Chez Cosette

Frank

00:07

@jlliagre T'es en retard, j'avais signalé cet article de l'Economist il y a un bail :-)

jlliagre

Oui, je me doutais un peu que c'était un duplicate.

Frank

Tiens j'ai une nouvelle nouvelle définition d'une "faute" en langue.

En fait, ma définition c'est que les fautes ne sont même pas possibles, par construction.

jlliagre

C'est une drôle de définition.

Frank

Parce que une vraie faute, c'est quand le destinataire de la communication ne comprend pas.

Et en fait, le français, l'anglais, et toute la communication ont des moyens de corriger dans ces cas-là.

jlliagre

@Frank Ah, ça arrive alors.

@Frank Corriger quoi s'il n'y a pas de faute ?

Frank

00:11

Par exemple, quelqu'un dit: "An answer has not title". C'est très bien. Le destinataire a tout compris, donc la communication est réussie, et c'est tout ce qui compte.

Par contre, si je dis "daf hjafs adfkle", là va falloir corriger quelque chose

jlliagre

Oui, là c'est une vraie coquille, je pensais no et j'ai écris not.

Frank

Oui, mais même, le destinataire a complètement compris.

jlliagre

@Frank jhgaz quzbeh nbfe ?

Frank

Oui tu vois, là, je mets en branle le mécanisme de la communication qui permet de comprendre, je dis: kèzako ?

Le mot clé dans ces cas-là.

jlliagre

Un peu d'occitan, ça fait du bien.

Tu comprends l'espagnol ?

Frank

00:14

Tu vois, donc, les fautes mineures n'empêchent pas de se comprendre.

Je comprends un peu l'espagnol. Je te signale que je vis dans un pays hispanique.

jlliagre

Ok, regarde cette vidéo:

El occitano o la inducida vergüenza de hablar tu propia lengua

►

Frank

Hmmm. Mais tu sais, si on avait 25 patois, comment on ferait ? Le gouvernement devrait payer pour imprimer tous les documents en 25 patois, et entretenir des interprètes pour toutes les paires de patois ? Standardiser est aussi utile. Ceci dit, on peut toujours parler son patois en deuxième langue.

Ici aux US, la plupart des gens parlent anglais et leur langue maternelle à la maison.

Aussi, avec le progrès technique et en particulier des moyens de déplacement et de communication, les régions qui ont particularité tendent à devenir plus grandes ? Dans le cas du melting pot des US, tu pourrais dire que chaque pays apporte son "patois".

Ceci dit, interdire officiellement l'Occitan en battant les enfants, je suis contre, évidemment.

Je ne pense pas que ça se fasse encore?

Aussi, tu sais, il y en a eu beaucoup des langues qui sont mortes. Et il y en aura beaucoup, et il y aura de nouvelles langues aussi.

ʁəfələmələ

01:19

PISSED OFF Judges GET REVENGE on Trump FINALLY

►

La bataille juridique pour protéger les droits des Américains... 32 cas+.

Et évidemment pour combattre la pédo-MAGA-présidence.

Trump’s AWFUL PAST RESURFACES as HE SPIRALS

►

ʁəfələmələ

01:41

lapresse.ca/actualites/politique/2025-02-07/…

Les amis à F.Elon et DD sévissent !

ʁəfələmələ

02:09

De vrais leaders vs. MAGGOTS

World Leaders PUMMEL Trump and LAUGH IN HIS FACE

►

Ça fait même pas 3 semaines. Quand les Américains vont-ils se lever ??

temporary_user_name

04:34

CLASSIC case of the limitations of current generation LLMs

i'm looking at my flashcards and i get these two in a row and not for the first time it puzzles me

scout (noun) - éclaireur

scout (verb) - récurer

so i ask chatgpt, why isn't it éclairer or récureur, why is the verb different from the noun

and chatgpt is like

> You’re noticing an interesting point about the French language! The reason why we have récurer (to scrub or clean) and éclaireur (scout or guide) instead of récureur or éclairer has to do with the way French words evolve and the difference in their roots.

