The Litter Box

Sarov

00:38

@lila Hah! Of course. I can't damage my brand, now, can I?

(I'm hoping the mimicking of my post was meant to be humourous and not disapproving.)

lila

@Sarov Haha mostly humorous but it is still always a little underwhelming if I put some effort into structuring all my regurgitated words into coherent message and then get two-word response :D

Sarov

In my defense, I was distracted at the time. And I generally prioritize a short fast response over a long slow one. #agile

lila

@Sarov Humorously-disapproving.

Sarov

01:11

As long as you weren't taking offense to my previous comment. There's a fine line between aiming for quality and running afoul of the 'be nice' initiative that's become increasingly militarized over time.

lila

01:32

@Sarov Haha no, relax and chill out, I wasn't taking any offense :D I am sorry if that came off as demanding or anything, I am 90% just teasing you :D I do not think I have ever been offended in this chat.

@Sarov And my overly unenthusiastic and dismissive "Humorously-disapproving." was allusion to your "Sound legit." :D

Sarov

@lila Far too many syllables to be a properly dismissive allusion. :P

lila

@Sarov Cool.

:D

lila

01:50

By the way, could you, pretty please with sugar on top, consider starting to do some activity on Pets SE, like answering or asking some questions? It is much fun, I promise!

Sarov

I'm not really a big pets guys, though! I mean, yeah, I've lived with them all my life, but they're my family's pets, not mine. OCD makes actually interacting with them limited.
And it's not like I'd ever have a question, 'cause of having a vet in the family. Why ask strangers on the internet when expert is closer?

lila

Oh okay I understand, it is interesting with OCD, is that the type of OCD that makes you avoid pathogens, etc. ?

Sarov

Kind of. It's more a general 'dirty' association rather than actual germs, for me. Similar concept but less rational.

Makes cleaning litterbox hell the few times I've had to do it.

But yeah, the only time I actually my own pet was when I was young and had a pet rat.
I really wasn't that good of an owner. Feel sorry for the guy, now.
Rats are dang smart, though. I'd feed him once a month by dumping a huge pile of food in his cage and he'd ration it as needed.

lila

02:38

@Sarov Nice! And yes, rats are one of the most intelligent animals, they are much smarter than both dogs and cats.

Nai54

02:53

@lila I know that in the back of my head, but I emotionally feel that dogs should be smarter, as you rarely see rats do tricks or show compassion... [I'm a pretty big dog fan] ;)

Sarov

I remember reading once about how a bunch of scientists, wanting to study something, dumped a bunch of rats on an island.

They came back a month later and were perplexed at the fact that there were no rats on the island anymore.

They had swum to the neighbouring island.

Journeyman Geek

03:11

@Nai54 people don't bother to train em

Nai54

@JourneymanGeek Or do they not train them because they can't... chicken or egg? :D

Journeyman Geek

Working rat

A working rat is any rat which is trained for specific tasks as a working animal. In many cases, working rats are domesticated brown rats. However, other species, notably the Gambian pouched rat, have also been trained to assist humans. == Domesticated brown rats as working animals == Pet rats Rattus norvegicus, such as fancy rats and laboratory rats, have been trained for various jobs: === Forensics === In the Netherlands, police have begun using brown rats to sniff out gunshot residue. Ed Kraszewski, spokesman for the task force, has said that the rats are easier and cheaper to train than dogs...

Nai54

@JourneymanGeek I suggested an edit to your post on the main meta about community manager hiring but it was automatically rejected because you were making an edit at the same time. Could you take a look? Should I resuggest it?

See meta.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/78017

Journeyman Geek

03:27

lol

I pinged you on tavern on the meta about it :D

one sec

Everything after the first 2 paras is good

resuggest it - first para is very much my intent, second para got substancially changed.

Sorry about that

I might be a little frustrated + I did that edit on my phone

Stephie

04:59

@JosephCasey that’s super easy to explain and has two factors:

You are actively drawing attention to your posts and you are doing it in two ways:

First, most users have “active questions” as sorting criterion on the main site, because that’s the default setting and quite useful. Each edit pushes the Q/A to the top of that list where it’s seen by users, including those that aren’t here like 24/7. They then vote as they see fit. Having them come back to reverse a downvote is really tough. Most casual users won’t bother. There’s a reason SE usually offers a hat for that kind of improvement during Winter Bash.

