TRPG General Chat - 2013-12-27 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

Then a game with a lot of social elements, which uses a system that doesn't have much support for social mechanics, must be nerve-wracking for you.

The current situation is... well, weird. There's a drow and a half-elf girl. The drow just married a character and is really possessive, the half-elf just discovered the other character choose the drow but wants to be still friends with him. And it ended up with the half-elf accusing the drow of fearing to lose him and the drow telling the half elf she never had chances because of her elven blood. I'm sitting aside, wishing they would stop arguing.

Tweets to Campaign By thinks more villains should be Dickensian orphans gone horribly wrong.

Behind the scenes that night: Tiny Tim kneeling in a pentagram, covered in animal entrails, chanting darkly, calling ghosts down on Scrooge.

Tweeted by saladinahmed on December 24, 2013 at 7:46 PM

hah XD

@Zachiel That sounds like a lot of fun for them, but not the kind of fun that others can join.

This is how you weigh an owl. http://t.co/NWVdDPny76

Tweeted by AnimalCaptions on December 26, 2013 at 10:01 PM

user image

Owlsome!

I can join. I can take sides and make an enemy and get lots of inspirations for developing this new game situation that will play almost by itself and get an exciting rivality with another character that's probably gonna end with her deciding I'm not worth her attention because of how weak I am.
But that means I can't become friend with that character and I want to be friends with everyone. Come on. My dream on D&D is to become friend with a gargoyle or something like that.

12:14 AM

And this is how to weigh an owlbear:

user image

@Zachiel Exactly. You could join their story, but you can't join their fun.

It's very selfish play.

If that kind of thing happened in my game, I'd call them on behavior that is likely to limit future fun instead of creating it.

@BESW You mean because they're about to roleplay the "Now we take turns picking who gets to keep which friend" part of a breakup/friend-schism?

@AlexP Yes. Because the players of the friends didn't get a chance to decide whether that was something they wanted.

Zach has two basic options: ignore it (so why is he playing?) or participate in a story he didn't sign up for, forced to make choices that limit the stories he'd wanted to tell.

Sure, it's realistic for a bad relationship to poison the lives of people nearby, but realism doesn't justify selfish choices.

I can totally imagine a LARP group doing this and having fun. Just, you know, LARPers who really know how to communicate and have good techniques/system in place. (I pick LARP because big shared-world context thing.)

@BESW Mmmmh nah. I can join their fun. All I do when I look them playing is telling myself "wow. I want to be in a tense situation where something is at stake and I have enemies" - but then I fear losing that situation

@AlexP Sure, a group that wants to do it can have fun with it.

12:28 AM

I managed to keep the two separated, arguing that nobody needed more enemies. The drow retreated after spitting some more venom but opened a door for something I was interested in

Yay 24 Int and logic reasoning

@Zachiel <obligatory yuan-ti joke>

@BESW did I mention the half-elf has a grafted yuan-ti tail instead of legs?

.....

@BESW which joke, btw?

@Zachiel Something about "spitting venom."

12:36 AM

don't spiders do that too?

Very very few creatures actually "spit" venom.

Some spray blood from their eyes, I think that makes up for there being so few venomspitters.

There's one group of spider that spits a combination of venom and liquid webbing, and several species of cobra spit venom.

The cobra's spitting is defensive, though.

A spitting cobra is one of several species of cobras that have the ability to eject venom from their fangs when defending themselves against predators. The sprayed venom is harmless to intact skin. However, it can cause permanent blindness if introduced to the eye and left untreated (causing chemosis and corneal swelling). The venom sprays out in distinctive geometric patterns, using muscular contractions upon the venom glands. These muscles squeeze the glands and force the venom out through forward-facing holes at the tips of the fangs. The explanation that a large gust of air is expell...

Spitting spider

Spitting spiders are members of the family Scytodidae. There are several genera, of which Scytodes is the best-known. Over 150 species of scytodids have been described worldwide. This means that the Scytodes is somewhat related to the family Sicariidae commonly known as Recluse spiders being that they are part of the same superfamily. Scytodidae catch their prey by spitting a fluid that congeals on contact into a venomous and sticky mass. Remarkably, though it is produced in venom glands in the chelicerae, the fluid contains both venom and spider silk in liquid form. The venom-impregn...