and i realize i misread the dictionary entry as SCOUT instead of SCOUR but like chatgpt was all set to pretend that my question made total sense

also, i've been watching nota bene on youtube and i noticed he doesn't pronounce the F in bœuf or œuf

is that a regional thing? i've never heard it left out before

Frank

"scout (verb) - récurer" ?

temporary_user_name

read on

Frank

only in the plural would you not pronounce that f

Hmmm - maybe in the singular also for boeuf sometimes

but more in the plural, I think

temporary_user_name

yes both times it was plural

Frank

abandon all hope ye who use LLMs

temporary_user_name

04:47

it's a very helpful tool!!

Frank

Lasciate ogni speranza, voi che usate LLMs, pour toi, @jlliagre

sometimes it's useful

as long as you don't need a proven reference, I guess

temporary_user_name

well like i can quickly ask it "is turlupiner literary" and it's like yes definitely

that's helpful

Frank

but is it true?

temporary_user_name

i think so!

Frank

because, actually, turlupiner is not literary...

it's a bit aged now, but would be rather informal

stella.atilf.fr/Dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/…;

temporary_user_name

04:51

it's pretty low in usage

books.google.com/ngrams/…

i take literary to mean "uncommon in regular modern speech"

Frank

indeed - but just because it has aged

by that definition, I guess it would be "literary"

ʁəfələmələ

05:03

These AIs have a very poor "understanding" of the French language.

I use it to summarize and translate and the result is comprehensible at best. It leans a lot on the English language, is not very natural, and fails at using context for word selection.

It requires tons of proofreading.

It shows the French language was a very small fraction of the training set.

It makes mistakes a beginner wouldn't make.

It is not consistent, from paragraph to paragraph, or even from sentence to sentence. It will "understand" a sentence but not the next, even though it is quite similar, it won't use the same words.

temporary_user_name

example?

ʁəfələmələ

For instance I was providing with a text on gas cylinders. It's obvious to anyone this is the context. But it still says « cylindres » and in French this is just a shape and cannot be used instead of « bouteille » in context.

Either it doesn't know the usage, doesn't understand the context, or basically promotes conflating English with French.

We've been warned about this. It anglicizes the French language.

Frank

among other issues

temporary_user_name

ah i most definitely would not have known that

idk if it's true to say a beginner would not make that mistake

ʁəfələmələ

So every time it tells you something, I would ask it "are you sure" then tell it your friend told you the opposite and he's a native speaker then watch what it says. Maybe it will break under pressure.

temporary_user_name

05:13

lmao

ʁəfələmələ

Maybe, maybe not.

Frank

again, if you need a reference, be very very careful

those tools are not references

even the creators of those tools know that

since they are trying hard to fix that

with eg RAG and what not

ʁəfələmələ

DeepL fails less than those AI and it's based on a LLM from what I understand, but they must have curated their set or used a specialized set.

Training Ais on all the ever dancing crap of the world was a mistake.

Frank

ʁəfələmələ

When these do surgery on you you will feel the pain no doubt.

Frank

05:16

"Bluffer" is the very best word here.

ʁəfələmələ

I watched video creation using those and the result is utterly pitiful. Most of the time it lifts from some video game, usually a well known FPS, like counterstrike or what not. It's utter garbage.

Frank

it will not create anything really new

ʁəfələmələ

It introduces clipping, fucked up geometry. It makes you laugh for sure, but it's shit.

With painting or images it just rips off real creators and artists. It waters down their talent, their IP, their art.

It's all muddled down like fuckin' goo.

Then they use that shit to clean up footage and introduce butt holes in people's face and uncanny valley weirdness all over the place... but amazing... hair.

Wtf.

You can tell I love this shit.

So caveat emptor.

It will make this world even more average than it already is.

Ultimately, bottom of the barrel like.

As we're all hired to proofread and clean up the mess it spreads.

While energy is used to generate that crap.

A great future for all mankind.

We'll be mopping the digital floor for generations.

But it's the ultimate UX because it's "conversational". Man.

