The Reading Room

Bookworm

00:53

0

Q: What Does this Quote in Don Juan by Lord Byron mean? "Sweet is a legacy, and passing sweet The unexpected death of some old lady"

I saw this quote in C. S. Lewis's The Inner Ring and I'm having trouble with figuring out what it means.

Bookworm

02:31

0

Q: Is the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) a descriptive dictionary?

The Oxford English Dictionary is said to be a descriptive dictionary. What does that mean? What does it mean for the OED or any dictionary for that matter to be "descriptive" or "prescriptive"? Has the OED changed over the years?

dictionary-of-the-english-language oed

Bookworm

06:13

0

Q: "The Dao hides in wordlessness.Only the Dao is well begun and well completed." -Laozi (Tao Te Ching) .Who is "Dao" in this quote?

I was curious to know what is meant by the word Dao in the given quote.Also please shed light on the hidden meaning of the quote.

quote-identification word-coinage wordplay

Rand al'Thor

@b_jonas If you cross-post, it's good to tailor the two versions of the question to the sites they're on if possible, not just copy-paste. In this case, you already have an answer on SFF which tells you what the items are, so you could ask a question here about their significance or the point of including them all in one image. (This also lets both sites play to their strengths.)

@EddieKal There's an old question about Kafka's character "K" (self-promotion alert).

Eddie Kal

06:57

@Bookworm The dictionary-of-the-english-language tag has just been edited out of this question. Doesn't seem to be a reasonable edit.

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/…

The editor wasn't aware of this tag?

Rand al'Thor

07:22

@EddieKal Check the tag wiki excerpt.

Eddie Kal

Takes some getting used to

Rand al'Thor

There's a few confusingly named tags. I wonder if we should add the author name to that one, a la the-dark-tower-king and the-dark-tower-lewis.

I remember having to fight to get the norse-mythology tag used for the topic of Norse mythology instead of specifically the book Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman.

Rand al'Thor

13:00

@MatrimCauthon Long time no see

Eddie Kal

15:31

The author and book referred to is, Kensuboro Oe. The book is, 'A Personal Matter', and the proper term is phenomenological, it marks the type of literature. It is often associated with 'stream of consciousness' writing. Mr. Kensuboro won the Nobel Prize in Literature. Highly recommend you become acquainted with 'Bird' — Charles M Saunders yesterday

I am reading some Shagzbeer

Wait... just now someone upvoted this guy's comments. For real?

And the question

Good!

Minutes after I shared this comment in this room, a great mysterious force came upon us

I have a feeling this didn't come from anyone currently in the room but some omnipresent power who must not be named.

North Læraðr

15:54

Ooh goodie! More new tags!

Eddie Kal

@NorthLæraðr Sorry about that

0

Q: Who is "Dao" in this quote from Laozi's Tao Te Ching?

I found the following quote here: The Dao hides in wordlessness. Only the Dao is well begun and well completed. -- Laozi, Tao Te Ching What is the exact meaning and context of this quote? I was curious to know what is meant by the word Dao in the context of the given quote.

meaning quote-identification chinese-literature laozi tao-te-ching

North Læraðr

@EddieKal No I'm genuinely happy :P

Eddie Kal

This question about the Tao Te Ching is also very problematic

North Læraðr

More tags to edit means more edits which equal slightly higher rep and increase edit count which means the gradual ascension into Tag Dooku

Eddie Kal

I downvoted it because it should at least show some respect to the original text

by making sure it is a quote from the original text

North Læraðr

15:56

@EddieKal What's problematic about it? I'm not very knowledged in this....

Ah, I see the problem now

What the heck

Eddie Kal

@NorthLæraðr Some guy comes across an exotic/esoteric sounding quote from an ancient Asian text on a programming website and decides to come to Lit SE to ask other people to tell them what it means...

North Læraðr

Yeah I downvoted that as well

@EddieKal Jeez wth

That's borderline offensive

Eddie Kal

Agreed

Mithical

I don't see the problem with the question (in its edited form). It's asking about the meaning of a quote; whether or not the quote is accurate should be up to the answers. They're asking about a quote they found somewhere; seems reasonable to quote exactly the text that was presented to them.