(I wish I'd done more with yuan-ti in my early days as a D&D GM.)

Ah, the relief. The game has gone like I wanted it.

That's what I like, when all seems to be lost and then there's a turnaround. Obviously this doesn't always happen... and when it doesn't, I feel sad and it hangs on me.
The strange thing is that I don't want to interfere with the course of actions everybody decides, like talking about expected results OOC, partly because "metagaming" but mostly because it's not as satisfactory if it's pre-planned

12:51 AM

@Zachiel So they do just plan it out OOC?

it's not expected but it's entierly possible that some real life friends join the game, agreeing that their characters can and will trust each other, because they want to roleplay friends or a close-knit familiar group (more often than not involving other players too)

1:21 AM

In effect, I'm suffering a little from thee fact that no real life frien of mine likes games where you need to text. They're all trying to get me playing DotA, but when I lose games I just get nervous. Very nervous. To the point of shooing everybody out of my house and uninstalling the game last time we made a lan party. I refused to play anything competitive for almost two years, before realizing I can still play card games where dealing luck is a huge factor in losing.

When losing is entirely imputable to my actions, be it errors or lack of skill, I hate myself for losing

Is this a game-specific thing, or do you have a similar response to failure in other parts of your life?

If it's just games, you can control your environment and reduce the issue.

If not... you might want to work on that.

1:38 AM

@BESW Let's say it's not that dramatic. I think it depends on how much I care for being able to do something. In life it's bad because not being able to do things can lose me a job, but the things I usually do when working are not things I really care about so strongly. Maybe games are places where consequences happen right now due to their fast nature... I don't know

Maybe it's direct comparison to people who could theoretically be at my sabe level that bothers me

When I'm working, I'm not compared to other people doing my same job in some other building, you know

While when I play I'm constantly facing people who's better or worse than me at the same things I'm doing.

Also, you don't see people on the internet chit-chatting about who's getting better results as a production manager, while "oh wow he's such a good GM" is way more popular

Makes sense.

Oh I've been talking with the half-elf player and we do agree on one necessary evil of that sort of games. He had other things to do for 4 months and his character's romance prey moved to someone else meanwhile. Asynchronicity be damned!

His reaction was "I'm gonna start a new PC", which is problematic because it sorta breaks the story I'm in - not really, the character just goes away and I still can play with the others but it's not gonna be like I'm dreaming it

1 hour later…

3:10 AM

So, having watched In the Loop, I think Capaldi will be very happy with the opportunity to express more than two emotions (profane rage and profane smug).

3:35 AM

This Kickstarter looks worthy.

2

Morning!

Somewhere, at least.

Hi.

4:11 AM

Y'know @BESW, when Myx pulls crap like the BS in my most recent question it makes it hard for me to not think he's picking a freakin' fight.

2

0

A: Do you still roll a saving throw against effects that your character is immune to?

So the answer is "no," no one in reality bothers to roll saves to things they are immune to. If you are writing some mechanic that expects them to, it needs to be super explicit and will suffer from the fact that it relies on an operation that flies in the face of common use, whether a tortured ...

Question is tagged RAW

Text of question indicates that I'm working on interpreting a RAW event

Looking for what happens during a semi-common event (immune creature is targeted by something it's immune to)

Aaaaand he's being a snarky confrontational jerk about it.

He's being no more confrontational or snarky than most comments are.

He's got an opinion and he's expressing it eloquently and firmly. The problem is that it's not what you're asking for, not that he's being rude about it.

Yes, it would be poor design if he didn't call attention to it--but the OP is not asking about design, nor is he stating or implying that he wouldn't bring attention to the unusual circumstance. He's asking quite clearly for a rules-based answer and you're giving an experience-based one. It's good advice, but the question isn't asking for advice. — BESW 1 min ago

It's a bit presumptuous, perhaps.

[shrug] He's giving very good experience-based advice in a slightly misapplied context.