Ça a l'air que j'ai découragé l'autre...

Ok ok /rant.

Peut-être que c'est ça qui va remplacer les employés fédéraux haha.

Frank

05:33

Si y'a encore un seul employé fédéral...

Le truc que j'aime pas c'est l'élimination des budgets pour la recherche en biologie.

ʁəfələmələ

Stargate.

Frank

Ca va faire mal. Je serais pas surpris si l'année prochaine on n'a même pas de vaccin pour la grippe, par exemple.

ʁəfələmələ

Il va y avoir au moins Elon et ses interns. Ouais, bien j'avais lu à propos de Kennedy mais quand je l'ai entendu parler j'ai été vraiment troublé.

Frank

Des gens vont mourir aux US même.

ʁəfələmələ

Ouais, c'est épouvantable. Des enfants même, suite à toutes ces sornettes sur les vaccins.

Frank

05:36

Moi j'irai me faire vacciner à Vancouver. Faut vraiment que je vois comment me faire soigner de l'autre côté de la frontière si besoin.

ʁəfələmələ

C'est incroyable d'avoir un vaccin de Moderna gratuit inventé aux États-Unis avec un vaccin contre l'influenza, alors qu'une bonne partie des Américains crachent là-dessus.

Frank

Sélection naturelle - mais il faut aller jusqu'au bout de ses idées: si tu refuses le vaccin, ne demande pas à ce qu'on te soigne (à bien plus cher) après.

ʁəfələmələ

Je peux pas comprendre. Mentir à propos de ta business, des gens tordus ça a toujours existé, mais mentir systématiquement sur tous les sujets en même temps comme les Républicains, je peux pas comprendre.

La sélection naturelle des enfants, des vieillards et des gens malades ??

Non sequitur.

Frank

J'espère que ça va finir par leur retomber dessus, parce qu'un jour ou l'autre, ça sera un mensonge de trop, et les gens verront bien que c'est du bidon.

Oui, je sais. Ca serait la sélection naturelle si ça s'arrêtait à ceux qui refusent le vaccin, mais ils mettent tout le monde en danger.

ʁəfələmələ

Bien le Treasury ça frappe fort. Parce que la vie privée c'est un sujet sensible des deux côtés du spectre politique.

Et il n'est pas élu.

Et la constitution n'autorise pas un grand nombre de ces décrets.

Frank

05:42

Bah, ils finiront par toucher quelque chose où ils licensieront dans un red state et peut-être que des républicains finiront par se réveiller ?

ʁəfələmələ

Certains décrets contreviennent directement aux protections constitutionnelles et ont vocation à les supplanter.

Frank

Oui - les lawsuits commencent.

ʁəfələmələ

Bourbon hahah. Le Canada a compris la recette.

Touche au Bourdon, au jus d'orange et ouch.

Frank

C'est le seul contrepoids, vu que le Congrès est paralysé.

ʁəfələmələ

Oui.

Frank

05:43

Soit paralysé, soit vendu à orange man, c'est pas beau à voir.

ʁəfələmələ

Mais si ils n’obéissent pas aux injonctions, it leads us down a dark path.

Probablement une guerre civile.

Frank

Oui, y'a ça aussi.

ʁəfələmələ

Les oeufs pourraient être le déclencheur... c'est drôle mais c'est pas drôle.

Ça peut être n'importe quoi, tout le monde est armé.

1000 personnes avec un AR, tout est possible.

Frank

C'est pas gai tout ça. Bon, allez bonne nuit!

ʁəfələmələ

Salut !

Dannyu NDos

09:38

Les fantômes et les lutins sont la plus facile à dessiner parce qu'ils n'existent pas.

jlliagre

10:30

@DannyuNDos Prouve le !

jlliagre

10:44

@Lambie Yes, you did. You confused answered question with answer to a question.

Frank

15:52

Bonjour!

C'est le weekend, on n'a rien à faire, t'as quelqu'un qu'on pourrait suer pour se faire de l'argent de poche, @jlliagre ?