Eddie Kal

@Mithical Lack of research

It still has that problem as it currently stands.

Mithical

16:00

17

Q: Should we embrace non-Googlers?

Common Stack Network policy is to embrace non-Googlers. The Stack Exchange wants to be a place Google sends folks, not a place that sends folks to Google. Unfortunately, many sites and some of our users feel the downvote reason "does not show any research effort" is synonymous with "did not try ...

discussion down-votes

Eddie Kal

Don't know about Lit but that's reason enough on a number of other sites to cast a closevote

Mithical

See the meta discussion I just linked.

North Læraðr

@Mithical Yeah I don't particularly have a problem with the question itself (which was why I was confused) but I agree with Eddie

@EddieKal I've always had a problem with it, but it's not enough to close vote

Just downvote and hope people get the point

Hm okay the meta does make a fair point

Eddie Kal

@Mithical I agree with it in part but it also has to taking into account a number of other factors.

Mithical

For instance, in this case, Lit.SE could conceivably become the top Google result for a search for that quote. Wouldn't it be better to have a decently edited and high-quality answer there for the people searching, instead of downvoting and hoping it goes away?

(Due to how highly Google ranks SE.)

North Læraðr

16:04

@Mithical Fair point

Eddie Kal

On this I can speak about the situation on ELL. All longtime contributors and especially moderators are strongly against gimme codez people. (I am using ELL as an example to talk about SE and I will get back to Lit in a bit)

North Læraðr

@EddieKal It's a little different on Stack Overflow though

Eddie Kal

62

Q: DO NOT FEED THE BEARS

A question was just asked on ELL, and it needs a lot of work. Here's a screen shot. There are two problems with this question: first, the way the initial question was asked; second, the way a follow-on question was asked in a comment. Error Identification I'll start by addressing the...

discussion answers

North Læraðr

Those are actual coders spending their precious time, and they don't want to waste their time telling you how to solve simple issues.

Eddie Kal

Right, but so are answers on non-tech sites

Mithical

16:07

Also, homework dumps are different; they often have other problems that make them badly-suited to being SE questions.

North Læraðr

For Lit SE, as a beta community, blocking those types of questions could severely diminish our QPD count

Eddie Kal

Everybody here volunteers their time to write better answers because we believe they might help some foiks

Mithical

On the other hand, "simple" SE questions (that aren't dupes) can easily become a canonical search result on Google and similar, allowing us to provide high-quality answers for whoever finds those questions.

2

North Læraðr

Look, I wholehearted agree with you, I don't like poorly researched questions. I get annoyed because I spend time making my questions.

But Mith makes a fair point

Eddie Kal

I am probably the only ELL mod that doesn't close a Googlable meaning question on ELL upon seeing it. A lot of people are strongly against them because the problem is, as you say, homework dumps

North Læraðr

16:09

Hmm I'm not sure how to make the tag for oxford-english-dictionary

Mithical

Another point to consider is that the people asking these questions are often non-native speakers and maybe can't Google so well what they're looking for. (I know personally searching in my second language is really, really, hard.) I'm getting a distinctly ESL air from the question above (maybe Indian?).

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Would you like to weigh in? Since you've probably been reading this discussion any way

Bookworm

0

Q: The motif of Tom O' Bedlam

The 17th-century motiff of Tom O' Bedlam has always been one that I hold much affection and wonder for. The motif most famously makes an appearance in William Shakespeare's The Tragedie of King Lear; Here being two examples of the text spoken by Edgar: (...)I will preserve myself, and am bethoug...

poetry william-shakespeare

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Why me specifically?

North Læraðr

@Bookworm Yay! A migration!

Napoleon Wilson

16:12

I understand and appreciate Mithical's argument about "easy" questions becoming standard with referential answers.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I feel like we are connected and that you are watching over me

Mithical

*confused look*

North Læraðr

quizzical expression

Napoleon Wilson

I don't quite like that Laotse question, because it doesn't come from actually reading the book (the context of which would likely entirely alleviate its necessity), rather than just "catching" a single line from somewhere.