's not like the question was unclearly asked or tagged

And I really don't like the assumption that I'm designing my entire mechanic around a weird edge case. I'm worried about a common circumstance

That said must flee now

Wife time

ttfn

4:44 AM

@besw the "snarky" answer Lord_Gareth referred you to -- I left a comment addressing yours, but @'d LG instead.

night

Hmm.

Responded.

"It might be more useful to others" is a common reason for people to ask questions too broadly, and when that happens we ask them to narrow it down.

2

5:27 AM

Wat.

Someone in sf&f.se asked a question, I answered it, they deleted it and asked it again without any substantial change.

5:50 AM

@BESW You can't delete a question that has answers, that I know of. (I have tried.)

This person managed.

scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/46872/…

Then they asked it again:

0

Q: The Doctor's Age at the end of Time of the Doctor

How old is the Doctor at the end of the Time of the Doctor when he regenerated???

Shows as deleted as well.

@BESW That one also shows removed.

It's just closed, not deleted.

The first is "voluntarily removed by its author."

The second is "marked as duplicate."

They both show as voluntarily deleted.

5:54 AM

Because for a brief shining moment the two existed simultaneously.

Huh. I'm getting the second one as still visible and openvotable.

@BESW For me it just takes me to the other one.

Ah. Yes, it redirects to the first question, which is self-deleted.

There is a hole in reality!

Beautiful.

Maybe it's because I have comments on the second one, and I only had an answer posted on the first.

Oh, and for bonus points the OP thinks that being in a truth field means everything the Doctor says about his age is absolute truth.

So what was your answer, briefly?

6:04 AM

If he's telling the truth, he's at least 1,500 years old, probably older. But he said his age was everywhere from 450 to "several thousand" as far back as the Second Doctor, the Fourth Doctor got called out for lying about his age, and starting with Six or Seven he admitted he was just guessing. Nine said he was younger than Seven had said, Eleven can't remember if he's lying about it or not, and Moffat has said:

> The thing I keep banging on about is that he doesn't know what age he is. He's lying. How could he know, unless he's marking it on a wall? He could be 8,000 years old, he could be a million. He has no clue. The calendar will give him no clues.

So sure, we'll say he's 1,500+ years old, with a wink and a nudge.

The truth is, we never even knew if he was using Earth years, Gallifreyan years, or just making up numbers because he thought it would make people happy.

Eight once said he just sort of rounded and adjusted based on different year lengths in different parts of the universe. Even if we had a solid number we could be sure of, it would be effectively meaningless.

(The original idea for regeneration was that it wasn't a "new body," it was the same body but younger.)

In conclusion: the Doctor can't help but be unhelpful.

Informative, thank you!

Some people seem to think that the Trenzalore truth field makes things more certain, which is baloney when you look at how many times in that episode he was able to bend and break the truth without actually lying.

(And even if it were so, there's a big gap when Clara's sent away the second time: we have no idea how long she was away that time. This makes the "1,500 years" estimate a minimum.)

In summary: Don't you use your fancy mathematics to muddy the issue!

7:07 AM

So, there's this (licensed) game called Pathfinder Dice Arena that just canceled its Kickstarter because it went way over its goal but lots of people who threw money in didn't realize that it was actually a board game thingy and not, like, for Pathfinder.

Clearly people need to read the dang page.

[blink]

It is increasingly clear that reading a lot of very short, simple blocks of text does not greatly enhance reading comprehension.

Looking at it some more, my guess is that they screwed the pooch with this image. What are those things at the top? People could easily assume they are supposed to represent some kind of minis. But they are not minis, they are just saying "this character exists as a card and some dice."

Perhaps, but the List O' Components doesn't include anything which could be interpreted as minis, so... [shrug] Close reading before spending money, people!

@BESW The way modern-day Kickstarters tend to stack stretch goals all over the page also seems to contribute to confusion.

This really should be clear to people visiting the page. It's like the first thing there, in giant letters:

> Pathfinder® Dice Arena™ is the dice rolling game of tournament competition featuring heroes from the best-selling Pathfinder RPG.