Lambie

16:18

And the French gov needs to do better with its English: france.fr/en/destination/saint-pierre-et-miquelon So bad.

@jlliagre So what was the bug you claimed I found and which I didn't realize I had found? Hm?

Is it this? Which you said? |The bug is that you can ask for a question to be closed as a duplicate (this is fine)| The duplicate is not the question, it's the fact a question has already been answered.

Lambie

17:09

@jlliagre I have no idea what you mean or where I supposedly did that. There are answered questions and unanswered questions. That's what I mentioned.

ʁəfələmələ

17:47

lapresse.ca/international/europe/2025-02-08/…

Les Européens ont l'occasion de prévenir un sabotage similaire à ce que fait Trump en détruisant l'extrême-droite préalablement.

Ces gens-là veulent détruire les institutions de l'Union et saboter la lutte aux changements climatiques. Les migrations sont un conséquence de l'incurie des ignorants et de ceux qui savent mais ne veulent rien faire. Pas une directive de l'Union. Mais la propagande est en marche.

Luttez contre les collabos !

Comme lors de la 2e.

jlliagre

@Lambie Oui, le gouvernement français, qui comme chacun sait, a pour mission de traduire les dépliants publicitaires de St Pierre et Miquelon, doit être renversé ! Bailleroux à la roue !

@Lambie Oui, il s'agit bien de ce bug. Et tes questions confirment bien que tu l'as découvert sans t'en rendre compte. Procédons par ordre. Tu es d'accord que tu as demandé il y a deux ou trois jours la fermeture de la question Symbolism of the name Red Rose in Chapter 8 of The Scarlet Letter ?

Frank

Oui, il faut fermer car c'est un méchant livre.

jlliagre

@Frank Tu me fais suer !

La Lettre écarlate (roman)

La Lettre écarlate (titre original en anglais : The Scarlet Letter) est un roman américain de Nathaniel Hawthorne, publié en 1850. == Résumé == La Lettre écarlate relate l'histoire d'Hester Prynne, une jeune femme vivant dans une communauté puritaine de la colonie de la baie de Massachusetts. L'action du roman se situe entre 1642 et 1649. Hester Prynne, au début du roman, se voit condamnée par la société à porter sur la poitrine la lettre 'A', qui symbolise initialement l'adultère, mais dont la signification change au cours du roman, 'A' pouvant désigner Aptitude ou Ange. En effet, elle est accusée...

Frank

18:08

Oui. Terrible. Tragique.

Lambie

18:51

@jlliagre Yes, because in the LIST it showed up as an A and a Q, which I didn't know was not a duplicate, I guess. Is that a crime? Instead of trying to understand me, you just say these sarcastically-inspired statements. Whereas I was trying to understand why it was not considered a duplicate. But you said it was a bug, then you showed the Celine example (with an A and a Q). So, I guess it is not a bug or a duplicate. The system just lists both. So, you are wrong, too.

jlliagre

@Lambie D'accord. Donc tu as demandé la fermeture d'une question parce que tu pensais qu'elle était dupliquée. Ce n'est pas un crime, mais des modérateurs essaient de lutter contre les demandes de fermetures non justifiées. Qu'est-ce qui t'a conduit à penser que cette question était dupliquée ?

Lambie

19:12

@jlliagre J'ai déjà expliqué tout ça. [soupir]

jlliagre

@Lambie Tu n'as pas lu la question ?

jlliagre

19:29

@Lambie J'imagine qu'avant de faire apparaître cette fameuse LISTE, tu as quand même d'abord lu la question. Puis tu t'es dit que la question te rappelait une autre question que tu avais déjà vu sur literature, non ?

Lambie

Just forget it. My thing was ONLY about the Literature site.

jlliagre

20:04

@Lambie Tu penses que ça n'aurait pas pu se passer ailleurs que sur le site literature ? Que l'incident est lié à ce site ?

temporary_user_name

21:11

you know how you can say "les amis" or "les enfants" to address a group

can you do that with any noun or is it just like these fixed expressions?

can i say "les filles" or "les garçons" or "les plombiers" to address groups of those entities ?

