TRPG General Chat

12:03 AM

@BrianBallsun-Stanton ok i think half the sentence will do

Her gaze remains on the child, now that she's near. Now that she's near to the two of 'em. Her lips disclose in a motion of instinctual surprise while her gaze lingers on the colour of his skin, revealing a mixed blood, an unpopular lineage. She slightly widens her light, restless eyes, suddenly turning towards Imsh in the act of looking at his face.

She doesn't speak, not yet, but the look she gives him, full of a bitter awareness, is more than eloquent. There's anguish in her eyes, there's dismay and maybe even rage, when the women reveals them why she's still out there, at the mercy of the cold winter. She closes her lips in a nervous flick while she raises her gaze looking for his pale visage, for his bloody red lips "Don't say so. Come with us and we'll let you rest in a bed and..."

she hesitates for a brief moment, when she coughs. She hesitates, yes, for the fear that almost touched her is becoming more pressing "and get better"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

oh.

Cute.

Zachiel

she's wordy. She's being wordy on purpose I guess

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

::sigh:: It's one of these

Right, step 1, go read Doc Smith and learn all the lessons he has to offer. ::twitch::

Zachiel

doc smith?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Okay, so you're actually showing us two different problems here. Learning how to write purple prose and learning how to use the mechanics of a custom RPG.

BESW

12:05 AM

[snerk]

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

(and it really is custom)

BESW

E. E. Smith

Edward Elmer Smith, Ph.D., also, E. E. Smith, E. E. "Doc" Smith, Doc Smith, "Skylark" Smith, and (to family) Ted (May 2, 1890 – August 31, 1965) was a food engineer (specializing in doughnut and pastry mixes) and early science fiction author who wrote the Lensman series and the Skylark series, among others. He is sometimes referred to as the father of space opera. Biography Family and education Edward Elmer Smith was born in Sheboygan, Wisconsin on May 2, 1890 to Fred Jay Smith and Caroline Mills Smith, both staunch Presbyterians of British ancestry. His mother was a teacher born in M...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

The grandfather of science fiction

My gods was his prose purple, but that seems to be what people are calling for in this ... chat.

BESW

Purple prose

Purple prose is a term of literary criticism used to describe passages, or sometimes entire literary works, written in prose so extravagant, ornate, or flowery as to break the flow and draw excessive attention to itself. Purple prose is sensually evocative beyond the requirements of its context. It also refers to writing that employs certain rhetorical effects such as exaggerated sentiment or pathos in an attempt to manipulate a reader's response. When it is limited to certain passages, they may be termed purple patches or purple passages; these are often noted as standing out from the res...

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

We can't help you learn how to write. The only way to do that is to... well... write.

Zachiel

12:06 AM

there's also people with a fantastic white prose

I like those too

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

But yes, we can't teach you how to write.. It kinda sucks, but ... I'd recommend read as much as you can in as many genres as you can?

Zachiel

however, the purple prose writer is the one who said "level doesn't matter"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Then spend time each day trying to write.

@Zachiel Yep!

Zachiel

I do write all day

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Because to them, they have an audience.

Zachiel

12:07 AM

already

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

They don't care about mechanical effectiveness, they... care about the story.

Zachiel

right

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Which, while a completely valid way to play RPGs, is poorly matched with 3.0

doppelgreener

@Zachiel How often do you read books?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

very. very. poorly.

Zachiel

12:09 AM

@jonathan As of now, brian's right

I used to read more before I started writing

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel And now we get into RPG theory. Aaand I don't feel like going down that rabbit hole today.

Zachiel

the problem is, this player and her friends care about the story. And I do too.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Ah, here we are. I am happy to mediate your master/apprentice relationship. If you can find someone who you would like to be your master on that chat and ask them to join us here, I can outline a plan of study to your mutual benefit.

I disrecommend apprenticing yourself to a narrativist. It warps the mind.

Zachiel

But when I play it comes out I have to limit myself because my character meets more powerful characters and can't have leverage on them

doppelgreener

@Zachiel I don't know what that means in terms of an answer, but yeah, you do need to read often. My greatest improvements in my writing have come along because I've learned new ways to structure a sentence or express an idea from a book I've been reading.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:10 AM

@Zachiel Nonsense!

Complete nonsense.

You're a changeling.

You should have everyones secrets.

