The Litter Box

Sarov

00:30

@C.Koca stubborn negligence?

Elmy

12:32

@Sarov "I want to save money so I postulate that THIS CAT IS HEALTHYYYYY!!!!"

Sarov

13:08

@Elmy Ah. I wasn't clear what exactly the OP meant by 'I made sure it's healthy, there are no infections'.

Allison C

13:36

@Sarov Yeah, if you just read the comments OP makes it sound like they took the cat to a vet, but if you actually look for that information, it's pretty clear they just assume the cat is healthy and never actually had a vet look at her, which is incredibly frustrating.

Your cat is showing signs of being unwell, that's not "healthy"

Sarov

This stack must be incredibly frustrating.

Allison C

I mean, at least I haven't gotten hassled by mods for correcting their misspellings or been downvoted to oblivion because I gave a right answer but people didn't like that answer... looking at you, LifeHacks and Seasoned Advice.

Elmy

Fortunately it's a rare occurance. Most people come here because they worry for their pets and sometimes OPs even write answers like "I'm back from the vet and they said..."

I'm active in a few small stacks and was active in a few big stacks and I find Pets and Arts&Crafts to be the least frustrating of them all.

Sarov

Huh.

C.Koca

14:23

I just didn't like the approach of the OP. Some people might not have access to the vet or they might be too poor to afford it. If he had said it, we would still help as much as we could without assuming that the cat is healthy.

Sarov

Right.

Allison C

16:42

It feels about one comment/edit away from the attitude of "Of course I haven't taken my pet to a vet, they only want money!"

Wolgwang

16:53

Do pets help in overcoming depression?

Journeyman Geek

Well - yes and no

getting a pet because you are depressed is a terrible idea

But I think an existing pet can help you through depression (from experience) and well, being around animals can be nice.

If you're functional enough, the routine of having a pet is good too... I know there's some days I just couldn't do anything and yet...

"Its 4, need to walk the dog"

Wolgwang

@JourneymanGeek Why??

Journeyman Geek

@Wolgwang you're focused on you, not the pet.

And there's a certain amount of emotional labour involved

Sarov

Depends on the situation imo. If you live with non-depressed people who are on-board? Could be a good approach.
Or just get a pet rock.

Allison C

They can definitely be part of helping, because they do give you an outward focus you have to deal with (and many of them will make you deal with it). As someone who's struggled there, I'm definitely in a better state with my cats around.

And when I've been in a rough patch, the routine of "I have to get up to feed the cat(s), make sure they have water, and make sure the litterbox is clean" helps prevent things from being worse than they are, but if you're already in a bad spot then you wouldn't want to purely depend on that.

Wolgwang

17:13

I was going to recommend a pet to someone... now that's a hard decision. :-/

Journeyman Geek

@Wolgwang ah in that case - volunteering might be a good option

Sarov

@Wolgwang Pet plant.

Less devastating if it dies.

Allison C

Regardless of mental state, a pet also has to fit with someone's lifestyle. I don't have dogs, because things like regular walks, baths, etc, are not things I necessarily want to deal with. Feeding and litter box cleaning are fine for me, though.

I only recently added aquaria to my pets, and I need to do better with the routine of cleaning them (though I do remember to feed them :) )

Journeyman Geek

While I'd love to have a dog again, I can't cause I work shifts

If I get a job that allows me a more... regular lifestyle, or better yet remote work, I'd probably start doing a little planning (In terms of where I'd get the dog from - since adopting a random mutt is tricky if you live in publc housing here), where I'm living (my current neighbourhood is dog friendly to a fault...)

Allison C

17:31

Housing does definitely have to be a consideration... here, with dogs, you have to consider if you're in a municipality or rental property that has breed or size restrictions, or for rental properties in general whether you can have one at all.

More places are at least "pets allowed" ("pet friendly" is a step even better, the last apartment I had was in that category), but there's still a lot that don't allow any kind of pet.

With cats, the issue I had historically was the requirement to have the cat declawed, which is starting to fade a bit ("pets allowed" places still might have it, though, while "pet friendly" places don't)

Wolgwang

Thank you all for the inputs.

Sarov

17:51

@AllisonC Why the issue, out of curiosity?

Allison C

@Sarov I refuse to declaw. It's an unnecessary and cruel procedure that can cause problems for the cat later in life, and 99.9% of the time only benefits the owner, while causing harm to the recipient of the procedure. (In rare occasions, a partial declaw may be medically necessary)

Sarov

In what way is it cruel? As far as I'm aware, a properly-performed declaw surgery is supposed to be painless.

(And back when I researched it, my findings were that later issues only crop up when the vet botches the procedure.)