Alex's newly-minted rule of thumb: if your description of your product is full of Rs and TMs, it really doesn't need a Kickstarter.

Heh.

I think Kickstarter is sometimes used as a publicity tool now.

7:17 AM

Well, it's basically glorified pre-orders.

@BESW Actually, as a graphic design person, you might know this: does anyone need to stick trademark labels everywhere? Like, are there Important Legal Reasons that people need it to be that way and not just a note somewhere in the corner about "such and such are trademarks?"

Both of them serve as warning against potential violators of your trademark.

® specifically indicates that you've registered the trademark, and it serves as "statutory notice"--which means that when someone goes ahead and violates it anyway, you can get more money in court if you used the ®.

You don't need to use ™ or ® specifically-- phrases like "Reg. U.S. Pat. & Tm. Off." or "Registered in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office" work just as well.

™ just means you're staking a claim and intend to get the paperwork later; ® means you've got the paperwork to back it up.

And slapping ® on something is legally similar to sending a nice little letter to the violator telling them they're in violation.

Is that what you were asking?

7:34 AM

What I mean is: is there a big difference between making a poster for My Product ® vs. just making a poster for My Product and then writing "My Product ® me" in tastefully-small text at the bottom, for instance?

I see big corporate stuff just overflowing with ®s and ™s and then I see other people just tuck a little statement somewhere (presumably because a lot of their graphics and logos weren't designed specifically to have trademark notes in it originally).

Legally there's no difference, though in the case of a note at the bottom of the page, an asterisk next to the logo in question is required, to clarify exactly what is registered.

@BESW So then you end up with "why not just stick the little symbol there?"

Right.

(Also, I think there's a sense among some groups that the fancy symbol is more officious-looking.)

But legally no, there's no difference between "®" and "*MyLogo is a registered trademark of MyCompany."

There is one very solid practical reason I can think of to use ®, though.

If I were to take a picture of your logo, or cut it off the box, and someone else were to see it, the logo would no longer be attached to a footnoted registry declaration.

The violator might be able to use that to claim ignorance and get leniency (since they were not actually served statutory notice), and it would certainly make people more likely to violate your trademark (meaning that even if you could get all the punitive damages associated with statutory notice, you still had to go to court more than you would've otherwise).

I find the little trademark dealies to be an eyesore, is why I was asking.

When in doubt, blame the Mouse.

7:45 AM

@BESW YES. Very much.

The other thing that drives me crazy is when I'm editing a technical document (creating a bunch of kinda-internal technical documents that the government then gets as part of owning the source code is part of my job) and I see the little trademark thingies pop up in any list of commercial/open-source off-the-shelf components.

I.e. someone is using them as a magical legal talisman without any understanding of the fact that you probably shouldn't put one next to the names of things you don't own.

Heheh.

"I know what will protect me from legal action! Claiming other people's work as my own!"

I think there's kind of a generation-gap problem with some of this. I'm not saying young engineers are smarter, but at least it seems my age cohort has way fewer people who understand that you shouldn't just copy code off the web or take sound files from Windows and use them in your giant proprietary application.

To be fair, IP law is labyrinthine and ever-changing.

@AlexP And yeah, I've run into that with print media clients too.

"Oh, don't worry about whether we have permission to use Guernica, nobody ever enforces IP law on Guam."

(Amusingly, Guernica was briefly in the public domain before a Mouse Law shoved it back in the IP closet.)

Source

8:11 AM

Copyright internationally gets really weird. But I don't want anyone to really fix it because, well, the fix is likely to be standardizing around the craziest and most draconian thing anyone can come up with. All those copyright treaties always head in that direction, certainly. :/

Sigh.

The original goals of IP law have been utterly lost.

You've seen A Fair(y) Use Tale, right?

@BESW First time I've seen it.

Then I'm glad to have shared the joy.

Yeah, I kinda wish Disney had died out during that time they were struggling. Though maybe it wouldn't've helped since someone would've just bought the rights to their old stuff and kept pressing for Mouse Laws anyway.