Zachiel

like, I meet this priest-ur who menaces my lord

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

You should make nom nom nom sounds as you blackmail the entire game.

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton I once played under a narrativist Storyteller. His games were amazing narratives that nobody was allowed to disrupt, so all the players just had to go along for the ride.

Zachiel

she could be there overhearing our conversation while invisible

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@BESW Yep! That was the D&D LARP, too.

Zachiel

12:12 AM

I don't have ideas

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel Ah. So apprentice yourself (not your character) to the player who plays the ur-priest. Figure out how to support his plans.

ask him how

build a character to do so

Zachiel

question

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Then, start with simple missions for execution, get his help to write your narrative, and build upwards

Zachiel

wait wait wait

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Also, if epic (or close enough) characters can be spied on with a simple invis spell, they deserve what they get.

I mean... they are depressingly vulnerable to scry&die if they're vulnerable to invis.

Zachiel

12:13 AM

first of all I want to know if you think the general politic context is relevant and if you're interested in hearing it

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel nope

It's fluff.

this is a human interaction problem.

Zachiel

now she has a mask of true sight but since she used a polymorph any object to look younger she hates to see her face in mirrors

an intended weakness to make the character more human

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

... hah ::snort::

"A practical man can always make what he wants to do look like a noble sacrifice of personal inclinations to the welfare of the community. I've decided that I've got to be practical myself, and that's one of the rules. How about breakfast?"

3

That... is the phrase to completely master if you want to succeed at a narrativist game.

Zachiel

how do you master such a thing?

BESW

@BrianBallsun-Stanton Where is that from? It sounds very familiar.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:16 AM

@BESW gutenberg.org/files/24035/24035-h/24035-h.htm

@Zachiel Figure out how to think about requirements and design spaces :)

BESW

Huh. Haven't read that.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

The order to do things in is ... simple (hard, but simple)

BESW

A modicum of cynism doesn't hurt.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

1) Consider the problem. Articulate all of the needed outcomes of the problem.

Spend at least 5 minutes (by the clock) thinking about the problem and your desired outcomes.

Don't allow yourself to think about how to solve it

2) Given a well defined problem, eliminate choices.

Make no choice, instead, remove possible choices.

(it's a very zen way of doing IT, I am told, but it works for all requirements-problems)

BESW

bartleby.com/109/11.html

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:18 AM

3) You'll now have the mechanical actions necessary to achieve your goal

Reading hpmor is an excellent way to see this process in action, BTW.

4) Figure out what opposition the actions will encouter.

BESW

Poe's (patently false, but nonetheless enlightening) essay about how he wrote The Raven gives an example of this in writing for effect.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

5) frame your narrative such that it looks like you are taking the moral high ground and sacrificing yourself on behalf of the community by taking these actions

Zachiel

@besw that's how I wish Naruto had been written

BESW

Being Poe, the prose is... rather dense.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

6) execute your narrative.

This is an intentional, manipulative, mechanism. And it's at the heart of role-playing.

Zachiel

12:20 AM

I don't think my alignment is evil enough

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Unless you can understand and embrace the mechanical-narrative duality, you'll e hobbled by "this is what my chracter would do"

@Zachiel nono, not for your character

for yourself

Zachiel

I was talking abut MY alignment

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Evil/good is a function of Which actions you choose to do , and how you choose to flavour them

intentional action is neither evil nor good.

It's ontologically neutral. It's what you do with these actions that matters.

In order to be good or evil, you must be effective. And understanding the mechanical-narrative duality allows you to be effective.

Zachiel

so if I don't disrupt another player's objectives it's good

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Good... varies. We can discuss the various moralities out there.

I can assign you readings if you wish

Zachiel

12:22 AM

I'm not sure

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

on this topic or morality. Beware, you are talking to a philosophy Ph.D.

Zachiel

I don't think I know the desidred outcomes yet

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Right, we'll start simply, with my paper on optimization

@Zachiel and this is the source of your problems.

BESW

@Zachiel Take the example of the Mask of True Seeing. She justified constantly wearing an extremely powerful utility item by giving her character a tragic story with the outcome that she wanted.

Zachiel

no no no wait

she justified NOT wearing it

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:23 AM

@Zachiel But she has it, right?

And has access to it?

Zachiel

she needs it for the quests and she bought it

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel And so, she has access to this insane item without the appearance of power.

