TRPG General Chat

Simon Gill

01:21

I seem to have lost a handful of rep too.

Mostly from disappeared upvotes on that Word of Life question. Bah.

BESW

Aw.

Possibly because "anything happening when something else happens is happening during the same time frame as that something else" is a little hard to parse.

Simon Gill

And a random downvote out of nowhere too :/

Could be.

doppelgreener

Yes, the answer is less clear than it could be.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Welcome back!

doppelgreener

Whilst it's a good answer, it sort of resembles the answers people tend to give when they're not really sure what the answer is at all.

@BESW Hi!

So maybe that leaves people expecting they won't get much from it, and then it being unclear combines with that in a lovely way.

Simon Gill

01:32

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks Jon.

doppelgreener

@Simon No worries

BESW

@SimonGill I ran a mini FATE conflict for two players last night!

[burbles]

Simon Gill

@BESW Did it break you slightly? :P

BESW

Only a little.

We loved it.

Gunslinging Clown and Martial Mime vs Mafia Hitman in a roadside bar.

Simon Gill

Excellent! This is what we like to hear :D

BESW

01:46

We had aspects like I See in Black and White, Two Big Left Feet, Wet Face, and Can't Hit A Clown.

The clown's gun skill was used exclusively for fluid-based weaponry. Squirt flower and a water blaster loaded with bleach (which ruined the hitman's suit, making his assessed "The Clothes Made the Man" aspect invokable).

Simon Gill

Who had the Can't Hit A Clown aspect?

BESW

The Clown maneuvered with Performance to place it on the hitman.

Simon Gill

@BESW Brilliant. That's clever play.

BESW

After the hitman missed a couple times, the clown did an exaggerated impression of him for the cowering bar patrons.

We also had the clown realize that he couldn't shoot through the bar's windows because he was using water guns instead of bullets, so he declared the bar's windows to be open.

(To avoid the penalty for taking a supplemental to open them himself.)

The mime unplugged the jukebox to remove the bar's Loud aspect, so it would be harder to invoke his Not So Loud trouble.

Simon Gill

Have you seen the question about creativity in D&D 4 yet?

BESW

01:50

@SimonGill Hooorf, yes.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

okay, work begging for done

dns changes have propagated

Simon Gill

@BESW Horrible question isn't it? Almost "How do you break an old-school player and retrain them into my style?".

BESW

There are a lot of ways to approach it

Because she doesn't want to discourage that creativity.

She's hoping the player can adjust the creativity to a less mechanical bent.

Simon Gill

@BESW Is it really mechanical creativity? It seems to be a lack of mechanical thinking - restrained as flavour text, rather than as a mechanical effect that needs dealing with a creative mechanical solution.

BESW

The player sees a mechanical effect and associates the effect with the item used to achieve it.

In 4e, that's a pretty big fallacy.

Simon Gill

01:58

@BESW Definitely. Whereas 2E and earlier - that is the game.

Magician

...is it bad that I looked at that question and went "ah, I have a post that'd fit it, as much as 4e can at all"?

BESW

The question is, I think, framed improperly.

It's not about creativity, it's about system transition

Magician

@BESW It is, but the asker doesn't know it

BESW

So the answer has to start there.

Simon Gill

@Magician And no, it's not bad at all Magician. Gives you a boost at writing a useful answer ;)

BESW

02:04

I'm trying to come up with an answer.

> 4e is a very different system and that's okay, but it's not for everyone. There's a gap between the player and the system and your job as GM is to help facilitate bridging that gap. Your goal in this should not be to make the player conform to the system, but to help the player understand the system's approach enough to decide if the system is one she wants to play in.

Thoughts, please?

(I'm heading it "This is a transition issue, not a creativity issue.")

Simon Gill

It's a good start.

I think pointing out that her player doesn't need to lose the creativity (because that's what the gm cares about) in the transition might be helpful too.

BESW

Yeha.

Magician

@SimonGill 4e does not allow creativity on the battlefield, though.

LitheOhm

yay for the return of the xvart ^_^

haven't seen those since Baldur's Gate

Simon Gill

@LitheOhm Huh? Where have those pesky little buggers popped up now?

