOing need to be harder than killing?"

The question currently sort of reads like "Back in my day it didn't work that way, and I don't like it! How do I make it like the good ol' days?" To which the best reply is "Are you sure you don't want to play AD&D 2e instead of a more modern edition?"

My dad was like that for a while anyway. He kept pointing out all the differences between 5e and AD&D 1e and was constantly saying how 5e's rules were weird and he didn't like them. And no matter how much I tried, I just couldn't get him to admit that he'd rather play 1e. It wasn't until a few months later when I finally got him to think of them as two different games that he started enjoying 5e a lot more.

LegendaryDude

@Adam Another good question would be, "Why do your NPCs/monsters continue fighting when they know they're destined to lose?"

At some point a battle becomes one-sided

Unless they're lunatics, at least some of the enemy ought to surrender, right?

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Or run. Oh, that's right, you can't retreat in 5e.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 You can't?

nitsua60

Try. You'll get slaughtered!

LegendaryDude

Oh you mean because of movement speed.

nitsua60

14:21

And opportunity attacks.

You can disengage and move, and your opponent can move and attack.

Or you can eat the OA and dash, and your opponent can dash and make you eat the next OA.

LegendaryDude

Yeah.

My players certainly wouldn't let a lone baddie get away, no matter how insignificant he is.

nitsua60

If you're willing to leave your slowest party-member to be slaughtered, then you can get away.

Adam

@nitsua60 Tell that to Lareth the Beautiful, who managed to evade capture during battle twice from my group.

My guess is that DMs figure you'll just ultimately kill the monsters anyway, and the mechanics of rolling dice and attacking are either easier or more fun for the DM to execute than trying to roleplay an interrogation

LegendaryDude

And they always rationalize it as, "What if he comes back with more?"

nitsua60

@Adam How'd Lareth manage that?

Adam

14:25

A fairly generous use of spellcasting mostly. One time we came across him, he used a very powerful sanctuary spell and several dashes to avoid getting hurt. Then he got on a horse and left.

The second time, he brainwashed our cleric super hard core, effectively removing the biggest threat to his movement

I'll agree that Melee based creatures have a difficult time getting away, but creatures at a reasonable range, as well as magic users, have a much easier time retreating.

LegendaryDude

14:45

@Adam There are times where the questions might be different but the answers suggest that they might still be duplicates, if the answers on one question also answer the other question.

This is sort of an edge case and I can see cases for both it being duplicate and it not being a duplicate.

Adam

I get what you mean. I also looked up the stacks guidance on dupes and found this: stackoverflow.blog/2010/11/…

LegendaryDude

I'd say it shouldn't be flagged as a duplicate because the two answers on the linked question oppose each other diametrically.

And it doesn't help answer the root question at all; it will just create more confusion in the new question.

Adam

Agreed. I have been thoroughly convinced :)

LegendaryDude

15:12

@Adam Why did you delete your answer? As far as I am concerned, its perfectly valid.

I'd upvote it.

Adam

I thought about it again after posting it and decided that I really shouldn't be saying anything. I've only ever run one game, and have no experience with the content in the published adventures, so I shouldn't be making statements about them or their contents.

LegendaryDude

15:59

@Adam Ah, okay.

LegendaryDude

16:17

Am I missing something?

1

Q: Why choose Mass Suggestion over Suggestion?

The Warlock has limited high level spell slots (Mystic Arcanum: 1 spell slot of level 6, 7, 8 and 9) The spells for level 6 are: Arcane Gate Circle of Death Conjure Fey Create Undead Eyebite Flesh to Stone Mass Suggestion True Seeing Why would you want to take mass suggestion over the normal...

The answer seems so obvious to me. I don't understand the reason for the question.

Adam

Mass suggestion is a solid 4 spell levels higher than suggestion. If you are only suggesting one or two creatures, you could argue that it's a waste of a spell.

that's a total shot in the dark, I have absolutely no idea what they were thinking

Ladifas

@nitsua60 Given that you seemed interested in sandbox stuff earlier today, you might be interested in a little travel pace and encumbrance system I made a while back. I hope you'll forgive the self-promotion: reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5u3cwz/…

LegendaryDude

@Adam Also it is seeming a bit opinionated to me

It's entirely up to [general] you if you would choose mass suggestion over suggestion

Adam

Only in the fringe case of trying to suggest one creature. With one creature, you have to weigh whether or not the extra range, duration, and the removal of concentration is worth the sixth level spell slot, compared to the shorter range, duration and concentration of a 2nd level spell slot. With more than one target to suggest though, mass suggestion is strictly better in every way.

