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Rob
Rob
13:49
I found an interesting reference note in the wiki article on negative numbers Different languages have different conventions regarding the sign of zero. For example, in French, zero is considered to be both positive and negative. The French words positif and négatif mean the same as English "positive or zero" and "negative or zero" respectively.
Could anybody to verify this claim, please?
...zero is usually thought of as neither positive nor negative.[1]
[Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_number#cite_ref-0) is the link to the full article. The reference note is labeled [1]
Cerberus
Cerberus
I am highly sceptical.
I think the connotations of zero are mostly the same in modern European languages.
In English, you could say zero is either negative and positive at the same time, or neither.
It is just a matter of definition; I don't think there is much of an intuitive difference from French.
Jez
Jez
14:12
French has zéro...
 
9 hours later…
Gilles
Gilles
22:53
@Rob in math, “positif” and “négatif” usually include 0. We say “strictement positif” or “strictement négatif” to exclude 0. Similarly, “supérieur/inférieur” or “plus grand/petit que” usually includes equality, we add “strictement” to exclude equality. You can say “positif/négatif ou nul” or “supérieur/inférieur ou égal” to explicitly allow equality.
The claim is mostly correct, though it could stand to be qualified (that's the majority usage, not the sole usage)
Cerberus
Cerberus
Do you experience this as substantially different from English?
Gilles
Gilles
23:11
@Cerberus yes, in my experience, “positive” usually means >0 in English, and “positif” usually means >=0 in French
3
I usually find “nonnegative” in English where a French text would use “positif” or “positif ou nul”
including the equality case is more common among mathematicians (or other scientists) than in daily life
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Gilles OK interesting.
Then perhaps the Wiki should refer to this transcript.
To me, "zero" or "nul" are always ambiguous.
Gilles
Gilles
@Cerberus this transcript is hardly a valid source
I think most math books do say “positif ou nul” and so on, to make sure there's no ambiguity
Jez
Jez
yes, I would say zero is definitely NOT negative, but I wouldn't say one way or the other on its positivity
(in English)
Cerberus
Cerberus
@Gilles I was kidding.
> Shelob is a giant spider, daughter of Ungoliant of unknown pedigree
This is funny.
Gilles
Gilles
amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-math%C3%A9matiques-Alain-Bouvier/dp/…
> Nombre positif. — Nombre réel supérieur à 0. L'opposé d'un nombre positif est négatif et réciproquement. Le seul nombre positif et négatif est 0.
Le Petit Robert n'est pas clair :
> Nombre positif : nombre réel plus grand que 0. L'ensemble des nombres entiers positifs ou naturels.
if “nombres entiers positifs” = “nombres naturels”, then “positif” includes 0
Cerberus
Cerberus
23:22
> 3 Math. et phys. | Grandeur, quantité positive, qui, dans une représentation géométrique par segments orientés, correspond à un déplacement dans la direction de l'axe. — Nombres (cit. 6) positifs : ensemble des nombres réels plus grands que zéro.
Le Grand Robert.

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