LitheOhm

02:12

xivorts.

Xvart

A xvart is small fictional humanoid creature found in the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game. Publication history The svart was created by Cricky Hitchcock, and first appeared in White Dwarf #9 (October 1978). The xvart first appeared in the first edition in the original Fiend Folio (1981). The module The Sentinel (1983) details an xvart lair. In the article "Hey, Wanna Be a Kobold?" by Joseph Clay in Dragon #141 (January 1989), kobolds, xvarts, goblins, and orcs were presented as player character races along with two new character classes the "Shaman" and the "Witch Doctor". ...

in 4e, they are now called xivorts.

Simon Gill

@LitheOhm Ah.

BESW

@LitheOhm > Restrained
The creature can’t move, unless it teleports. It can’t even be pulled, pushed, or slid.
The creature takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
The creature grants combat advantage.

LitheOhm

maybe the best part of the game: Finding the xvart colony and slaughtering every last one.

@BESW buggy

Simon Gill

@Magician Not the improvised weapon kind, certainly. Is there really no environmental creativity allowed at all?

LitheOhm

thank you for clarifying that for me

BESW

02:14

In 4e, effects are standardized.

Simon Gill

@LitheOhm But that doesn't stop them coming!

LitheOhm

@SimonGill not at all. And the big brown bear they sick on you even turns to attack them first

BESW

[cough]

Improvised Weapons
Sometimes an attacker doesn’t have a proper weapon available and makes do with something else. The attacker might punch or head-butt a foe, smash a chair over the foe’s head, hurl a rock at it, or clobber it with a tankard.
Unless the Dungeon Master says otherwise, an improvised weapon has the statistics noted here.

(I'm not copypasting the chart.)

LitheOhm

easy enough

so others cannot take and use the xivort nets?

Magician

But that's not creativity, that's... rocks.

BESW

02:15

From the answer I'm crafting:

LitheOhm

yeah

BESW

> ## It's not the net that's special, it's the person throwing it.
4e has feats and powers and magic enchantments which could let a PC mimic that power's effect. The net is probably the *least* important part of the equation; in 4e items are important and necessary but rarely definitive.

LitheOhm

@BESW seems cohesive

the little blue men are just really good Western-style wranglers, then?

BESW

Pretty much.

doppelgreener

@BESW Thanks for pointing that out. That's the crux of it.

Magician

02:20

aaand commented with a link. my job here is done.

BESW

> In earlier D&D editions, the player's line of reasoning would be absolutely correct: while a player has ability, most often it is the item the player wields which defines the effects the item can achieve. This was a major theme of D&D for a long time: the item makes the hero.

Is this true?

Magician

I think it's not so much about items, as it is about using environment and dirty tricks to win, because you have 3 hp and xvarts are scary. You needed all that. In 4e characters don't need anything

Their power and capabilities are contained within the character sheet

BESW

Hmm. good point.

[scribbles]

Magician

(As I've blogged. sigh. I've spent too much time thinking about 4e...)

BESW

@Magician Faaaaaaate.

Magician

02:27

@BESW tremulus first

Here's a question. Does Fate Core lend itself to medium-length campaigns? 6-months plus? Is there enough depths in character advancement for it?

BESW

I suspect so.

The end of every scenario (adventure) is basically a level-up, and the end of every subsection of a scenario is a mini level-up, and you get the Fate equivalent of retraining at the end of every session.

So mechanically it's dynamic and has granular advancement.

If you mean whether it has enough options to support continued level-up, one of the major philosophy changes in FATE is that there aren't many developer-made stunts and powers: you're expected to make your own, collaboratively with the group.

So if you're running out of pre-made stunts you want to take, you whip up your own that go in the direction you want.

You can build elaborate stunt trees that build on each other to give you a great deal of utility in one small area, or you can design a wide variety of stunts that cover many different facets of the game.

Magician

I see. I suspect Fate will be something I actually run a campaign in, not just a one-off to learn the system and steal from it

BESW

You know how in 4e GMs like us very quickly abandon the pre-made monsters and set off across the vast uncharted wilderness of custom monster powers?