Second, your constant nagging here may also contribute, especially when you claim here that you have improved posts, why don’t we go look instead of letting us go about it as it fits our schedule...Users expect to see a major difference (having given you so much advice that they could have written the post themselves three times over) and then it’s, like, meh.

Frankly, let’s look in more detail at that biting cat post.

Version 1: no effort just copied from a (not exactly high quality) web source.

Stephie

05:20

This means that you have either not read, not understood or ignored the Help Center instructions on how to use material from other sources. And it didn’t fit the question.

Version 2: now the copied text is gone and the post transfixed to a classic link-only answer.

That is clearly explained in the very elementary How do I write a good answer?, one of the two basic articles new users are directed to.

Version 3: You included some text from the link as to probable causes (way outside the asker’s influence), commenting that the answer to the actual question is a) still behind the link and b) that you can at best speculate what could work.

Why speculate what there’s already a well-researched, highly upvoted post?

Stephie

06:14

Version 4: Included a random action from your source. This is the first version that can be seen an an answer. But one measure without an explanation why exactly this attempt is likely to be successful is pretty much meaningless. It’s not a high-quality answer deserving an upvote.

Version 5 can be ignored as it doesn’t bring a change of content, just a formatting fix. Another user is doing the customary quotation style. It improves readability by making clearer what is your text and what isn’t. And considering the instructions you were given here, we wonder why someone else had to do it for you.

It still isn’t much of an “own answer”, mostly two introductory sentences for two block quotes.

On sites with a larger active user base, versions 1-3 would have been deleted already by the community. On sites I mod, I would have done the same, leaving you to improve the deleted post until it meets basic quality standards. Then it would perhaps be allowed a comeback via undelete.

The moderators here have shown the patience of a saint. I am very impressed, but will frankly admit that I don’t necessarily agree with that approach. I sense some tension in the community that has me worried.

2

@JosephCasey and before you go nicknaming an user, please read the Code of Conduct. Using the name and pronoun exactly as indicated by a user is very, very important on SE. It’s considered one of the most basic courtesies and non-negotiable. Without going into details, ignoring that could get a user in a lot of trouble.

Stephie

06:45

If you want stats, you could take a look at the Data Explorer - maybe the numbers here are easier to understand than our verbal advice?

Run the query, sort by average score or so.

And my personal issue with casual, not well-researched answers is that this sites is about humans and pets that depend on their humans. If a user posts a crappy “try this random thing I found on a website” on a coding site, the code won’t work or a build fails. No biggie, that can be fixed. Here, those vulnerable creatures in our care will suffer the consequences of bad advice. Wanting to help is good. Being very certain that the given advice doesn’t cause harm is more important.

4

I downvote to indicate posts that I consider no good advice. I consider that my duty and reputation points well-spent.

That doesn’t apply to you alone, @JosephCasey, I always follow that personal rule.

SerenaT

09:36

Good morning

Stephie

Morning!

SerenaT

How are you?

Stephie

Busy. Trying to wrap my head around project management numbers for a team that does cross-functional work.

SerenaT

Oh are you a project manager? Sounds complicated

Stephie

No, I am an agile master, working for two teams that belong together. At the moment I am holding the fort for the project manager.

SerenaT

09:44

I see. Stephie Protector of the Project!

Stephie

LOL!

I should put that on my business cards.

Elmy

@Stephie With a cool logo, like a Captain America shield or a super hero mask or something

Stephie

Although, as SM, I’m rather “Protector of the Team”.

SerenaT

@Stephie Definitely

Stephie

It’s not a contradiction, though.

SerenaT

09:54

@Stephie Protector of Scrum if you will :D

Stephie

Na, that’s just a process. Putting the focus on that, would hurt the first principle of agile.

People over processes and tools.

SerenaT

That is not what we are taught but then again I feel like everybody has their own Scrum they use

I also did an internship that sold Agile but did no such thing in practice

Stephie

Don’t get me started...

SerenaT

Yes yes its crazy

The really important question is: What am I getting for lunch?

Stephie

What do you have on hand?

SerenaT

10:05

I am at work and did not bring anything
So I might have to go hunt something in the supermarket

They have fresh sushi which is always amazing but I had it a lot lately :D

Stephie

Ah

motosubatsu

@SerenaT I tried that once.. apparently my bow was "intimidating the other customers" and "could put someone's eye out"

SerenaT

@motosubatsu Unbelievable...