Allison C

It's removal of a significant portion of each digit on the cat's paw; over time, this causes issues with the tendons in the paws, that are no longer properly anchored at the end and don't stretch properly, and can cause painful deformities in the paws later

Pain in the paws, whether immediate or long-term, can lead to litter box problems, something that most people do not have the patience to truly address, which leads to cats being surrendered or euthanized through no fault of their own.

If a cat gets out, it now lacks its natural defenses. It can neither flee vertically (the natural path of flight for a cat, because most predators can't follow), nor fight back.

Because the cat can't scratch properly on scratching surfaces, they can develop weakness and arthritis as a result of not being able to do the stretches and motions associated with "sharpening their claws."

trond hansen

declawing is to remove the entire outer digit of the finger,it is not legal to do it where i live.

Allison C

And none of that is necessary. I would rather have a healthy cat that's comfortable and happy through its life than have carpet. (I loathe carpet anyway.)

Journeyman Geek

18:03

@Sarov you're cutting off the cats knuckles more or less

Same reason I'm against docking and cropping

trond hansen

Onychectomy

Onychectomy, popularly known as declawing, is an operation to remove an animal's claws surgically by means of the amputation of all or part of the distal phalanges, or end bones, of the animal's toes. Because the claw develops from germinal tissue within the third phalanx, amputation of the bone is necessary to fully remove the claw. The terms "onychectomy" (origin: Greek ὄνυξ onyx, nail + ἐκτομή ektomē, excision) and "declawing" imply mere claw removal, but a more appropriate description would be phalangectomy, excision of toe bone. Although common in North America, declawing is considered an...

Allison C

Oh, and if not done properly, the claw can grow back, pierce back through the skin, and come back painful and deformed.

Journeyman Geek

(Ash was docked, but... he was adopted so... we get a pass)

Allison C

@JourneymanGeek I give the same pass to anyone who adopts a cat that's already declawed; at least their previous owner surrendered them instead of putting them down, and frequently the person doing the adopting is prepared for the issues ahead

Journeyman Geek

Yup

but in all cases they're fundamentally kinda... wrong

Allison C

18:06

I 100% agree

Journeyman Geek

@AllisonC legally you can't have cats in public housing here but.... for most part, its not enforced unless there's complaints

Allison C

@JourneymanGeek Here, rental housing is primarily privately owned, so each owner can set their own rules (within the rules of the municipality), so you do get a mix of whether or not cats are allowed

trond hansen

please do not mention declawing again EVER it makes me ill.

Sarov

I dunno, every single cat my family's ever owned was declawed and didn't have any issues with it. Granted, not statistically significant.

Allison C

My last place, being "pet friendly," also allowed most dog breeds (there were about a dozen restricted ones), and had an off-leash dog park area on the grounds

Journeyman Geek

18:11

@AllisonC We have a very wierd list of 50 approved breeds... some of which are rare

Allison C

@JourneymanGeek Maybe it's cultural, but that just seems like such an odd way to go about things

I get whitelisting in infosec, but not in breed restrictions :)

Journeyman Geek

@AllisonC government!

@Sarov Well - the reasons not to were sound. And well, now that you know what it actually entails...

Sarov

At least makes a bit more sense than blacklisting, imo.

Journeyman Geek

@Sarov oh there's breed blacklists too

Sarov

@JourneymanGeek Oh, I always knew what it entails.

Elmy

18:13

We currently own 2 cats, have alsways owned at least one cat for at least 2 decades and our home is full of carpet and furniture. The claws were never any problem at all. The dog cause more damage with his claws than all cats combined

Sarov

But we had exclusively indoor cats and it was being done by a vet we trusted (a relative), so.

Journeyman Geek

Aside from the HDB lists, there's project adore - where they're experimentally rehousing "approved sized" mutts once they're old enough to know

@Sarov @Elmy IIRC you can clip a cats claws safely (for the cat) no?

Sarov

@JourneymanGeek Okay that's weird. :P I could see "We've tested these 50 breeds and there are no problems but we'll disallow any others just in case".

Elmy

@JourneymanGeek No, you can clip a dogs nails without much of a problem, but for cats it's always painful

Sarov

But "No pugs, because they're weird."??

Elmy

18:15

The only time we ever hat to shorten claws of a cat was when one of ours was injured and couldn't do it anymore himself

Journeyman Geek

@Sarov Oh, its literally based off size

Allison C

@JourneymanGeek You can absolutely trim a cat's claws safely and comfortably

As long as you aren't cutting into the quick, at most it's just an annoyance because they have to sit still for a minute

Elmy

All you need is to offer a scratching post and they do the shortening all by themselves

Journeyman Geek

(I donno, most cats I encounter are semi feral and... uh...)