LegendaryDude

17:03

@Adam Yeah, I mean it's circumstantial but it is entirely your own opinion if you would want to choose mass suggestion

It's not a choice of casting it, it's a choice of learning it

Adam

Ah, yes. That is much more opinionated.

nitsua60

19:56

Wouldn't mind another 5e-hammer's eyes on this duplicate I created; it always feels a little sketchy to dupe-hammer something toward my own answer. (@Miniman @SevenSidedDie)

Adam

@nitsua60 I know I'm no hammer, but if the earlier question today (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95751/can-passive-and-active-perception-dcs-be-different) wasn't a duplicate, I'm not sure that the questions you link should be marked duplicates either.

Their answers are dupe-ish for sure, but people that are searching for "does a 0 damage attack count as a hit" may not be expecting to find the answer in "Does a lycanthrope need to deal damage to apply their curse"

nitsua60

Yeah, it certainly feels like an edge-case to me. I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone wise come along and say "no way, those aren't dupes" and de-link them, nor would I be surprised to hear someone come along and say "that's great--it broadens the searches that could lead querents to the correct answer."

Luckily, it's nothing that can't be undone, and there's a record of all of it.

LegendaryDude

It might be important to point out that the description for duplicates says "This question already has an answer here"

Not "This question already exists here"

So if an answer to an old question answers a new question, the new question is in all likelihood a dupe

7 mins ago, by Adam

@nitsua60 I know I'm no hammer, but if the earlier question today (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/95751/can-passive-and-active-perception-dcs-be-different) wasn't a duplicate, I'm not sure that the questions you link should be marked duplicates either.

Their answers are dupe-ish for sure, but people that are searching for "does a 0 damage attack count as a hit" may not be expecting to find the answer in "Does a lycanthrope need to deal damage to apply their curse"

People searching for "does a 0 damage attack count as a hit" will find the closed as dupe question

And will go to the linked question, and find their answer

That's why we don't mind duplicate questions

@nitsua60 I'd say you're fine, if someone else comes along and decides it is clearly not a dupe it'll get re-opened and we'll have another answer that says roughly the same thing and the information has become all that more accessible, which I think is a good thing for the site.

Adam

20:12

I know this blog post is a bit old, and things might have changed since then, but this is why I'm okay with opening it up again.

stackoverflow.blog/2010/11/16/…

It's enough of a subtle variation that I think, from a user experience standpoint, it is worth it to just leave them both open.

LegendaryDude

Yeah, point 3 in that blog post is what I'm trying to say:
"What we want is on the order of 4 or 5 similar-but-not-quite-the-same duplicates to cover all possible search terms and common permutations of the question. It is also OK for these duplicates to have their own answers so people who find them don’t have to click yet again to get to a good answer."

It makes the information easier to find which means people will come here looking for it.

Most questions I have about RPGs, when I ask them on Google, return a first result of RPG.SE. That's what we want. More duplicates means more variations of wordings on questions which means more Google links which means more visits which means greater diversity of minds on the site which results in greater quality content.

Adam

Yes, but what I'm saying is that it seems unnecessary to mark that one question as a duplicate of the other, since the question has enough variation to not be clear that the answer to one really is the answer to the other, it helps keep users from having to click multiple times to get to an accepted answer.

Anyway, that's just my reasoning for my vote. The community will do its thing and people will get the information one way or the other :)

LegendaryDude

20:31

@Adam To that, I say the question closed as a duplicate does have two answers of its own (which is also something that blog post talks about). ;)

nitsua60

@LegendaryDude Or just read the correct answer(s) on the closed one. Either way, they get the answer, but no new answers come in on the closed one.

LegendaryDude

@nitsua60 Yep, I wrote that before I realized it had answers (even though I knew it had answers...).