Journeyman Geek

@motosubatsu just how much gel were you using?

motosubatsu

@JourneymanGeek lol

SerenaT

10:10

I am thinking about a pretzel and some cream cheese

I am so food motivated :D

I always think about my next meal

motosubatsu

10:20

I've got a tuna and cucumber baguette waiting in the fridge, I'm sure it's a suitable nice tuna baguette, the only problem is I'm not sure if I actually want it

Stephie

@SerenaT make that “next few meals” for me. I am the main cook, though.

Today: Clams and prawns in a tomato-garlic-lemon-herb sauce.

Over Fusilli (should have been spaghetti, but it was minor 1’s turn to choose).

Elmy

@Stephie Wow, sounds nice. Hey, can I come over? ^^

SerenaT

10:39

I am coming toooo

Even though I just bought lunch but I mean that really sounds amazing

Stephie

You just have to be fast - you are competing with an ever-hungry male teen.

motosubatsu

@Stephie dangnabit.. now I'm sure I don't want the Tuna baguette

Stephie

11:00

@motosubatsu can you just pimp it a bit?

Some wasabi or a handful of watercress can do wonders.

SerenaT

Wasabi :[

Stephie

Ok.... how about some lemon (peel) then? Or sorrel? It’s just starting to appear here.

motosubatsu

@Stephie sadly not.. I'm at the office so it's a what-you-bring-with-you deal

Stephie

:(

Joseph Casey

11:55

Ok what did i miss?

SerenaT

You missed Stephie the Amazing Cook and Project Team Protector

Joseph Casey

Frick

@lila How does m post not answer the question? I specifically stated a way they can make the cat stop biting, and i gave the link as well.

Do you want me to post more ways

?

What should i do @SerenaT?

Add more ways? Or let my post get more downvotes?

Stephie

12:17

Have you read my extensive analysis of exactly that post? If yes, I don’t see how else we could explain...? At least I can’t.

Elmy

Would you please calm down and stop pinging people all the time? Your behavior has been very demanding and disrupting the last days. And I think we have told you several times how to improve your answers.

Joseph Casey

Elm

y

And i have done what you guys wanted.

Elmy

If your teacher asks you "When was XYZ elected president" and you answer "XYZ was born in 123" then you didn't answer the question. If someone asks "How can I stop my cat biting" and you answer "cats start biting when they are kittens" then you don't answer the question. I honestly don't know how else to explain... we have tried several times now

Joseph Casey

.

I added a link, And i stated a way to stop them from bititng, I answered the question.

what else do you want from me?

Stephie

Look at the time stamps. Lila’s “not an answer” comment was from before the last edit.

motosubatsu

12:25

@JosephCasey I'm not sure I can explain this any better than the existing (excellent) analyses from others but here goes.. Ask yourself why does your post answer the question? Why do you feel advice regarding kitten behavior apply to adult cats? Why do you believe the method you chose to extract from the link is the "correct" one?

Joseph Casey

.

motosubatsu

If you can answer those you can use that to form an answer of your own that you use the linked material to support

Allison C

13:33

@Stephie That looks FANTASTIC, I'm only on breakfast but I already have lunch envy :)

Joseph Casey

lol

i know what im having for lunch.

You know what, Screw it im deleting my crappy posts.

Ok

Last time, This is the last question im dong and hopefully i will get some positive attention. "How to stop gray parrot from biting?"

If i dont, im gone for good.

Good bye for now everyone, im not deleting my account but will be gone for a little.

lila

13:59

hi

Stephie

Hi! You are late today?

Long night?

Sarov

Morning.

Aw, I missed the Scrum/agile discussion.

Stephie

@Sarov always ready to continue ;-) Might be hard to stop me, though.

Sarov

Hahaha.

Probably best for us to not take over the Pets chat with PM nonsense...
(Insert joke about 'pet projects')

lila

@motosubatsu Hi welcome to Litter Box 2021, I know you from a lot of your posts on Q&A site but I have never seen you in this chat before (I have been here for about a year); I am really happy it's nice to see you here, please make yourself feel like you are at home.

motosubatsu

14:07

@lila hey :) yeah I was active in here a few years back but I don't think we ever overlapped - happy to be here :)

Journeyman Geek

14:21

@motosubatsu has (had?) a very pretty cat :D

Stephie

Oh? Pictures, @motosubatsu? Pretty please?

motosubatsu

give me a moment!