Frank

You can

Les gars

les plombiers, maybe less

if it's like a group of workers in a factory, and you are trying to rouse them, you would say "Ouvrières ! Ouvriers !"

like "Françaises ! Français !" in a political rally maybe

or "Citoyennes ! Citoyens !"

temporary_user_name

not "Les ouvrières" ?

Frank

Otherwise, "hé, les gars ! Devinez ce que je viens de voir !"

Not "Les ouvrières", no.

temporary_user_name

now why not

Frank

just because hahaha :-)

temporary_user_name

21:23

don't the workers deserve a definitive article? don't you believe in workers' rights?

this is some real anti-union BS

Frank

haha :-)

Similarly: "Camarades !", not "Les camarades !"

quoique

If you are really addressing a big group at the beginning of a speech, no definite article

temporary_user_name

Even a president addressing the nation wouldn't say "Les amis" ?

Frank

No. That would be "Citoyennes, citoyens", for sure.

Or "Françaises, Français"

temporary_user_name

sigh

Frank

don't worry - I doubt you will ever have to use that hahaha

temporary_user_name

21:34

probably not.

temporary_user_name

21:46

ok yeah wow before yesterday i had no idea the F in œufs and bœufs was silent, as well as the S in les os

are there any others i should know about like that?????

i'm watching a lot more youtube content in french now this year in pursuit of my goal of being able to understand spoken french with greater ease

so little gaps like these in my pronunciation knowledge are being ironed out

jlliagre

@temporary_user_name Instead of les amis, I believe mes amis would be more common.

Frank

Indeed

jlliagre

@temporary_user_name Les cerfs, les clefs, les nerfs but the F is silent in both the singular and the plural.

temporary_user_name

yeah i just learned it's silent in clef this week

i was almost embarrassed

shows how much more time ive spent reading than listening.

jlliagre

Although sometimes the F of cerf is pronounced, like in serf.

temporary_user_name

21:54

oh bien entendu

pourquoi pas

jlliagre

vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/23075/la-prononciation/…

Freedom of choice.

temporary_user_name

OMG i have mispronouncing cerf-volant too

FUCK man

jlliagre

For clef, you can remember that the word can be written clé too, so the F is mute.

temporary_user_name

like i have known from the first time i took a french course in middle school 22 years ago that z, n, d, t, s could all be silent

eventually i learned L could be, years later

it took WAY too long to realize M, P, and S were all silent in temps

and only now, 20 years in, have i realize this past couple months that fucking C and F are silent sometimes too

@jlliagre yeah it's not hard to remember i'm just sad it took this long to realize

jlliagre

@temporary_user_name How would you pronounce Meursault?

Frank

22:08

I would pronounce it "ay-tran-jay" myself

jlliagre

Comme c'est étrange !

temporary_user_name

the L and the T are silent

so....like Meurseau

jlliagre

Right!

How would you pronounce Montrachet?

temporary_user_name

ooh ones like that are more ambiguous because you have to know whether to treat it as Mon trachet or Mont rachet

hmm

i think i would likely say it as Mon traché

jlliagre

That's the usual mistake. The first T is silent because of what you guessed (Mont Rachet).

temporary_user_name

22:18

ah fuck im wrong

yep.

i checked on forvo after guessing

place-names require experience hearing them

i remember there was this one place somewhere out along one of the trains from paris whose name was just fucking bonkers

i wish i could remember

it was very atypical even for french

jlliagre

And you have places pronounced differently by the locals than the majority of the outsiders, like Auxerre or Bruxelles.

temporary_user_name

i'm looking for a map of train stops in île-de-france

jlliagre

L'Haÿ-les-Roses

temporary_user_name

Hay like Ail ?

jlliagre

Yes, the only French word with an umlaut on top of a Y.

temporary_user_name

22:23

that's a word??

not a place?

i cannot find this place, damn

jlliagre

Ok a proper noun.

temporary_user_name

i thought it was along OUIGO

jlliagre

From where to where ?