Still, Robin Hood wouldn't have been that bad of a last hurrah.

8:32 AM

Mm. It's kind of chicken-or-egg, but I think Disney is more a symptom than a cause: the social and economic landscape is struggling with some weighty issues, and something would fill the Mouse-shaped hole in the debate if Disney weren't around.

It's one of those case where the problem exists, and suppressing it would just make it fester: if we don't fix it, it gets worse until it can't be sidestepped anymore.

Of course, that doesn't mean that the Mouse or a Mouse-like object couldn't be a more constructive participant in the debate instead of just forcing the issue through destructive methods.

Oh, great. There's a yowling cat outside my window.

8:50 AM

welcome to my life

except replace window with door

9:22 AM

Hey, @trogdor, I've been thinking about how our games are withering on the vine.

I think we need to try some single-session stuff instead of the long story arcs.

mm

that certainly sounds like it would help

And I'm also thinking maybe we should try some premade modules while we adapt to the new singleplayer Fate paradigm.

ok

I've got a cyberpunk premade that last looks solid. Might take us more than one night, but it's definitely short.

it's just really frustrating not having a full group

even just 3 people who show up every day would be nice (sorry Ben)

9:28 AM

...I don't know where "last" came from. Stupid autocorrect.

lol

Would you rather run or play the premade?

@BESW My favorite autocorrect of the year: "You know, a setting where instead of good guys and bad guys, everyone is morally Greg."

7

I've had players who only rolled Greg PCs.

as in "neutral-do-whatever-I-feel-like-at-the-time"?

9:32 AM

Or just literally a guy named Greg?

user image

Is he smoking something? I can't tell.

Well, whatever he's doing, he's doing it with aplomb.

Ah, Good Guy Greg.

Metool knows his Internet's.

ohhhh

now I recognize it

9:35 AM

Really, autocorrect? internet can't be plural?

Just thank your stars it didn't change it to "internments."

@trogdor Would you rather run or play a Fate cyberpunk premade?

I'm guessing play, but don't want to assume.

10:06 AM

Ok, my days of avoiding the internet until I could see the Doctor Who Christmas Special are over.

Hey there :)

10:43 AM

@BESW I dunno

and sorry, I was watching Game of Thrones

at the moment, either would appeal to me

11:22 AM

@lisardggY Yey!

@Kethryweryn Hi!

@trogdor Fair enough. (I was in a meeting.)

user image

Zing!

11:45 AM

The original "age of the Doctor" question was undeleted and restored.

@BESW lol

just got back from watching the next episode

@trogdor How about I run it, since I've had the time to read most of it already?

ok

seems like a reasonable thing

Maybe you could even then run me through it another time, since Fate means the same premade won't play the same way twice.

seems fair

I couldn't decide cause I like playing and running

11:58 AM

There are 6 premade PCs. Naturally the premade expects multiple players, but it's Fate. It can handle just one.

this seems a decent way to decide

Gunslinger, Infiltrator, Longshot, Netrunner, Shadowdancer, Wirejack.

How about we pop into the Fate room and have you choose one?

mk

12:30 PM

I'm really racking up the sf.se rep with all these Doctor Who questions pouring in.

Although it's a challenge to avoid answering half of them with "Because Moffat is an idiot"

lol

@lisardggY [sigh]

I don't even go there

cause I wouldn't be able to say anything but that

It actually really liked the episode until its last 10 minutes.

12:38 PM

I didn't even try to answer this one.

I really liked how he tied up most of the loose ends from the last 3 seasons.

....except for the fact that most of it was just vigorous handwaving that didn't actually explain anything, or raised more questions than they answered.

But the end was... bleh. The reset back to youth? Stupid. The killing-all-the-daleks-with-regeneration-energy? Double stupid.

@BESW I don't need it to withstand rigorous study. It's not that kind of show. Handwaving is fine with me if it leaves you with neat edges.

I liked how the Church of the Silence got started due to what happens in Trenzalore.

That was somewhat clever.

I didn't like the things he just threw in there. The Truth Field? What was that all about?