Nai54

@motosubatsu Nice to see you here too, we sometimes interact on Writing SE (you probably handle some of my flags as well) but the Writing chat rooms are so empty... I am usually far more active in here.

lila

@motosubatsu In the past I had always assumed that you are one of the many inactive users who had left the site at some point, but I also remember how at one point I also noticed how you changed cartoon-like duck into the current bathroom duck and I was surprised because why would inactive user change avatars? ^.^

motosubatsu

Journeyman Geek

14:32

He's... fluffier than I remember

motosubatsu

^ aforementioned kitty, forgive the slightly crappy pic it's all I had to hand

Allison C

He's adorable

SerenaT

So fluffy

Stephie

Oh my! How cute!

motosubatsu

that pic was taken after I had to trim about 75% of his ruff off due to tangles, here's one at about peak-fluffy

@Nai54 hehe.. yeah, small world! Good to see you!

SerenaT

14:37

There is so much cat in one cat

motosubatsu

@lila hehe.. yeah I've never really left, just busy with life and elsewhere on the network

@SerenaT there is.. I mean a lot of that is is fur but he's still quite a stocky kitty

Sarov

15:40

stocky (adj.)
1400, "made of wood," from stock (n. 1). Of plants, "of stout and sturdy growth" (not weedy) it is recorded from 1620s. Of persons, "thick-set," 1670s, suggestive of tree trunks, but compare also stock in sense of "trunk of the human body" (late 14c.).

Interesting. I never knew 'stocky' was relating to plants. Probably also related to plant stalks.

lila

Oh for me it reminds of "blocky" which is similar.

Joseph Casey

ok

i have one very good question.

who the heck, reset m rep?

im serious.

lila

It is not permanent; after suspension ends, it returns back to normal previous value.

Sarov

Huh, I didn't know suspension worked like that. Makes sense, I guess.

Joseph Casey

.

Allison C

15:51

@Sarov There's an article linked to the suspension warning that explains it, seems logical to me

Joseph Casey

so your telling me, that you guys can replok me for a certain amount of time?

lock*

Sarov

"relock"?

Joseph Casey

replock

rep lock

Sarov

Ah.

Joseph Casey

reputation lock

Allison C

15:53

@JosephCasey Read. stackoverflow.blog/2009/04/06/a-day-in-the-penalty-box/…

Joseph Casey

ye

but man

im willing to serve the time.

Allison C

No, you aren't. You've been given the opportunity, repeatedly, to voluntarily serve your own suspension, and every. Single. Time. You have failed to take a break. You have failed to make any effort to improve. You have failed to take any advice given to you.

Joseph Casey

even though i have no idea why im under suspension, im willing to serve the time AND what i will do with the time, is research more into that rep lock sstem.

Allison C

People have given you far too many chances at this point. People have been nice to you when you, quite honestly, do not deserve it any more. You have been a drain on this community. You are a problem user who seems determined to continue being a problem user.

Joseph Casey

.

..

ou know im going to pretend i didnt hear that.

Allison C

15:57

Go read the blog post that's linked on your suspended profile. Stop expecting literally everything to be spoon fed to you. Stop spamming the chat! Take some responsibility for your own behavior, which is the cause of the issue.

Of course you are! YOU DON'T HEAR ANYTHING. That's the problem.

lila

@JosephCasey Please check your e-mail, I do not know exactly how it works yet but there should be a custom message for you that explains this.

Allison C

You're causing strain on this community with your demanding attitude and low quality answers, and your insistence on not respecting anyone here.

Joseph Casey

@lila email? ok hang on.

dont see anyrhing.

outside emails are blocked.

Sarov

Just putting this here in case you don't read the article,

> (This should probably go without saying, but if the problem behaviors do continue beyond the timed suspension, your account is very likely to be permanently deleted.)

Joseph Casey

is my suspension the same thing?

The same date?

or was it extended?

and IK i read the pentalty box article sarov, thank you for that sliver of information i do not need burned into my head.

Sarov

16:10

> Your user page will have a visual indication that you are in timed suspension, and for how long.

Joseph Casey

wait

that part i need help with. wait, hang on

Sarov

> This account is temporarily suspended because of low-quality contributions. The suspension period ends in **7 days**.

https://pets.stackexchange.com/users/20192/joseph-casey?tab=summary

Joseph Casey

so basially you guys reset it to where its not on monday. You reset my edit suspension.. eh who cares, it will end in a week.