temporary_user_name

well it would've been from paris

i stayed there summer of 2016

and i remember seeing this stop along the map

and being like WTF pronunciation

it had like x and c and apostrophe or something

jlliagre

To the South ? West ?

temporary_user_name

22:25

not aix-en-provence

idk anymore, it was too long ago

Frank

ouigo?

temporary_user_name

it was just the weirdest place name i saw while i was there

ouigo is one of the train acronyms over there

Frank

not really

it's like inoi

inoui

these are train names to be fancy

or memorable

but not synonyms of "train" outright

temporary_user_name

> The literal translation of Ouigo from French to English is "yes go"; the name is also a play on words with the English homonym "we go."

oh ok not an acronym but w/e

the term for one of the networks / service providers

jlliagre

@temporary_user_name Bourg-en-Bresse ?

temporary_user_name

22:27

no that's easy

i'm telling you it was off the wall

jlliagre

Not that easy.

temporary_user_name

im just looking at a map of île-de-france now

jlliagre

Most people do not pronounce it the expected way.

temporary_user_name

huh i looked it up on forvo and it sounded as expected

how do most people say it then?

oh bourk ?

2 out of 3 were like that

jlliagre

Yes.

temporary_user_name

22:29

true that's unexpected

but also not a serious error

even a french person might say that wrong if they weren't from near there

jlliagre

Right.

temporary_user_name

whereas if i go over there and say cleFs people know immediately im american

it'd take a long fuckin time for them to not know anyway, but i still try to minimize errors like that

in truth, my pronunciation is actually really good. my biggest failing point is always just using the wrong word by anglicizing, or small grammatical failures

like the other day....opposite instead of opposé

Frank

are you also looking for the elusive nativvvv essence?

temporary_user_name

i mean, i have always wanted to be bilingual

it's why i practice this daily and have for so long

i hate being monolingual

Frank

there are many levels and side quests to get to that storied and fabled ultimate level

temporary_user_name

22:32

i could probably get away with saying im bilingual at this point, even if my french is often imperfect

but i feel i have a long way to go yet

Frank

and you need to fight the Final Boss

temporary_user_name

which is???

Frank

it's a double final boss

@jlliagre and me

we'll give you a final exam

including a commentaire composé, a résumé, a dissertation, and a sonnet to compose

and a dictée of course

temporary_user_name

LOL

okay i remember that this place name i'm trying to think of was one of the X-sur-Y ones, i'm PRETTY sure. but all the ones i'm seeing are normal pronunciations, nothing weird. i can't find the crazy one.

Frank

Bur-sur-Yvettes

Montepaz-sous-Bauzon

There are many "-sur-" and "-sous-"

jlliagre

22:36

Bures-sur-Yvette (there are several Bures but only one Yvette).

Frank

Bures - Haven't been there in a long time

It's a very important city, @temporary_user_name

you should know that one

jlliagre

Gif-sur-Yvette, Villebon-sur-Yvette.

temporary_user_name

no it was more broken than those

i swear it was like....Oc'y-sur'ecq or something fucked up like that

a really, really atypical combination of letters

is the F silent in gif there btw?

jlliagre

Le Vésinet-Le Pecq

Frank

Plouelec'y-sur-Trougadecq, c'est plutôt en Bretagne

jlliagre

22:45

Montcuq?

temporary_user_name

now that is pretty close to what i'm talking about

@Frank it isn't the same one i'm thinking of, but the spelling issues are the same as i remember

i have NO fucking idea how to pronounce that

it was a lot like that one

Frank

Oui, Montcuq, je crois.

You know, nobody knows how to pronounce it unless you live there. Don't worry.

jlliagre

@Frank There are people living in Montcuq !?

Frank

Ca, ça serait à toi de nous le dire... je ne suis pas trop versé sur Toncucq.

@jlliagre en.wiktionary.org/wiki/crawl_up_someone%27s_ass

Relaté.

jlliagre

Frelaté, even.

jlliagre

23:04

Montcuq, de la blague au festival | Franceinfo INA

►

dailymotion.com/video/x382i52

Transcript for