FATE comes out upfront and says both GMs and players should do that, as often and vigorously as they want.

Simon Gill

@BESW It's a helpful philosophy. Important enough that there is an entire book of toolkits for helping you do that on the schedule.

Magician

@BESW That does sound cool. A lot of things I've read about Fate sound cool. I'm just worried I'll hate it due to lack of crunch or something stupid like that... Ah well. I'll find out soon enough.

BESW

02:36

And because of the Fate point system and aspects, so long as the group is trying to adhere to the guidelines when making stunts, the system's got enough fudge factor that it'll be hard to make something totally imbalanced without noticing right quick.

@Magician You might want to start with DFRPG, in that case.

It's a bit crunchier than the regular FATE system, largely because it adds a magic system that needs a bit more control built into it.

Magician

What about the 5 magic systems in the kickstarter toolkit?

BESW

I haven't looked at them very hard yet, trying not to train myself out of DFRPG before I'm familiar with it. @SimonGill might be able to contribute.

Simon Gill

@Magician They are a bit looser than DFRPG.

Just digging back into the draft, I didn't exactly study it when it turned up.

The big stuff is that there is a set of design guidelines for how to build the magic for your game - what the Tone, Cost, Availability and Source are and how they affect the game.

Magician

Build your own magic system? Intriguing. Very intriguing.

BESW

@Magician For someone who spends as much time as you do creating new mechanics and subsystems and applying existing mechanics in new ways, I think FATE could be very alluring.

Simon Gill

02:44

@Magician Yeah, it's the philosophy behind the entire game. Here's the Fractal, here's how some examples, and here's how you build the specific game you and your players want to play.

@IsaiahThorne Hi Isaiah :)

BESW

@IsaiahThorne Yawp!

I'm not sure if I'm delving too deeply into 4e philosophy with this answer....

Isaiah Thorne

Hey there Simon and BESW. Took me a little while to figure out how to get here even though it is pretty straight forward, but oh well. :)

BESW

@IsaiahThorne I took about a month to venture over here, myself.

I'd like to thank you for being so patient with us answering questions you aren't asking.

Isaiah Thorne

I'd like to thank you guys for putting up with me, lol.

I'm no expert at this stuff, and I clearly have a bit to learn about the etiquette around here, but I'll get the hang of it at some point I am sure.

Simon Gill

@IsaiahThorne It is a little different to forums, so it can be hard to learn.

Lord_Gareth

02:49

@IsaiahThorne Hey, no worries. I'm still chanting the mantra you'll find on the right-hand side of the screen w/r/t screaming at stupid people.

BESW

@IsaiahThorne Everybody's walking somewhere along the same path you are, no worries.

Bwah! Melon beat me to an answer... but I'm not sure it's really going to help.

Lord_Gareth

I really wish people would stop complaining when we answer, "How do I optimize this monk?" with "Kill him and raise the corpse as a wraith." No, it's not pretty, but it's pretty accurate.

Isaiah Thorne

Thanks for the support guys. I don't see the mantra Lord_Garet. Sorry man.

Nevermind

I found it, LOL

BESW

@Lord_Gareth It's also entirely antithetical to the spirit of the question.

Isaiah Thorne

I know subjective questions are not allowed where I posted the other two questions, but would they be welcome in chat or is that best for private chat?

Simon Gill

02:52

@BESW His answer is one answer, but it will change the game.

@IsaiahThorne There is no private chat - only public. But of course subjective questions and in depth discussions are valid here.

BESW

@IsaiahThorne Subjective questions are allowed, but they've gotta be approached cautiously so the answers can be helpful.

@SimonGill Change the game?

Simon Gill

@BESW By allowing creativity to create powers in play - that will have an effect on the game and change the flavor of it.

Isaiah Thorne

Hmmm, I'll do the best I can, let me know how to make my question better. In case you haven't noticed or don't know, I am wordy so I apologize in advance.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I dunno, it at least involves something that was the Monk at some point. "Kill him and roll his Swordsage older brother," is a better answer but with the wraith thing you get angst, y'know? :p

BESW

@Lord_Gareth [snerk] The Fairy Nuff imagines a monk-wraith in a cheap black trenchcoat.