Im good,

Thank you and see you in a week. I like my site family but i cant do anything on here therefore im not needed nor wanted here.

Sarov

@JosephCasey Read. You have been instructed repeatedly to spend time reading existing posts.

If you disappear for a week then come back with the same approach, nothing will have changed.

Joseph Casey

Yes and i have.

I have read existing posts, and frankly im not the guy to Bold anything, or make things pretty. If you read pets.stackexchange.com/questions/27369/… or pets.stackexchange.com/questions/6009/… I have sources.

And i answered their question

And i still got 3 to 4 downvotes.

Apparently im not wanted or needed here. Ill just go make my own website.

until my suspension is over.

One of the sources being from me as well, thats good is it, or am i supposed to look up why a dog is barking.

If your expecting me to make my answers or questions pretty, then go ahead and ban me, because im not going to. I answered their questions with sources and if you have a problem with the quality, then go harass the source creators.

Im sorry for wasting your time, but I do things my way, even though i do allow people to recommend things to me, we all do things our own ways and i answer my questions a certain way, if you dont like it, then tell me so i can write my goodbye note.

Stephie

16:29

So, what else is going on?

Puppy (ha! As if!) has discovered flying insects.

Joseph Casey

But if you are going to downgrade me for doing things my own way, then I will resign from Pets.SE. You know i came here with a faint dream of making this site bigger and better. When you guys showed me respect, that dream got brighter and I made this my home, But now you guys are treating me like a parasite just trying to scrape me off. f you want me to change something on my answers, then tell me what you want me to change...

Stephie

He’ll try to catch them - with limited success, thankfully. As he’s been targeting bumblebees.

Any idea how to prevent him getting stung?
I mean, insect season has just started...

Joseph Casey

...Instead of saying that this answer is good enough, do more. An example is, "Hey Joseph, Mabey you should add another way of making your cat stop biting, you. I would gladly do that, But giving me a 7 day suspension because im not good enough for you, isnt helping me no matter how many times you tell yourselves.

and no

No idea how to prevent it stephie

Sorry.

Stephie

And unless we can get the full house remodel started (which is unlikely), there will be wasps under the roof.

Joseph Casey

And allison, Your supposed to research it, and i had a well craft answer for that parrot question until you guys bombarded it with downvotes. "So supportive".

Do what @lila did and recommend stuff to me instead of saying "Your not good enough, do better".

Thank you and see you in a week.

Sarov

16:35

@Stephie Has he been stung and is still trying?

Joseph Casey

Im going to write my resignation note now just in case.

Stephie

@Sarov no, he hasn’t been stung. But from the way he’s trying, it’s probably just a matter of time.

Sarov

Well, if he gets stung once, he'll probably be more careful.

Stephie

A blister on the snout is one thing, but if he gets it the wrong way, one time could be the last as well.

Sarov

Fair point.

Stephie

16:40

The cat is using his paws - that’s harmless.

Joseph Casey

Not nessesarily.

welp nope i said im gone

nvm

ignore me

motosubatsu

@Stephie one of my gf's cats will spot and hunt the tiniest of flies, it can keep her occupied for over an hour

Allison C

17:11

@JosephCasey Please go. All you've done since you showed up is sow discord in this community. You've been given advice repeatedly, and you've ignored it, which is why no one's giving it to you anymore. You earned your suspension, and your attitude is not going to make anyone want to reverse it.

Joseph Casey

Show*

and honestly allison you have No place to talk.

Allison C

@JosephCasey And as far as researching it? Literally copying the title of the question into google and pasting in the very first response is NOT researching. you've been told what to do. You refuse to take the answer. I'm done with you. Goodbye.

@Stephie Flying insects are exciting! My cats are starting to notice them and having a great time.

Joseph Casey

And its called using my resources, plus ill have you know, discord isnt that bad number one, and number two im a Administrator in MANY discord servers, so please do me a favor and dont talk to me or about me for a solid week. Good Day.

See you later @lila im taking a break.

Sarov

Not Discord, discord.

> noun: discord
> 1.
> disagreement between people.

Elmy

I kicked him...

Sarov

17:17

Ah k.

Allison C

I muted him so I don't have to deal with it anymore.