Well used to :( they got moved for some reason

Sarov

@JourneymanGeek Most cats I encounter can't even hunt bugs right!

Allison C

18:17

@Sarov Even "exclusively indoor cats" aren't guaranteed to be exclusively indoor cats; they can get out, and if so, they're at a strong disadvantage with nowhere to flee and no sufficient way to fight back.

Journeyman Geek

@Sarov oh..

Elmy

@AllisonC I'm not so sure about that. Our tomcat always complained right in the moment the vet clipped a claw, although the vet was very competent and trusted by us. And I checked afterwards that the quick wasn't damaged

Journeyman Geek

we used to have a black cat that stocked and chased off cobras.

stalked

however that's spelt

Sarov

o,O

Elmy

Wow

Journeyman Geek

18:18

also used to fall asleep upside down in a drain... and people would think it was dead.

@Elmy I think the cat kept its distance, and cobras would probably be getting out of the way cause its safer

Allison C

@Elmy I clip all my own cats' claws. Two out of three barely notice, the third just doesn't like being held and particularly held upside down, plus her claws are tricky anyway (black claws and lots of fur making them hard to see) so she fusses, but none ever express pain unless I accidentally hit the quick

(which I have only done once, thanks to wiggling)

Journeyman Geek

Pythons were the big danger. My favourite local cat (a one eyed ginger) met his end due to one I am told

Allison C

Most of my cats growing up were working cats, taking out vermin on the farm I lived on. My current ones have been having a blast all summer with the flies sneaking in.

Sarov

@AllisonC Oh, ours enjoy the flies... they're just not very good at it!

Allison C

@Sarov Well there's a difference between having fun and actively working to kill it. :) Mine mostly like the fun of chasing them around, though occasionally they do manage to catch one.

Sarov

18:23

@AllisonC Given that they do sometimes succeed, I assume they're (poorly) hunting rather than just playing. But I could be wrong.

Then we have cat A who play-hunts cat B. Cat B is not amused.

Allison C

@Sarov They vary rarely actually eat anything they catch; much of the time, they don't do much more than "wound" or catch-and-release so they can chase it again. (I've seen the same with mice growing up, where a "bored" cat would catch a mouse, release it, catch it again, release it again, and so on.)

Sarov

Cats are evil.

Journeyman Geek

lol

I blame neotany

Sarov

18:44

@JourneymanGeek I remember hearing that modern cats are remarkably similar, genetically, to ancient cats. So would neoteny even apply?

Sarov

20:14

internal screaming

My search: "How to do X?"
SO Question title: "How to do X?"
Question Summary: "Everyone knows how to do X, but how to do Y given X?"

Journeyman Geek

20:33

SE search is terrible :D

@Sarov Catch and release is play...

and while genetically similar, a lot of the traits that make good housepets is neotany

Allison C

@Sarov I personally love searching for "How to do X with Y," getting a result of "How to do X with Y" and the summary "I know how to do X with Y, but how do I do it in Z?"

Another one I love, "How to do X with Y," and all the answers being "Use Z."

Sarov

@AllisonC TBF, frame challenges are often valid.

Allison C

@Sarov They can be, but if I need to know how to do it with Y, because my workplace isn't using Z, then they aren't helpful.

Sarov

Fair. In that case I'd probably make a specific question "How to do X without Z?".

Allison C

Oh I don't ask questions on SO, I just read other people's until I find an answer, or find enough to cobble something together.

(time to go google my current issue and see if I get any SO links)

Sarov

20:46

That's what I do, until I can't.

Allison C

well this time I asked "How to do X in Y," found a question "How to do X in Y," with the question body "How to do Z in Y?" (Thankfully, at least a good portion of answers are answering the title, because the question body doesn't make a lot of sense.)

Sarov

21:03

For me it was stackoverflow.com/questions/12824879/…

Allison C

Wow, very helpful /s

I'm starting to wonder if what I want to do can actually be done... I kind of don't think it's all that workable and I need to find a way around it.

Sarov

22:52

@AllisonC FWIW, vet says "It's possible to develop issues later in life, but in my opinion, if you do it very well and have really great pain relief, then it's fine. The problem is that a lot of vets don't do it very well."

Allison C

23:04

@Sarov I'm still going to disagree, considering that other sources indicate that "the vets who advocate most for declaw are the ones who profit well from declaw." I've seen the issues from just a medically-necessary partial declaw, I wouldn't force that on a cat who doesn't need it.

Sarov

23:24

@AllisonC Otherwise would be weird, though. Like, can you imagine vegetarians being the demographic that profits the most from selling meat?

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