Adam

It still feels weird to me that the site is basically saying "The community has determined that the correct answer to 'Do 0 damage attacks still count as hits' is 'lycanthropes only have to hit you to curse you'"

Does it lead to the same conclusion, yes. But one is a specific case of the other. We just happened to get the specific case before the general case.

LegendaryDude

21:10

@Adam I'm pretty sure there's a meta on exactly that topic.

Adam

It wouldn't surprise me! I'll take a look around for it when I have a bit more free time

nitsua60

@Adam I think of it as the community saying: "hey software! There's a content-linkage here you should know about."

VtC system

Richard Ward

21:27

@nitsua60 Is that link going where you think it does? It goes to a question about warlock builds.

Adam

It also looks like it has a system tag :p

Richard Ward

That too.

For what it's worth, I'd say that the questions are different enough that the dupe might be confusing. The closed question asks "is this a hit?" (answer: yes) and the open one asks "is damage required?" (answer: no, you just need to hit). But the closed one doesn't spell out what 'a hit' means.

But I don't really have strong feelings either way.

Oh, and for those wondering why I'm chiming in - the closed one is my question. Chat is using my old display name for some reason.

nitsua60

21:50

@RichardWard Didn't when I dropped the comment and link. Looks fine now.

LegendaryDude

@RichardWard That's because chat and main site use different profiles

You need to update your chat profile separately

Richard Ward

22:06

Ah, right.

I've already changed the parent profile to the RPG.SE one, which should have the right name, but it doesn't seem to have had any effect. Do I need to log out/in, or am I just doing it wrong?

LegendaryDude

Might be cached on chat.

shouldiblamecaching.com

GreySage

@LegendaryDude As a software dev, I use that all the time.

SirTechSpec

22:43

Hey gang, what's new?

I've been absent for a while (big work project is killing me), but I just had to stop in and remind myself what a nice little community we have here.

Every so often, I make the mistake of commenting on a style question in a DND FB group. The current one is "How can I punish my PC's in-game for chatting more than I want at the table?" and the ratio of (rather grisly) answers to frame challenges is, to me, disheartening.

Miniman

22:56

@Ladifas It really bugs me that the reddit for homebrew material is titled "Unearthed Arcana" - you wouldn't have thought anyone could mistake it as official, but I had someone make that exact mistake just yesterday.

Shalvenay

23:11

@SirTechSpec yeah -- it's scary disheartening how little most of the RPG world knows about the stuff we know here

LegendaryDude

23:32

@GreySage As a devops engineer who is often on the receiving end of blame that should be directed at the software devs, I too use it all the time. :P

Adeptus

23:44

@SirTechSpec When my players are talking too much, I (jokingly) say "Rocks fall, you all die". Gets their attention ;)

3

GreySage

Random question: What determines what shows up in the 'starred' list on the right?

Miniman

@Adeptus I tend to roll some dice - for some reason, they immediately all look at me expectantly.

@GreySage If you hover over a chat message, there's a little star on the right. If you click it, you've starred that message, and it'll show up in the star bar.

It's basically like favoriting it.

trogdor

and the number next to it,.... like right up there, is how many people have done that

Miniman

As new messages get starred, they push older starred messages out, but depending how many stars they both have, an older message can get priority over a newer one.

The message at the top of the star bar, with the hollow star, is one the room owner (BESW) has pinned, fixing it in place until he decides to remove it.

nitsua60

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Q: How does the repositioning of starred messages work?

I just starred an already-starred message over at RPG General Chat, and the message moved up by four spaces. Normally, I only see two or three spaces, but it was underneath a pile of highly-starred messages. This has confused me for some time; a good portion of me expects some linear algorithm, ...

support chat chat-stars

GreySage

23:53

Cool

nitsua60

@Miniman OTOH, it is a nice hearkening back to the origin of the first (1e) Unearthed Arcana, which was largely a collection of homebrewed-by-correspondence material.

Miniman

@nitsua60 [grumblegrumblegrumble]

trogdor

@nitsua60 but there is an official book called that now

nitsua60

@trogdor There are a couple of them. And any number of columns/articles. Madness!

trogdor

yes, so I can see how someone would be confused by that title

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