Zachiel

I'm going to buy that too when I have the money, way better than spending 250gp several times a day

no I don't think this is a problem

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm Start by getting all of those enchanted into you first.

Italian's your first language? Do you speak any others?

Zachiel

it all started with the ur-theurge played as a NPC (Then that DM's character died on a quest and I proposed him to turn the NPC who was driving us nuts into a PC)

I can read french and a little bit of spanish

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:26 AM

@Zachiel read: mendeley.com/download/public/2110651/4420051955/… and fanfiction.net/u/2842070/AdrienH

Zachiel

for permanency I'm waiting to have one of thos blades that makes you immune to one spell

superior dispel magic

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel ... waiting?

Zachiel

I donìt know which armor to buy

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

If you can afford perm, get all of those spells on you. And make sure to cover them with magic aura, properly.

Zachiel

I don't know if a monk's belt is better

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:27 AM

Don't worry about it, you're an urban infiltrator

You should have absolutely no focus on doing damage.

you want to collect secrets

Zachiel

My target armor as of now is a gnomish what's-it-called shirt

I'm not going to get XP fast if I don't kill monsters

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel frame your request in such a way that your challenges are finding secrets. You shouldn't need to kill mobs, you need to overcome them, i.e. bypass them.

you should be doing sneaks, not... murder sprees

Zachiel

Requests?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

to the DM committee, for quests.

Wait, you're playing 3.0 but with 3.5 spells...

Oh your game gives me such a headache.

Zachiel

most encounters are casual encounters or missions like "this evildoer has taken control of a part of your city, the major has flee and there's a bill on your guild leader

no we're not playing 3.0

I'm playing 3.0 with my P&P group

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:31 AM

@Zachiel oh, you said that you were in the past.

Zachiel

for I didn't want to convert CotSQ

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel er.... So instead of just getting quests like that...

go out and tell your DMs what your objectives are

Zachiel

that's not going to work

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

and say "here's what I want to be doing during the "nominal" quests that the public players are doing"

So it's a narrativist railroad by committee.

Zachiel

and it's going to be "ok roll gather informations"

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

12:32 AM

@Zachiel Ask for that to be played out, tell them that this is what you find fun and dramatic. That this is what your character does.

Zachiel

why should they do that for me and not for everybody else?

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel Why shouldn't they?

Zachiel

because they are few

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

This is a game supporiting evil characters.

evil characters don't do the "heroic quest" thing.

BESW

The others aren't asking for it; they have different objectives that are being catered to.

Zachiel

12:34 AM

the others are asked not to ask

I'm asked not to ask too

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

So... don't ask. Do.

if you don't assert yourself, you won't get any screentime, therefore no narrative, therefore no power.

Zachiel

I've been in that knid of games for several yrs now and I've been a DM in one of them. Believe me, it's madness

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

@Zachiel Yes, your game is madness. We agree.

Zachiel

That's why I was going to tell you how others got more screentime

as an example ok

it was a clever... or maybe lucky way of having DMs propose them what they wanted, without the need to ask

BESW

@Zachiel From what you've been saying, it sounds like 'screentime' is achieved through social engineering by catering to the GMs' sense of drama and the kind of story the GMs want to tell.

Zachiel

12:36 AM

sort of

isn't this what traditional games are all about? XD

but it's gonna be easier with an ezample

BESW

@Zachiel A good game doesn't have the GM using personal fiat to shoot down anything that doesn't mesh with his person fiefdom, while simultaneously accomodating ridiculous requests that fall in line with his power trip.

Zachiel

no ridiculous request

BESW

A good game has a GM who listens to his players' interests, tries to give them equal screentime, and doesn't belittle people who try to interact with him in ways that he's uncomfortable with.

Zachiel

a player wants to take the bringer of the purlpe prestige class

BESW

@Zachiel That economic pyramid scheme sounded pretty ridiculous to me.