North Læraðr

Btw @Randal'Thor I'm not sure if I want to accept your answer to literature.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1280/… yet

Napoleon Wilson

16:15

I don't see what's wrong with that Genji question, though. Isn't it just asking for why the book is so significant and revered (since it seems to be)? It seems a genuine "reception" question. I feel like there's one of these hidden "Hamlet offenses" I simply don't catch in that question.

North Læraðr

I want to make a couple adjustments, and maybe a clearer distinction? I like the line of thought though.

@NapoleonWilson Hamlet offenses?

Napoleon Wilson

@NorthLæraðr Those things where you have to read the question 10 times and employ the worst possible iterpretation and bad faith on the asker to realize how terribly ignorant ergo offensive the question suddenly is.

Eddie Kal

Let me properly respond to Mithical's points. Yes oftentimes answers elicited by simple SE questions are great. But they are also broken windows. I am not particularly in favor of the broken window argument against lack-of-research questions but it has been discussed on several sites

North Læraðr

@NapoleonWilson Say what now

Eddie Kal

One of the ways SE prides itself is building a library of knnowledge

Something easily Googleable does not really help in that regard

If it is on Wikipedia and it is in a dictionary, why repeat that mechanical copy-and-paste over and over again

SE doesn't need to become something that contains Wikipedia and dictionaries

Mithical

16:18

@EddieKal I mean... it does, because then that information is contained on SE itself. There's a reason link-only answers are deleted, and IMO "Google it" is equivalent to a link-only answer.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson So you upvoted it?

Just asking

Mithical

Votes are anonymous... and I don't like pressuring people to reveal what way they voted. Can we avoid doing that, please?

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Yes. As I said, it seems to be a genuine question and it could be answerable properly.

@Mithical That too, though. ;-)

If your next question is if I upvoted those comments, then I'm afraid no, primarily because I didn't quite get most of that comment discussion nor care about it too much. ;-)

Eddie Kal

@Mithical I take this into account whenever I deliberate a close/down vote. But "non-Googlers" is a really broad term. I don't downvote simply because a post shows no research effort. I might closevote. My downvotes usually are because of other factors, for example the Dao question

@NapoleonWilson Like I said, I knew we had a connection

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I thought you didn't like the question.

Rand al'Thor

16:22

@EddieKal I'm thinking to ask a question about psychoanalysis, just to populate that tag you tried to create before. But if I do that now, the system would credit me with creating the tag (e.g. for Taxonomist badge) and I'd feel bad about that since you originally created it and I removed it. What do you think? (Sorry to drop into an unrelated discussion - some of which I'll reply to later - but I'd already started typing this message earlier.)

Napoleon Wilson

Now I'm confused. o_O

Eddie Kal

I don't see any way around it unless you want me silenced and not talking about it, ever

North Læraðr

@Randal'Thor You can ask the question without the tag and let eddie create the tag on your question

I think that's fair

Eddie Kal

Voting for and against based on ideology is a problem

Like that "Cultural Marxism" question

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Indeed, since you seem to apply that on my voting, I'm afraid you gotta 'xplain that a little further than ascribing terms to my voting that I don't quite understand (yes, I'm just a programmer I'm afraid) but understand just enough to know it's nothing nice.

Mithical

16:26

I... think you may be reading too much into Tim Post losing his keys.

North Læraðr

I'm confused

Eddie Kal

How does a comment that says "OP was sleeping" deserve a like unless it is a statement of defiance against Tsundoku's closure

@NapoleonWilson I wasn't sure that was your voting before I asked you. I asked you because you said you didn't see anything wrong with the Genji question, though I never asked you about it

Napoleon Wilson

Really, isn't the dude just asking why The Tale of Genji is so revered and significant (and from meta I got the impression it was)?

Mithical

Hanlon's razor seems applicable here also, big-time.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Exactly! So how in the world does that deserve an upvote if not a vote against something you don't like?

Napoleon Wilson

16:29

@EddieKal You literally called me into the room to ask my opinion. Like, what actually happens right now? Confusion isn't particularly decreasing right now. ;-)

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Right! I asked for your opinion and said it's because we had a connection. And you started talking about the genji question while I was still trying to type up a response to Mythical

North Læraðr

Are we talking about this?