Joseph Casey

welp.

Stephie

@AllisonC Grasshoppers. Every summer.

Allison C

@Stephie We're heading to a place in the country once it's ready (it's not quite "move in" condition yet) but I expect mine will find those highly entertaining when we get there!

Stephie

@AllisonC see screenshot. Seems we had the same idea.

Allison C

17:25

Currently it's some small flying insects, and spiders. I have mixed feelings about them. I'm arachnophobic so I'm glad they're finding them so I can get rid of them, but I'm also not glad to know how many there are. Or to have Bea run across my face at night because one's crawling on the wall behind the bed.

@Stephie I may have taken your screenshot as inspiration :)

motosubatsu

@AllisonC as a fellow arachnaphobe I've always given my cats treats whenever they dispatch a spider

Stephie

The (ex) neighbor’s kitten was so excited, I think he was not far from a heart attack.

Allison C

@motosubatsu Sadly mine aren't quite dispatching them. Bea tries very, very hard, but they're very good at staying just out of range of her paws. She'll definitely get her favorite treat if and when she does get one!

Stephie

But he did get Chester moving.

And in a good, let’s play way, not in a how dare you show up in my kingdom way.

motosubatsu

@AllisonC my mum's cat is rather good at it I think - she tends to proudly display the remains near enough in the exact centre of the kitchen floor I'm told

Allison C

17:29

Impressive!

Stephie

Cool!

motosubatsu

yeah the apparently it happens way too often for the location to be coincidental - since my mother also hates spiders I suspect lavish treats follow every proudly displayed kill

Allison C

That could probably explain the display. "If she knows I took out another one, I'll get a treat that's even better than the spider!"

Stephie

Sigh. If I could teach Chester that trick... I’d be willing to pay with very good treats!

motosubatsu

@AllisonC indeed.. and I honestly don't think I've ever seen a live spider at my mum's place since she got Pru (the cat)

Stephie

17:36

But he can do “sit” and “down”.

Allison C

@motosubatsu Now I'm really impressed!

The only trick I've really got with mine is catching treats: youtu.be/8Ulic7PvSag

motosubatsu

@AllisonC it is cute though!

Stephie

Absolutely!

motosubatsu

anyhow folks.. I gotta run. The supermarket and the weekly shop calls

Allison C

@motosubatsu He taught it to himself! at some point he decided to sit back and make me throw the treats, and then started catching them

lila

18:39

@Nai54 Oh believe me, rats are extremely compassionate and capable of doing tricks, if rats were the size of dogs then they could turn out to be the dominant species of Earth instead of humans; rats form complex and sophisticated social structures and are unbelievably smart. I was and I am still thinking about getting a pair of pet rats, but for now I only have fish aquarium; I can leave aquarium for a few days and it self-sustains, while rats need daily cleaning.

Daily cleaning, I mean, cleaning their cage.

@motosubatsu Don't forget to take your bow and a few arrows :D

Nai54

@lila Yes, at that size they would form more complex relationships than dogs... but you won't be able to convince me that they would be dominant instead of humans :D

Sarov

I remember in UnderTale there's a line like 'The thought that the rat may one day hack into the high-tech safe and get the cheese fills you with determination'.

lila

Groooan, this is so cliche misconception that rats and mice love cheese, they don't, they mainly love grains :/

Allison C

And that's how we got cats. :) We as humans started storing grains, grains attracted rodents, rodents attracted cats and we encouraged them to stick around

lila

18:55

I know, but believe me or not I learnt it from this site (from Trond Hansen) ^.^

Nai54

@lila I found an interesting article, not quite related to rats, but considering what would happen if all animals were as intelligent as us. bbc.com/future/article/…

Sarov

With or without magic?

Allison C

@Nai54 I'd expect the cats to start pulling their weight instead of mooching off me for all their food and treats. ;)

Sarov

Intelligence is one thing, personality another...

lila

@Nai54 "Dog-sized rats would be dominant instead of humans" -Albert Einstein. Do you believe me now? :D

Stephie

19:07

... and here Allison’s expectations go down the drain.

Sarov

Sidenote - I'm running a FAE game where one of the PCs's 'thing' is that she is accompanied by a horde (like, 100+) rats.

@lila Capybara.