Isaiah Thorne

02:57

In the Dresden Files, I am trying to create a character type that is playable if you're running a submerged game. I think that is the 10 refresh 35 skill one... The character is a field agent/investigator for a paranormal strike team and they use a drug to help level the playing field. It's addictive and I figured I would give them a modified Hunger stress track to show addiction stress...

BESW

That sounds cool.

Isaiah Thorne

...I am trying to figure out a way to make this character viable, but not overpowered as the drug would give them supernatural abilities and I want the addiction to work whether they use their powers or not, but not be so debilitating to where playing them wouldn't be worth it.

Simon Gill

How important is Addiction to your game?

- and will there be more than one character using it?

Isaiah Thorne

It would be an important aspect to this particular character. I hope that answered your question Simon, but I'll keep an open mind to any suggestion.

BESW

Simplest, easiest way: give him a High Concept related to the addiction, and let that justify taking supernatural powers. Then compel the heck out of his high concept.

Isaiah Thorne

02:59

I am not sure. I think at least two people are interested in playing as this type of character.

Simon Gill

@BESW That's what I was just about to say.

BESW

If you'd rather have a Hunger-ish stress track, we can give suggestions but in FATE inventing a new mechanic is something the group has to do together at the table.

Simon Gill

@IsaiahThorne This is why I asked if it was going to affect more than one of your players. If it's only one, making a new stress track may be more effort than it's worth but if they are all affected then that justifies the work.

@BESW Not to say you can't write a proposal beforehand and take it to the group of course.

Isaiah Thorne

I see.

BESW

@SimonGill Aye, indeed.

(I'd just like to say I love this concept, by the way.)

Simon Gill

03:03

@IsaiahThorne At first blush though, these characters are now supernatural, thanks to the drug. This means that you are effectively building a new template similar to the White Court Vampire.

Isaiah Thorne

Thanks BESW and thank you both for taking the time to answer that question.

Exactly.

The drug was actually created by analysis of the White Court Vampire.

BESW

I'm getting strong Initiative vibes.

Isaiah Thorne

This made sense to me given that of the Vampire courts, they seem the closest to human so it seemed to make sense to me that they would have used them as a base in creating this serum.

BESW

Hmmmm.

Okay, thinking out loud.

Isaiah Thorne

But while I understand the hunger stress track, I felt these guys needed a little something different. Like whether they actively use it or not, it's like it courses through them anyway so they are on all the time so to speak... but if they had to roll stress all the time, no one would want to play as them me thinks.

BESW

03:06

If you're going to use a hunger track, you need something that triggers the hunger. The example is power usage, but that's not where you want to go with it.

So the goal here is to identify something else that triggers hunger, preferably an active choice on the part of the player to make it dynamic and interactive.

Isaiah Thorne

Technically... it would be time. At least that is how I thought of it initially.

BESW

Yeah, that's.... logical but not interesting. And FATE operates on interesting.

Isaiah Thorne

What would you suggest?

Maybe taking stress of any kind?

Or taking certain kinds of stress like physical?

BESW

I'm pretty new to FATE myself, but Simon's got more experience. Is there a timelike voluntary mechanic we could pull off of?

Lord_Gareth

Okay @BESW and/or @BrianBallsun-Stanton, opinion time - is it worth the effort to do a Q&A entitled "Why are Monks Sub-Par" so I can just start linking that to all these monk questions?

BESW

03:09

What about taking consequences?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Lord_Gareth don't we have one?

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Why do I get lumped in with mods?

Lord_Gareth

@BrianBallsun-Stanton No, we have a "how do I optimize monks?" thread that's full of incredibly shoddy information and passive-aggressive sniping from Zach and co.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Lord_Gareth Make sure you have standing and that it's asking for objective responses. This is something that is.... going to get messy unless there's a very very high standard of evidence.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Because I trust and respect your knowledge and maturity.

BESW

03:10

@Lord_Gareth [blush]

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

So objective only, please. But so long as you have standing and make the questionable answerable with objective responses, sure.