Eddie Kal

The discussion was about non-Googlers which I still have yet to have a chance to respond on

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Huh? What do you mean? I told you I think it's a genuine question. Really, what is the problem with that question? Just say it like I'm 12 years old...and a white German dude. I think it's a genuine and proper question (ergo, I like it) and that's why I upvoted it. The concept of ethnicity didn't even cross my mind with that question.

@EddieKal There were too question recently discussed in the room and I gave my opinion on both of them, because someone asked me into the room to know my...well, my opinion.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I never said there was anything wrong in the question itself. They manifest more in the comments.

And I found the upvote on the comments offensive

Napoleon Wilson

16:33

I fail to grasp some super imminent problem that's somehow sitting here and I struggle to understand it.

@EddieKal Oh, well I haven't paid much attention to these comments really.

Eddie Kal

> Wait... just now someone upvoted this guy's comments. For real?

@NapoleonWilson Thank you

Napoleon Wilson

If that's what you take issue with, I guess everything is fine. I had the impression it was the question that's not allowed to be upvoted.

Eddie Kal

I wanted to ask for your opinion on the comments. Do you also find the comments problematic?

As "a white German dude"

North Læraðr

Well while this is going on... @Randal'Thor so I was wondering regarding that whole medium v.s. genre post, I wanted your opinion on something

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I don't quite get what they're about. So...from a cursory glance, not really. It seems the guy messed up a name and mistook phenomenology as a genre? I don't know.

North Læraðr

16:36

To clarify my stance, I think the easiest way to make the distinction is if the said tag can replace the title of the work

Bookworm

0

Q: Is Cybula's musings about the birds a metaphor?

In The King of the Fields by Isaac Bashevis Singer, there's this scene early on in the book - the section "Cybula and Nosek" - where Cybula, who is on his way with his daughter for a peace meeting with the invaders, muses about some birds: The birds had all settled down on branches of trees, exc...

isaac-bashevis-singer yiddish-literature the-king-of-the-fields

North Læraðr

So normally poetry would replace the name of a poem, or song-lyrics replace the title of a song

Mithical

@NorthLæraðr the-king-of-the-fields

North Læraðr

This would make it easier in figuring out which tags we should keep, and which ones we can slash.

@Mithical Thanks

So something like theater or comics we could slash since those don't replace the name of the work. But of course, this might get complicated if we're trying to distinguish between works

Napoleon Wilson

I feel like I slid into some really bad mood you're in. I'm sorry if you think I upvoted some comment I shouldn't have (I didn't any, if it helps). But I stand to not seeing a problem with that question itself. If it helps, I...kinda share you view about the Laotse question, or...I...think to...kind of...I guess. ;-)

Eddie Kal

16:39

@NapoleonWilson Yeah pretty much. And I wasn't hung up on the name messup, a little miffed maybe. But I was hugely upset with the like tossed on it

Mithical

Hanlon's razor

Hanlon's razor is an aphorism, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity", known in several other forms. It is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior. Similar statements have been recorded since at least the 18th century. It is probably named after Robert J. Hanlon, a person who submitted the idea to a joke book. == Origin == Inspired by Occam's razor, the aphorism became known in this form and under this name by the Jargon File, a glossary of computer programmer slang. Later that same year, the Jargon...

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal In the danger of...waking sleeping dogs, but where's the ethnicity part coming in there?

North Læraðr

@Tsundoku Okay, I think I'm going to get started on editing tag wikis O_O. The research assistant badge isn't going to earn itself... just wanted to warn you of the incoming onslaught of edit approvals ;P

Eddie Kal

My goal is to see if I could get you on the same page with me

Let me think how I should put it so it comes across more persuasively

Mithical

Just curious - why particularly Nap?

...it seems like there a lot of people obsessed with @NapoleonWilson for some reason I can't fathom and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

Napoleon Wilson

16:45

But if all that ethnicity stuff and the sarcasm with the connection was about these comment votes...I'm rather relieved. Confused, but not particularly concerned.