Zachiel

12:40 AM

I don't think Brian has heard it

it's this

there are in.game merchants, characters with the merchantile expertise feat

as in P&P D&D they can only buy 1 discounted item each month

suppose several merchants gather

the probability to have 1 free merchant when someone asks for it is bigger

even bigger if the merchantile guild refuses to buy anything costing less than 10000 gp

every item they get from players dismissing it (found in a quest, replaced with something better, sold before changing PC) is bought at 75% and sold again to players at 75% with no gain, just to increase the guild's popularity

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Ah, italian economics :)

Zachiel

moreover whoever wants to join the guild keeps all his incomes (this has later been motivated as "the guild itself gains money from a mine and banks, with better results if we get popular")

so the guild comes in contact with many players

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

(still, it's better than massive level 20 Cleric bailouts, because they're too big to fail)

Zachiel

and is so strong that every big city power wants to have them as friends

and that's all between PCs

save for when some DM proposed them to buy the mine

diplomatic quests do exist

the character who had the idea is at the lead of the guild

she's married with the strongest character in the game because they had the same tastes and both a lot of time to play

togheter

when he goes to an epic quest she follows

which means he's sort of p-leveling her

while when I go to quests it' usually me defending a bunch of low levels

(or the ur-theurge tanking the dangerous guys while I kill the controller and the minions)

that guild leader also chose a PrC that requires her to get in contact with an external guild (NPCs only)

BESW

You just described a player-instituted pyramid scheme that the GMs are supporting, based on an economic model that was never intended to actually function, but was designed just to make treasure progression follows the intended power curve.

Zachiel

12:53 AM

is the economic way the only way to achieve such importance in this game?

I guess so since it's one of two resources (the other being xp)

BESW

@Zachiel That is a question I can't answer, because you're not playing any game I've ever heard of.

This isn't D&D of any stripe, it's "figure out what tickles the GMs' fancy and how you can turn that to your advantage."

Zachiel

I don't think it's about fancy

it's about "what are the tings the DM needs to put some effort on if I announce I'm gonna do them?"

At least for the PrC thing

then there's the other point

BESW

You said earlier that the characters are asked not to ask for the game to accomodate them. Then you said a character has become the economic leader of the world because the GMs let her use her idea.

Zachiel

I'm not doing epic missions because I'm not able to survive them or because I chose the wrong players to tutor me?

BESW

And, in fact, went out of their way to support it.

Zachiel

12:57 AM

out of their way?

where?

it's all PC on PC interaction

no NPCs there

BESW

12 mins ago, by Zachiel

moreover whoever wants to join the guild keeps all his incomes (this has later been motivated as "the guild itself gains money from a mine and banks, with better results if we get popular")

11 mins ago, by Zachiel

save for when some DM proposed them to buy the mine

Zachiel

yes it was a guild related mission with no in-game consequence

like we had the "avoid coup d'etat" mission

BESW

At the very least I'm seeing a GM walk in with a mission tailored for the PC-created guild of merchants that supported and enabled that PC idea.

If I tilt my head a little I see a GM providing a means for a single PC to gain power over other PCs by having them work for her.

Zachiel

let's just say that if that didn't happen the only consequence would have been new merchants asking themselves where the trick wit the guild was

BESW

@Zachiel So you're saying the GMs had already let it get far too out of hand and were trying to do damage control by handing a player control over an entire subset of the game system?

There is no way I can look at this and reconcile it with your feeling that you can't ask for some simple espionage missions, and not see negligence if not rampant abuse of power.

Zachiel

1:02 AM

the convenince of shopping at the guild and not at the independents is there at the exact moment some merchants gathered and offered the basic service with better response times

and this includes no GM intervention at all

maybe a diligent choice of merchants who were not changing their character every 2 days leaving people with no items was involved

BESW

@Zachiel See, a little while ago you were giving the impression that the GMs had absolute power over whether your choices succeeded or failed. You said repeatedly that various ideas and builds and character developments wouldn't work because the GMs would shoot it down.

Zachiel

I think that if another group of player does the same they're gonna get a good share of the market

BESW

Now you're saying the GMs let THIS happen without any oversight at all, and then later swooped in to consolidate her power with a tailor-made quest.

Zachiel

this is not a mechanical thing

it's like my guild leader

she can't be the chief of the city because we're not allowed to change the setting

BESW

.......

Zachiel

1:06 AM

but she had some quests where her power as landlord (she has the feat) was recognized by the city council

BESW

But becoming the leader of a world-spanning merchant guild is fine.

Zachiel

she's not gaining money from this

BESW

[throws hands up in air] There is nothing I can do to help you. Your game is unique and ineffable.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

Seconded. Sorry.

Zachiel

I can't understand where the problem is

BESW

1:07 AM

Every attempt to understand it yields further damp, sticky depths of the rabbit hole.