Lord_Gareth

0

A: How to make the best of a monk?

There are no ways to make the best of this character, only ways to lessen the pain. If you're cool with accepting that, then let's talk. Of the options you mentioned, Sacred Fist is going to end up being the best for you, though frankly you're entering heinously late and are going to be playing ...

In any event dropped that in the other monk thread

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW you have The Ear of the Mods. We'd like it back, please.

Isaiah Thorne

You're not a mod BESW?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

oh, hey @IsaiahThorne Glad to see you're in chat.

BESW

03:11

@IsaiahThorne Not the last time I checked.

Isaiah Thorne

Hey Brian, and thank you.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton hums [I Hold Your Hand In Mine]

Simon Gill

@BESW hmmm, there's no timelike mechanic that I can think of. There's an assumption that things keep ticking over unless something disrupts it. So, these guys would be getting regular doses of their drug most of the time.

Isaiah Thorne

I thought you were too.

BESW

I'm just talkative and opinionated.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

03:13

@IsaiahThorne We encourage the community to take care of itself. Mods are the option of second-last resort. @BESW is a good symptom of a growing community.

Lord_Gareth

@BrianBallsun-Stanton If by that response you mean, "Please do not wax poetic about fluff problems with Monk," I didn't intend to. Monk manages to be the single-most insulting class in 3.5 no matter how you fluff it.

Isaiah Thorne

Yes Simon. They would. They would probably carry maybe two or three injections with them on the field, but the fun that could be had if they couldn't return to base and they had run out of serum because they're in the middle of a fight. Mwahaha!

But in short, yes.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Lord_Gareth No.

BESW

Okay, this is a wild idea, but bear with me.

A hunger stress track that must be compelled.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

I encourage you to workshop the question here, because it will require real framing to avoid the "It's all about how you play it." as well as the "you're playing the game wrong"

Thus, step 1 is to restrict it to not even good-subjective, but purely objective.

Step 2 is to make your assumptions and rules of answer acceptance very clear.

BESW

03:14

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Could you link us to the explanations of standing, subjective/objective, and framing, please?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

You're not interested in x,y,z. You're presuming rules as such, you're presuming this, etc..

@BESW urrr.

Lord_Gareth

Suddenly I'm glad I already did the, "How can I play monsters right?" question since a whole lot of the suck on Monk comes from things like monsters with flight actually bothering to fly, spellcasting monsters using their spells, etc, etc, etc.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW Yep. I could.

BESW

because I have an awful time tracking them down.

Simon Gill

@IsaiahThorne Is that the thing you want to focus on - the risk of going nova vs. letting something big get away?

BESW

03:15

Okay, one of these conversations needs to jump to another room.

Isaiah Thorne

I don't mind going to another room, I just don't know how.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Standing, Good Subjective, Framing Problem

5

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Thanks.

Isaiah Thorne

@Simon, yes.

BESW

Hunger tracks

as a model for drug addiction

Simon Gill

03:17

@BESW Danke.

Isaiah Thorne

@BESW, do you mind explaining the compel idea in a bit more detail?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Actually, Gareth, let's take your thing to another room, too.

Lord_Gareth

'Kaykay

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Designing good Questions for the RPG …

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Wouldn't mind having you in the question room if you're up for it

BESW

04:27

@SimonGill I think that "high concept justifying taking powers, then compelling the hay out of the high concept" would result in the same net game impact as the power solution we came up with.

Simon Gill

With less bookkeeping too.

BESW

Yes.

Because on the one side it's "You get compelled a lot, so if you take the compels you get a lot of Fate to spend."

And on the other it's "You get a lot of Fate to spend, and if you use it then you get auto-compelled a lot."

But I suspect that Isaiah is going to be happier with more bookkeeping and less whim, so... mechanical equivalent, ho!

Again, FATE wins because it can accomodate the level of crunch the players want.

Simon Gill

@BESW Definitely. Gotta love it for that.

BESW

04:59

@EugeneRyabtsev Hi!