Nai54

@lila Maybe measuring in pure intelligence, but rats have no opposable thumbs. and humans already have such a complex, modern, and weaponized system that dog sized rats wouldn't stand a chance.

lila

@Nai54 Nice, thanks! But I honestly lost it at "intelligent bacteria", intelligence on human level requires huge brain made of 100 billion cells, how could one cell be more intelligent than it already is? Single celled bacteria and archaea don't need intelligence in my opinion, they are already omnipresent and colonize even the harshest habitats on Earth.

Sarov

@lila Hence my question about magic.

Nai54

@lila My question would be , how can you measure intelligence even? I mean, I do not think of cells being "smart".

@Sarov I think the article assumes the "what if" question, where all animals automatically become as intelligent us, kind of magic I guess, but more of a hypothetical.

lila

19:13

@Sarov Haha oh I see, you had the same thing on mind as me; yes, such scenarios are interesting to philosophize about them, but oftentimes phantasy takes over and steer their train of thoughts completely out of touch with reality... I know that there used to be a creepy futuristic scenario called "gray goo" about inventing self-replicating nanorobots that could build their own copies from matter consumed, and that...

@Sarov ...it would lead to them consuming the entire Earth and transforming all its mass into "gray goo" of nanorobots. Well, too bad, but such self-replicating things already exist since 3.8 billion years, they are called cells and somehow they hadn't consumed to whole Earth and didn't turn it into 100% bacterial biomass. And "nanorobots" sound so futuristic and pompous, well guess what, they have also already been invented by nature and are called enzymes.

Sarov

Tasty, tasty grey goo.

I think the thing about 'nanobots' is more the intelligent design aspect.
Because unlike nature, intelligent design can have bugs.

lila

@Nai54 Haha yes exactly, cells aren't sentient self-aware beings, they are able to respond to stimuli but it is all chemical, based on chemical properties of the building molecules.

Sarov

@lila You could arguably make the same claim of humans, though, could you not?

lila

@Sarov I don't think I understand, tell me more tell me more, pretty please with sugar on top tell me more ^.^

Nai54

@lila I find your manners hilarious (in a good way). If we all talked like that, it would be a much better place out there... :D

@Sarov That's true... thinking like that scares me though

lila

19:26

@Sarov I do not think I could answer your question, people have been debating and the toughest philosophers in the world had been thinking about what exactly is consciousness, how could it emerge from biochemical processes in our brains how is it even possible that we are conscious and aware that we are having our own thoughts, and no consensus has been made yet; I think you are in a way right, but working of the brain is emergent behavior, it is not just ...

Sarov

Basically, yes, nature can do lots of things. But humans replicating the *exact same* things can carry horrific moral implications. For example - cloning. It's easy to make a new human using the natural process. It's much harder but theoretically possible to make one artificially instead, and that opens up cans of worms... both intent-based (see fears regarding nazi eugenics) and accidental.

Imagine we 'perfect' cloning (or other form of test-tube babies). Natural birth wold be phased out. But now consider that this process, being human-created, is vulnerable to the same sort of bugs as co…

lila

@Sarov ... about the cells but as much importantly about the connections and activity between those cells that creates our consciousness. It is like you look at a clock and it measures time and works well, but if you disassemble the clock and look at the separated gearwheels and spring and other parts, none of them measures time on itself.

Sarov

So yeah - the existence of 'natural nanobots' (enzymes) does not, imo, justify the alleviation of fears regarding human-made nanobots.

lila

@Nai54 Haha thanks, actually this sugar on top is overdone on purpose to be funny, a grotesque on my part :D it is a quote from the movie Pulp Fiction, did you see it? If not, then you can look for phrase "pulp fiction pretty please with sugar on top" in video hosting platform :D

Stephie

@Sarov German: “Stock” is either a (wooden) stick or a plant, usually something compact, shrub-like, like a potted plant.

Nai54

19:33

@lila Thanks, I suspected it was a reference to something... :D

Sarov

@lila There's an interesting parallel there with hivemind insects. Ants are dumb. Hives are smart.

@Stephie "Stocks" were also wooden medieval torture devices.

Stephie

@lila The message is visible for the user in their profile (the same you see in the moderator tab) and a copy is sent to the e-mail linked to their account. So two channels.

@Sarov “Block” in German. Same meaning as in English. But used in the singular form.