Zachiel

it's not like she did something wrong.

BESW

@Zachiel Your GMs did many things wrong. They are not playing by D&D rules, nor are they playing by their own rules.

Zachiel

by D&D rules what shoud have happened?

BESW

In a game where the rules are different for different people, and when approached the GMs are rude and insufferable, there is no constancy on which to stand.

Zachiel

I don't understand where the difference in rules is

you can't play a specific occupied role, like "ruler of that town"

you can play a non specific role (my guild leader has "best bard ever"

another guild leader has "commander of the irregular's army of Neverwinter"

everyone can find a bunch of players and make his own guild

I just think the guilsd that were somewhat interesting have already been done

there's a mercenary enclave of mages

there's Neverwinter's guards

an arcane school tried to rise but not many player were interested in roleplaying it

BESW

1:13 AM

@Zachiel By D&D rules they should not be mixing and matching sourcebooks and errata, as their exclusions further imbalance an already imbalanced system. They should not be claiming that power differential is irrelevant, as power differential is the heart of the D&D level progression system. They should not be making arbitrary distinctions between valid and invalid roles, as D&D has no such status quo in its world.

They should certainly not be rude and dismissive of their players, ever, much less should they be so blatantly favoritist as your stories depict them to be.

Zachiel

we have the information gathering guild

I think I gave you the wrong impression on being rude and dismissive

but I don't see favoritisms in what I've said (I see it elsewhere, like in the numer of missions each player gets)

and that's not fixable. Just always logging in at 4 pm when the DMs enter and start quests at 3:30 pm means less quests

BESW

@Zachiel The very fact that you feel it is a person's quality of prose which determines the amount of attention they get is a strong indication of favoritism.

Zachiel

the quality of prose means more people playing with that character

and this in turn means getting more... how are they called

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

attention currency

Zachiel

adventure hooks

BESW

1:17 AM

A GM's job does not stop at mediating mechanical issues and providing quests. That is the least and easiest part of being a GM.

Brian Ballsun-Stanton

basically you've described a game where attention is the primary currency. The ability to manipulate attention currency allows a player to get arbitrary amounts of power.

Zachiel

if my guild leader always calls his marshal to solve problems of the guild

and the marshal is married with the merchant's guild leader

so how do I get more attention? (and how do I avoid pissing off DMs while trying to understand it by asking them?)

Problem is there's no more high level males to marry XDXDXD

BESW

@Zachiel We don't know. It's a factor of your particular GMs' foibles and fancies. Sounds to me like they enjoy self-indulgent hysterical drama and purple prose.

That's why I say this isn't D&D and we can't really help you in any meaningful way: it's a game in which the goal is to get the GMs' attention and we don't know what your GMs are looking for.

Zachiel

and they're probably not going to pay any attention to a whiner who says "I want more attention"

BESW

All RPGs contain a certain amount of social engineering. Yours seems to be nothing but.

Zachiel

1:21 AM

what about the part where I get worse XP prizes for I'm not able to win over bigger enemies?

ah yes I remember now

BESW

@Zachiel You're probably right there. That's why @BrianBallsun-Stanton was trying to help you understand narrating for effect, and designing a character with a story that might appeal to the GMs. But you say the GMs don't respond well to that kind of thing, so he dropped it.

Zachiel

that's me not being able to get (socially) quests with no combat

well I can design a character with a story that appeals the GMs

I can try to

BESW

@Zachiel It's also about not being D&D. In D&D you aren't expected to be able to tackle creatures more than about three, maybe five levels higher than you, and that's a big deal when that happens.

Zachiel

but copying any of the existing characters is going to have everyone see me as a copy and avoid playing with me isolating me

BESW

You're expected to be adventuring with a group of three or four other players close to your level with whom you overcome challenges designed for your power level.

Zachiel

1:24 AM

not sure about that, my P&P players just walk through CR +4 encounters like they were nothing

maybe it's Gwendolym M. Kestrel giving stupid builds to NPCs

BESW

By forcing you out of that paradigm (and encouraging this action in others, for example the power-leveling you mentioned earlier) the GMs are basically saying "screw you, and screw D&D."

Zachiel

like fighter 4 nercomancer 5

BESW

I've got nothing, I'm afraid. Your game is unique and ineffable and abusive.