Eugene Ryabtsev

Hello!

mxyzplk

05:18

@Lord_Gareth I would suggest contributing to the existing question (answer, edit, comment) than spawning another that will get closed as duplicate. "I don't like the existing one" is not actually a reason to justify a duplicate on SEs.

BESW

@mxyzplk I think Brian's been working with him to produce a non-identical question.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@mxyzplk we've worked out what I think is an original question

BESW

The issue isn't so much that he doesn't like that question, as that he wants to answer a different one and has realized it's inappropriate to shoehorn his answer into the existing question.

mxyzplk

Yeah, I looked at the other room, it still sounds like "same question I just don't like the other answers" to me.

BESW

The original question was "how to optimize a monk?"

That is no place for the discussion of what a monk is and is not that Gareth thinks will be valuable to the site, if for no other reason than providing a dumping ground for those answers instead of having them muddy the waters on related posts.

mxyzplk

05:24

Yeah, or everyone wants can just post "what's a monk good for? Nothing! Mmwah hah haaa" into chat once a day to get it out of their system.

BESW

In my personal opinion, the valuable question at the core of it is one of how to address the core philosophical camps, and The Monk Thing is just a symptom of that confusion.

mxyzplk

But, will address whatever question that gets opened on its own merits

Gamist/CharOp vs sim/immersive you mean?

BESW

There's got to be *some*way to get "People don't all play 3.5 the same way" into the air without turning it into a value judgement.

@mxyzplk Very simplistically put, yes.

mxyzplk

That's fine, has nothing to do with monks

Not really sure it's a question, more like a blog post

BESW

I know.

But it's the heart of the monk problem.

I'm not saying I have any idea how to address it, but I do know that trying to address the monk problem without addressing the idea that the 3.5 community is a quagmire of misunderstandings and false dichotemies is never going to do anything but fan the flames.

mxyzplk

05:28

People need to not be uncomfortable with answers to a question that come from different playstyles. That is desirable, it's one of the points of the crowdsourced nature of a SE. If you don't like the stance an answer comes from - don't upvote it. Making it more complicated is a mistake.

BESW

Agreed! Only through the clashing of opinions can the truth be uncovered.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW ::twitch::

I will get out Kuhn and start quoting, you know.

BESW

And I love SE because its underlying idea is to provide a constructive and civil forum for ideas to clash instead of people.

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Are you implying that incommensurable paradigms are also inherently antithetical?

Simon Gill

@BESW Big Words Small Eyes. More Coffee Time.

BESW

All I'm saying is that the monk argument is running aground on a twofold failure: first to recognize that multiple paradigms exist, and second to accept that multiplicity of paradigm does not imply the need for value judgement.

Brian's approach of trying to explicitly define the paradigm in which the question is being framed is a good one for this instance, as it attempts to anticipate the first shoal. Unfortunately it may wind up grinding against the second shoal even harder as a result.

I'm very interested to see what happens. The only way to learn is to make an action based on the information we have, reflect on the results of that action, and take new action based on the new information.

mxyzplk

06:05

@BESW I will, however, note the guidance already in the site faq on the subject.

FAQ: "There are many different tastes in games and different kinds of playstyle. All styles are welcome here, but attacking others' styles as wrong is not. As a rule, answer questions in the style they were asked - telling someone "they are playing wrong" is usually unwelcome and not constructive."

BESW

@mxyzplk yeah. I think there may be some work necessary to make that possible, because people are having a hard time recognizing that such vastly different playstyles even exist within a single system.

mxyzplk

Brian and I have just gotten done discussing that at length and agreeing on an approach. I will say that I am not sure that anyone doesn't recognize the other playstyle exists, they just don't like that it does.

BESW

To the minds of many here, it's akin to advising someone that trying to get a Toon experience using the Don't Rest Your Head rules probably isn't going to work.

mxyzplk

If anyone honestly doesn't realize that the (Gamist/CharOp) or (Sim/Immersion) approach exists, then a quick explanation of its existence here in chat should clear that up. Now once people start insisting on the 'right" approach for a game... See FAQ. Expect deletions where activity is contrary to it.

BESW

Aye.