Which reminds me (wild train of thoughts that you don’t want to follow)... g’night, folks!

lila

@Sarov Oh I understand, I am already a bit familiar with these dilemmas, I just didn't know your previous message was referencing these dilemmas. By the way, did you know that all the bananas of the most common breed of banana (Cavendish) come from technically one and the same plant? Which means that if there comes to evolve a pathogen that this type of plant is vulnerable to, it will be a disaster because...

Nai54

19:49

Goodnight @Stephie

Sarov

@Stephie Disagree, I want to follow it!

lila

@Sarov ...since all the Cavendish banana plants in the whole world are technically the same plant (they are reproduced as*xually by vegetative reproduction, which in facts creates exact clones, except for any mutations that happen in the clones later) the pathogen who "figures them out" would be like a criminal who gets the password in website where all the users use this one and the same password.

Sarov

Yeah, I've hard that before. Poor, poor chom choms.

Stephie

@Sarov stock -> punishment -> suspended user on a site I moderate replied -> discussed earlier with a fellow mod how to reply or whether to reply at all -> go re-check the (deleted) posts considering the user’s response -> decide that they were so far off the mark that they are not salvageable (user suspended for plagiarism / self-promotion) -> decided to not engage further -> report to fellow mods in mod-chat. Return here to reply ;-)

That went faster than expected.

Sarov

Man, that's not even wild at all!

Stephie

20:02

@lila and that would be the end of all banana milkshakes and banana bread.

Sarov

@Stephie Or we'd just switch to plantains.

Stephie

Not quite the same?

Sarov

Though 'plantain bread' isn't as punchy.

Nai54

@Sarov What were you expecting? Being chased by pirates? ;)

Sarov

@Nai54 I also would have accepted the inclusion of platypi. Platypuses? Platipae?

Stephie

20:04

Platypussies?

>.<

Sarov

Platypodes, apparently.

Stephie

<snort>

Sarov

But yeah, night.

Stephie

And with a smile I retire (again) for the night.

Allison C

@lila there is indeed a pathogen (a fungus, I think) that preys on Cavendish bananas, so they're currently at risk and there's some groups trying to develop another variety. And the same thing has happened before; the main variety of bananas used to be Gros Michel, until a pathogen wiped that one out.

Now, selfishly, I won't worry too much about the Cavendish. But that's because I'm highly allergic to bananas, so it would just make them easier to avoid. ;) (I'd guess it's all bananas and closely related things like plantains; I'll admit I haven't actually tried any other kind of banana, or a plantain, since I developed the allergy)

Nai54

20:16

@AllisonC A banana allergy... interesting. I googled and found out that it is a thing, I've just never heard of it before. Apparently, less than 1% of the population has it.

Allison C

@Nai54 It's typically connected to other allergies, most commonly latex. (I'm not latex allergic, personally; turns out it's also connected to ragweed.)

lila

21:20

What is our consensus on Off the Leash chat room, I have the impression that most people agree to oficially broadcast it as obsolete, if I did something like this: changing the Litter Box description to remove link to Off the Leash, then change "Off the Leash" name to "Off the Leash [obsolete]" would you be happy with that? Thanks.

@AllisonC Oh so it's already a thing, poor plants. I have never really liked bananas but weirdly enough I have always loved banana-tasted candies, etc. and just a few months ago or so I learnt about Cavendish extinction danger and they say that Cavendish is bland tasting while other varieties have a more aromatic taste and all banana artificial flavors intend to mimic that aromatic delicious banana variety (sorry I don't remember the name).

Allison C

@lila apparently (though I don't know if this is apocryphal or true), the reason banana-flavored things taste better than bananas is that the banana flavoring was modeled on the Gros Michel cultivar, which people claim was much tastier than the Cavendish cultivar

lila

@AllisonC oh so the original that the flavorings were meant to mimic no longer exists, what a sad thing :/ and I think it is true, basically you said the same thing that I have watched some time ago in "serious" educational material, except I didn't remember the name of the superior banana variety and didn't know it no longer exists.

And even the name sounds better and more dignified, Gros Michel sounds like this banana in its young years used to walk 20km to school, uphill both ways, and all of this while traversing 1 m high snow; Cavendish sounds like it is glued 24h to its smartphone and its mom still cuts the crust off its sandwiches :/

Sarov

23:03

@lila Pfftahaha what? And I happen to like chom choms, tyvm! I generally like subtle-tasting foods, though.

Journeyman Geek

23:43

@lila Or just freeze the room

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