12:41 PM

Although it was also just another of Moffat's "I must make you re-think everything which has gone before, nothing is what you thought it was!" compulsions.

me makes me mad

> "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

that is all I can say without being incredibly rude

@Cat EEEEEE!

merry Christmas all!

12:42 PM

Yes, I remember that prophesy, but it doesn't actually serve anything.

Hey @BESW!!!

He through in a truth field for no real good reason other than fulfilling the prophecy. It didn't serve any piece of plot.

@lisardggY I don't know if it's better or worse that he invented something for the sake of firing an obvious Chekhov's gun, rather than his usual habit of inventing something which belatedly turns something prior into a Chevkhov's gun we didn't know about.

@Cat Happy Christmas. What's new?

Not much, had stomach flu over Christmas, so it was a pretty calm one.

Oh, my.

You're feeling better, I hope?

12:45 PM

Not the best, but I'm well in time to visit my best friend in the city today, which is a plus

Yey!

:)

How was your Christmas?

My family doesn't really celebrate Christmas, but my dad and I went to have dinner with @trogdor and his folks. (My mom's in the mainland visiting her mom and sisters.)

it was pretty nice to have you there

Sounds cozy :) My admiration for your avoiding of the Christmas bohemeth

(or however that's spelled)

12:48 PM

Not being Christian helps, I suppose.

I'm technically aetheist, but the best progress I've made on that front is avoiding Christmas mass. It's a point of contention with my Mom.

We usually just do two weeks' worth of shopping around the 18th and hole up as much as possible until after New Years'. The traffic alone is worth digging in.

I'll also admit that I love the excuse to gather as a family to eat, celebrate and reconnect

Aye.

When my extended family was still on island, we'd have dinner with them and exchange gifts.

(Only my parents and I are Bahá'í.)

mm honestly, I think I spend too much time with my family as it is

12:49 PM

Aha

even though that is a horrible thing to say

lol @trogdor

Speaking of family, @trogdor, maybe your sister will want to come by tomorrow night?

it isn't even my favorite holliday really

The main sign of Christmas here is the arrival of bad Christmas episodes in my favorite shows.

12:50 PM

I dunno

Well, my sister just moved home from Central Canada - this was our first real Christmas able to be shared with the whole family - so we had tonnes of family togetherness

she has not said more to me than you about it

@Cat And flu!

I mostly mean my parents really

Yes, we shared lots of flu together too.

12:51 PM

@lisardggY Hahaha.

I don't see my brother or sister often, so that is actually still enjoyable

I have not-so-fond memories of an extended-family weekend car trip in which the Family Activity was haggling over Pepto-Bismol and who got to use the bathroom next.

Ugh...don't remind me.

Fortunately we all got sick at different times.

My favorite holiday that my family celebrates is probably Ayyám-i-Há.

When is that?

12:55 PM

It's four days (five in leap year) at the end of February, dedicated to hospitality and charity.

Followed by 19 days of fasting, and then the New Year.

What do you like about it? The togetherness and giving?

(Sounds like the perfect time of year to engage in such activities)

Yes. It's a good opportunity to go visiting or invite people over who you don't usually see a lot, and the gift-giving is fun too.

:)

Professor Loki Caprion

[Loudly stealths in]

Hey Loki!

12:58 PM

Hi

Professor Loki Caprion

Hellu!

Every year in high school I made up a few hundred baggies with a bit of candy, an origami animal, and an appropriate quote from the Holy Writings, and I'd hand them out at school over the four days.

@ProfessorLokiCaprion [wave]

Wow! Lots of work!

You really took the holiday to heart!

Yes, but so worth it.

About the closest to that I ever got was during valentines day.

Professor Loki Caprion

12:58 PM

That does sound nice! :)

Guys, do any of you know of Psi*Run ?
[Link to character sheet] (http://nightskygames.com/pdfs/PsiRun-sheets.pdf)

I'd give out valentines and hot cinnamon hearts to everyone, mostly because I thought everyone deserved a valentine

(Failed link.)

@Kethryweryn Needs http://

:'(

12:59 PM

You can still edit it!

@Cat That's excellent.

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