If you have "eaten a fool on me" for some reason, then as Mithical says, you don't seem to be the first one. ;-)

(And no, that makes absolutely no sense literally, but it's such a beautiful phrase, I hope at least Tsundoku will appreciate it.)

Faded Giant

😅

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Why sarcasm though? That's all you got from me cherishing our connection?

I have never said your comments were sarcastic. Though a lot of them are intended to be

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I don't quite get what this is about. And when I don't get things and the atmosphere is somehow...weird, I think it's sarcasm. If it isn't (and this message isn't either), then I apologize (but will reserve asking for what that connection is supposed to be for another time).

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Another time is good. Sorry I am a bit slow in responding. I am researching for a more appropriate reply to Mithical on non-Googlers

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Oh, I know. But now I think you're confused. ;-)

Eddie Kal

16:54

May well be

@NapoleonWilson Sounds like you are about to retire. Wanted to throw out some quick responses to your points. Bad faith is a big factor, in my opinion

Napoleon Wilson

In any case, though. I don't quite know what I slid into here. But in general, if you don't want to know what I have to say about something (I still don't quite know if you did or not), then please don't actually ping me, because then it feels kind of odd saying something and then being asked why I said something by the person that asked me. I...still don't quite know if that's exactly what happened, but it feels like it was, together with a ton other things.

Because now I feel like someone is super mad at me and I have no idea why. And we're not even married. ;-)

Eddie Kal

I didn't see bad faith in that Genji question, but from what that person wrote I discerned a layer of it in the presentation of the question and the way he approached it. That's part of my strong opinion against his comments and stronger opinion against the like

@NapoleonWilson Who?

Fill me in?

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal That's what I did, yes.

Mithical

30 mins ago, by Mithical

Hanlon's razor seems applicable here also, big-time.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Huh? What am I doing here if not engaging you in a discussion about a particular post?

Mithical

17:00

Or, in SE terms: "assume good faith".

Faded Giant

Is all this still about an upvote to a comment?

Eddie Kal

@Mithical That should also apply when a person raises serious issues, especially with culture, race, gender

Mithical

Okay? Yes?

Napoleon Wilson

@FadedGiant Seemingly yes, but...somehow also not, or that's how it seems. I don't know.

Mithical

I have to get back to doing other things - I have a test tomorrow I need to study for, more specifically - so I'll drop out of this conversation for now. I'll see replies, though.

Eddie Kal

17:04

@NapoleonWilson So as I said I did find the way that question was presented problematic. I found in the comments that he didn't seem to care very much how the names are spelled and who those people are/were

What do you think?

@NapoleonWilson I don't know where you got "if you don't want to know what I have to say about something" from. Still mad at me for not replying in a timely fashion?

Napoleon Wilson

I also told you what I think. I liked the question and found it genuine. I didn't pay much attention to the comments, but I didn't see malice in messing up a name. It didn't seem like he didn't seem to care (let alone would I dare assume why that would be so).

Tsundoku

@Bookworm That question should be migrated to Linguistics SE. Surely we aren't going to turn Lit SE into a site about any sort of text in the universe??

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson No, that was what I was responding to. I then presented you with my response. And I thought naturally you'd have some things to say back as the way a discussion should go

Napoleon Wilson

If you want to see that as him somehow disrespecting Japanese culture, I guess you can do that. It is a possible interpretation, although not one I share.

Eddie Kal

I am curious if you consider my accusation of the OP fair

Ok fair. Care to explain? Do you think it is only a slip-up?

Napoleon Wilson

17:08

It's not like calling a kid that actually learns Kung Fu "Karate Kid". That is offensive. ;-)

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I told you we had a conneciton.

Napoleon Wilson

I mean, just a few minutes ago I mispelt Tsundoku, and he isn't even Japanese. ;-)

Eddie Kal

I nearly throw a book at my screen watching Karate Kid last weekend

Tsundoku is a word. I wouldn't have minded

I'd be unhappy if someone told me they were reading Shagsbeer

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I thought at some point you wondered why I had to say something about a question. But really, I don't think it's productive to reiterate that, I might as well have misunderstood something.