I'm very sorry, but there is no stable commonality on which to formulate any kind of useful advice or assistance.

Cat

Sounds like I've popped in on a depressing conversation :(

BESW

@Cat We've discovered that Zachiel's difficulties in his PbP game aren't really mechanical, but fundamentally that his GMs are unfortunately susceptible to social engineering and the game is D&D 3.5 in only the loosest of senses.

So, how're you?

Cat

1:34 AM

That's sad ... especially if he signed up thinking he'd get the chance to play 3.5

i'm just wonderful. Just got back from a day with my boyfriend.

Shopping, meal, movie, etc

BESW

Nice.

Cat

No complaints on this side, for sure

I'm also finally decided that I'll pick up the pathfinder core rulebook tomorrow and start my next campaign with that system

I got a chance to browse through Legends of Anglerre as a pdf, but decided I would miss all the "crunch" of the 3.5/75 system

I'll have to leave it for next Christmas ;)

Zachiel

I signed up thinking that if P&P 3.5 was more enforcing on actually roleplaying what t your character does (which tat game does) I'd like it more. Unfortunately illusionism doesn't work on me anymore and the "If I don't fudge and you die you're gonna lose XP" thing has me hating every combat where the DM is not good enough at convincing me he really tried to kill me but didn't succeed becaus of my choices.

I've read LoA and I can't understand how to play it

Cat

I won't claim I became an expert in my skimming either

Zachiel

I'm sorry for the typoes I'm falling asleep

Cat

1:40 AM

But now that I have a pdf, I may give it a try as a one shot sometime with my gaming group

BESW

2:00 AM

@Cat I'm unfamiliar with the system; what is it?

Aaand she's gone. eh.

BESW

2:20 AM

@JonathanHobbs I was thinking of the Gods of Ragnarok as a way to have Primordial(s) influence your campaign without letting them lose on the world at large.

Well, as a template for the idea anyway.

doppelgreener

@BESW Oh? What do they do exactly?

BESW

In The Greatest Show in the Galaxy they were summoned from the space between the universes by a hapless circusman. They have influence over him and the people he had influence over, and in this world that's really about it.

Zachiel

ok another DM is missed at me for I'm assillating her

BESW

So they use the circus as a puppet to fulfill their (admittedly petty) goals, seducing people with the lure of joining the circus and then using their lackeys to keep them there.

doppelgreener

@Zachiel You're whatting her?

@BESW I guess it'd be neat having a primordial appearing in human form and meddling with things / controlling people.

BESW

2:24 AM

@JonathanHobbs Perhaps that artifact you mentioned has some kind of ability to project or control.

Sort of a One Ring kind of deal, or maybe more direct puppetry.

doppelgreener

@BESW I'm imagining the Primordial appearing in the Bastion in human form and at a fraction of its power, similar to Voldemort arising from his horcrux diary in the Chamber of Secrets.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs Neeeerd.

And yes, that's pretty much perfect.

Perhaps he takes on a Grima Wormtongue role, as a thorn in the side of the PCs who never really suspect who he is until much later.

And then when they actually want to destroy the artifact, he's there to defend it.

doppelgreener

I wonder what he'd do exactly. He could participate as someone ageless, or invent identities for himself every now and then and just sort of appear, or he could simulate his own aging and death (or disappearance) and then reappear elsewhere as a scruffy boy and grow his own identity, or he could have people killed and impersonate them. Or he could have several identities.

I am going to actually go with "she" since that is more interesting.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs It?

If it's taking on multiple roles...

doppelgreener

She could be the assassin's guild master (and has carefully maintained that identity for years), as well as a Lady of the court - and she plays the part of a governor, who she sent an assassin to kill so she could replace him and act as him.

BESW

2:30 AM

But give some common quality as a hint to their true nature.

A smell, a favorite color, something that you can add to your descriptions without being too obvious.

doppelgreener

I could go with it, that's true. For now though I'm going to go with she, because it is more stimulating for my mind and I'll be breaking myself out of patterns I could call into were I to just make her masculine. In short: having her be a woman is more intriguing.

BESW

@JonathanHobbs The Fairy Nuff snickers knowingly.

doppelgreener

Plus, she could be a pain in their asses and, in combat, say "You wouldn't hit a woman, would you?" and etc

(And they shouldn't, should they!? They could stride into the Court and go punch a man in the face, and people would just wonder what the heck those two have going on between them. For them to stride into the Court and punch a woman would make them monstrous.)