BESW

06:26

I'd argue that antagonism about the many levels of adherence to or disregard for RAW, RAI, and houserule/homebrew probably fall into that category too.

mxyzplk

Yep.

It is really pretty simple. Answer a question based on your own opinion and playstyle, conforming to Good Subjective, Bad Subjective. Others will answer according to theirs. Vote answers you like up. Comment on other answers only to get clarification or improve them.

If you answered X, and someone else answers Y - if you comment "no, X!" on Y it will get flagged/deleted. Answer, trust the SE system and crowdsourced voting. Any getting bent out of shape beyond that is probably off topic for the site. Feel free and come to chat and say "I hate X!" and argue with others about it where it can be safely ignored by the well behaved masses.

And when in doubt, reread the faq, all this is pretty well covered therein.

And enjoy!

BESW

Then I respectfully request, as someone who's been on the receiving end of it several times in the past, that you take a moment to reflect on your own participation in the comments, especially as regards to defending the rights of players to disregard RAW.

mxyzplk

Flag anything you don't like.

BESW

I have. I'm the guy you called a shmoo (which I still think is awesome) in December.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, honest. It's not skin off my nose.

But when a mod is saying things like "you don't have the CPU to GM," it's hard to expect the masses to respond well.

mxyzplk

Sure. It's why we have lots of folks (besides diamond mods even) that can edit/delete comments. Mods here have absolutely zero obligation to not have their own opinions and state them within the site rules like everyone else.

BESW

06:38

And I'm very aware that you separate your mod duties from your participation as a member of the site, but others can't tell the difference.

mxyzplk

I will note that comment is on my answer.

That's, to be blunt, their problem.

This has been well discussed among the greater body of SE mods. Mods can and are expected to participate in the site as users as well.

BESW

I'm cool with that.

mxyzplk

In fact, most diamond mods got that way on the strength of their participation in the site/rep gained thereby.

We all see what each other are doing, and talk to each other if we think mod activities are being performed non-objectively.

BESW

And I'm very sympathetic to your aversion to RAW adherence. I'm just seeing a little disconnect.

mxyzplk

Flag any inappropriate comments by anyone including a mod and they will be reviewed by everyone with the rep to do so.

Do not expect mods (or anyone) to not strongly advocate for their own opinion/playstyle in their own answers. That combined with community voting/editing is what makes SE work, it's a feature not a bug.

BESW

06:43

Right.

I'm just not sure if calling into question the brainpower of people who disagree with me is in line with the FAQ as you quoted it above.

So, duly noted. Flags are the way to go if I think it's an issue.

mxyzplk

Which is why you're welcome to flag it. In my opinion, that's a) not what it says and b) is on my answer (though perhaps it should be edited into the answer itself). Luckily you have recourse beyond just me.

In general, focus on your own answer and not being butthurt about other peoples' answers. That's the real way to not have this drama and conflict.

Lord_Gareth

Sweet mother of slime demons it saved my answer draft when I swapped computers. It's...it's so beautiful.

Simon Gill

@Lord_Gareth The SE site? Yeah, it's written by a very good programmer.

Lord_Gareth

I'm noticing!

mxyzplk

06:58

@BESW Here, I've edited the content of my comments on my own answer into my own answer.

BESW

Looks good!

It's a lot easier to make the point clear when there's room say exactly what's meant.

Your points about the limited usefulness of WBL and the value of an adaptive GM are important to the conversation.

(For the record, I'm one of the +1s on that answer and have been since the first edit.)

mxyzplk

Off to bed. I will also note that if anyone had a right to complain about that particular question, it's my answer that got a bunch of vengeance -1's from those who disagreed with it; those who disagree with WBL had the good grace to not downvote answers they simply disagree with. But I take my own advice I give others to "man up" and stick to your own answer. I think it's funny others are complaining like they're the ones getting dumped on for some reason.

BESW

You regained a LOT of those votes and converted them to ups when your edit provided examples and talked about the healthy social context in which abandoning WBL is most advantageous.

Goodnight.

Lord_Gareth

07:30

@BrianBallsun-Stanton rpg.stackexchange.com/q/22032/6172

BESW

[grinds teeth and doesn't edit for grammar]

Lord_Gareth

Hey, I copypasta'd the question we framed

Blame our illustrious moderator on that score.