@BESW I'll think about what, and do this. :)

BESW

@JonathanHobbs I can't remember if it's true in 4e, but I recall a place in 3.5 that said that D&D civilizations are gender-equal unless noted otherwise.

Of course, in practice none of the material ever followed through on that.

@JonathanHobbs Consider the nature of your Primordial and find something appropriate.

What did she Create in the Beginning? What elements are strongly associated with her? What are her goals?

doppelgreener

Can Primordials have more than one element?

BESW

2:36 AM

It's easy to forget that Primordials are by their essence Creators as well as Destroyers; their evil comes from the fact that their desire to Create continuously necessitates the destruction of what they Created before.

@JonathanHobbs I don't see why not. They're chaotic pre-Beings.

Give them portfolios like the gods, just more Primordialy.

doppelgreener

@BESW Aren't they also a little tainted by the Seed in the Abyss, or is that just the elemental chaos itself that has been tainted (and its denizens are not)?

BESW

@JonathanHobbs You're probably better versed in that than me.

doppelgreener

The book is actually not specific about it, so I guess it can go either way.

BESW

My understanding was that the upper levels of the Chaos are mostly just... chaotic and motivated by the Primordials' need to destroy and recreate.

doppelgreener

@BESW Yeah, they're just chaotic. Mostly by the fact the elements themselves keep churning around and clashing, and by the fact the titans roam and attempt to make their own elements dominate certain areas.

So the inhabitants themselves take care of the constant creation and destruction too.

BESW

2:39 AM

It's the devils in the Abyss who are actually interested in mortals on a more personal pain-and-suffering level.

doppelgreener

@BESW Demons, not Devils. :) The Devils are in the Astral Sea.

BESW

The elements are just doing their elementy thing, and mortals kinda fall apart if they get in the way.

@JonathanHobbs I stand corrected.

My campaign right now is all about devils and demons are kinda ignored.

Although you might consider having that confusion be an in-world one too. One of my players did that and I really liked it.

"Demon, devil, whatever."

Your average adventurer probably learns the difference pretty quick, and certainly anyone with the right skill training should know.

But Joe on the street know the difference between an elemental, a devil, a demon, and an aberrant? Eeeh.

He probably thinks mind flayers are demons and drow are mythical (and maybe a little racist).

doppelgreener

@BESW Ha, I like that too. Especially because of how a devil or a demon would feel if you said that to them.

BESW

I mean, the book is vague on the exact distinction between elemental and demon, behaviorally speaking.

@JonathanHobbs Yeah. The party tiefling (trained in Religion) had to bite his tongue at least once a day around this other PC.

doppelgreener

@BESW Ha, that's excellent.

BESW

2:47 AM

[gritted teeth] "I'm NOT a demon. Sigh."

doppelgreener

@BESW In 4e, elementals just want to break the material world down into its base elements. They want to reclaim what was theirs, and the Primordials want to recreate the world anew, like it was before the Gods tainted it.

Demons want to feed everything into the Abyss. They don't want destruction and chaos, they want oblivion.

BESW

Fair enough.

I'm sure that's a distinction lost on most of the mortals involved, though.

doppelgreener

@BESW Completely lost. :) They're both just destroying everything either way.

Though whilst demons would prefer to bring an empire to ruin and leave it that way, a fire titan would rather melt everything down to slag and light everything on fire.

BESW

In my campaign I've turned some semi-canon into headcanon that the Spell Weavers are trying to destroy the multiverse too, but their goal is to turn it back into the previous multiverse that the Primordials trashed to make this one.

They're survivors of that previous creation, and are now allied with the Far Realm (as much as one can be) to do a rollback.

Poor multiverse has so many forces that want to trash it, and its defenders are having a staring contest with each other.

Oh! An aspect of your human city-state that I think could be really interesting!

doppelgreener

I was just reading about the Weavers. That is some nice lore you came up with.

BESW

2:56 AM

They're the descendants of refugees of Nerath, right?

doppelgreener

Yes

BESW

And Nerath was founded by humans, but built on the idea of equality for all non-horde races.

...except dragonborn.

So you can do interesting things with that idea of racial equality warring with the increasing tension with the elves. How does that motivation people in the Bastion?

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