BESW

Mmm. Copying drafts together frequently loses important connecting words or creates verb agreement artifacts.

Lord_Gareth

07:43

@mxyzplk My apologies on the wording there; however, in my defense it was suggested by another contributor, who was kind enough to write the draft for me.

BESW

I have no problem saying "I told you so."

Lord_Gareth

And now I crawl into bed

And sleep.

BESW

G'night.

Simon Gill

11:48

oooohhh, en garde stats. Yay :)

BESW

12:16

@Anaphory I'd like to acknowledge your hard work in answering a question I wasn't sure could be constructively answered.

Darn shame the question should probably still be closed.

mxyzplk

14:19

@Lord_Gareth Yeah, Brian and I talked about it at length but he went offline before you came back. No worries, it's what editing's for.

Novian

15:35

@BESW Does not explain how I got signed up for it in the first place. I Do not remember joining it. i suppose it does not matter but i dont like being confused.

Simon Gill

@Novian How are you logging in to this site? It's so easy to authenticate, you might have done it accidentally.

Novian

using my facebook,

and. hitting the log in button on the role playing games page i bookmarked.

On a Side note. I was playin 3.5 the other day and was looking for some spells, and i run across Minor Creation. then I ask Myself how is this usefull at all.

Simon Gill

@Novian Small mundane items, isn't it?

Novian

made out of nonliving vegetable matter yes

no spell componets tho

Simon Gill

Well, it's very circumstantial.

Novian

15:45

I Suppse if I wanted to concoct a elaborate plan to hit the badguy with a peace treaty trapped with Sepia Snake Sigil and told him to scan the paper for magic it might work.

Minor Creation is of the same school and subschool as Sepia Snake Sigil.

Simon Gill

It's of bob-all use in combat (without some serious creativity). Much more use in out of combat situations.

Novian

if you can claim belivably that the paper was made with magic it works.

who would hand a peace treaty to the bad guy in the middle of combat.]

much more of a pre battle suprise.

Hell Make the paper with minor creation and you dont have to lie.

he reads it and BOOM. hes stuck.

Simon Gill

Detect Magic will pick up the difference though. Minor Creation fades - SSS is active and will ping as stronger.

Anyway - very circumstantial spell.

Novian

hmm, welp theres a spell I suppose we would have to use to cover it up.

Nystuls magic aura.

Simon Gill

Reminds me of Sidereal Charms from Exalted.

Novian

15:50

?

Simon Gill

For example, the most powerful Dodge charm for Sidereals moves cities - they get very specific effects that the character has to manipulate the situation around, rather than the Lunar charms which are very general but don't have that specific power effect.

Novian

hmm actually Minor creation is of a higher spell level than SSS

Simon Gill

@Novian FAir enough then.

Novian

Welp Ill bet no one has done something as stupid in D&D as I have.

I Bought a Cursed Item on purpose.

Simon Gill

@Novian I'd happily lay that bet. There are a lot of people out there.

Novian

15:57

not only did I buy it on purpose I tried to get the enemy to duel me with it so my character could have revenge.

It didnt work, he just shot at me from his cliff.

So now i gotta wait till I can get access to remove curse.

otherwise I am slow.

Simon Gill

as slow as my thought process this evening?

Zachiel

16:18

@Novian minor creation can kill characters

just create a tank of any vegetal poison like... black lotus extract

after luring the intended enemy in the tank

he's doomed to auto-fail some saves

Simon Gill

@Zachiel If it does poison... then well, it does look pretty handy in at least some circumstances.

Zachiel

RAW, it does. And in such a quantity that you can really kill any non-immune character with it.

Simon Gill

17:00

blah, broken body clocks are not much fun.

BESW

22:58

@SimonGill I'm sorry, but "broken body clock" sounds like a novelty alarm modeled after the Broken Bat cover art.

The alarm is probably Bane saying things like "How much shall it take to break you? I shall relish finding out if you do not get out of bed soon."

Hunger tracks

Designing good Questions for the RPG …

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