In general, no, I fully acknowledge that chat isn't immediate, and I have struggled with people understanding that myself.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I did want your opinion on the two questions I brought to everybody's attention

But you then assumed that I was mad at you for something

Oh you thought it was the Genji question that I was focusing on

Napoleon Wilson

17:14

@EddieKal That is a bit of a different kind of mispelling, though. It's not messing up letters, it's genuinely rephrasing entire words into homonymous alternatives. There's a lot more purpose behind that.

(But even then I'd think it's a just a joke or something.)

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I have a lot I'd like to discuss with you specifically on this. Please give me a minute.

I just spilled maple syrup all over. Need a minute to clean up

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I don't know, with the "connection" stuff and then saying votes were enthnically or ideologically motivated after asking me if I upvoted the question. It all felt really weird. But maybe "mad" was the wrong word.

But...I dodn't feel like analyzing that conversation yet again. ;-)

Or...close reading it.

Homophonetic? Certainly not homonymous. Whatever, "same-sounding".

@EddieKal It was about two questions, and I commented on both.

Eddie Kal

Okay back

@NapoleonWilson I am confused. Are you saying Shagsbeer is not as offensive as Kensuboro?

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I don't think either is offensive really.

Eddie Kal

Or are you saying neither is offensive and Shagsbeer is simply funny?

Napoleon Wilson

17:25

Unless you know exactly how (and now you make me look up the comment) Kenzaburo is spelt or you say the Shagsbeer thing right to his face.

@EddieKal It all depends on context. I'm not saying it's funny all the time. But that's the difficulty with examples in the void.

Eddie Kal

2

A: Is it OK to respond to "thanks" with "sure"?

While I would not consider replying with "Sure" to be polite, I have noticed that it is extremely common among Indian English speakers to reply with "Sure" in this context as a normal reply. Here is an example: "Thanks, I appreciate the explanation you gave." "Sure." For a frame of reference,...

So I'd like to compare this discussion we are having with this ELL question and answers

Napoleon Wilson

What I saw was some dude misspelling a name. That happens all the time and I didn't think it was for malice or not even for ignorance or for disregard for his culture. It was just a mispell. In fact you could even go as far as me not even caring or considering why he mispelt him. I mispell things all the livelong day.

Eddie Kal

Yes I agree it is context-dependent. A lot of utterances, phrases, words, spellings can be offensive in certain contexts but not in others

Napoleon Wilson

(Though, I also tend to be pedantic enough to correct most of them.)

Eddie Kal

But it should also but noted the "context" here also includes "cultural contexts"

Napoleon Wilson

17:29

I mean, yeah, maybe it was because doesn't give a crap how Japanese names are spelt. But I just didn't have a reason to think that's the case. It's just some comment.

Eddie Kal

For example that answer I just linked to a question whether "Sure" as a response to "Thank you" is impolite. That user is seemingly from the American South and claims they will always consider such a response "shockingly improper at best, and dismissive or sarcastic at worst"

Napoleon Wilson

If it was in a post, I'd edit it to correct it. And once he rolls that back for....whatever reason, then I'd get suspicious.

Mithical

59 mins ago, by Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Right! I asked for your opinion and said it's because we had a connection. And you started talking about the genji question while I was still trying to type up a response to Mythical

Napoleon Wilson

@Mithical ?_?

Mithical

While we're on the subject of misspelling names.

Napoleon Wilson

17:31

Oh, see, I didn't even notice. ;-)

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson That's exactly where I saw the problem. For a guy to claim to have studied Japanese and Chinese literature for two years altogether and then misspell Oe's name? I have seen some interesting things but that takes the cake

@Mithical 土下座!!

Dogeza

Dogeza (土下座) is an element of traditional Japanese etiquette which involves kneeling directly on the ground and bowing to prostrate oneself while touching one's head to the floor. It is used to show deference to a person of higher status, as a deep apology or to express the desire for a favor from said person. The term is used in Japanese politics such as "dogeza-gaikō" (土下座外交) which is translated to "kowtow diplomacy" or "kowtow foreign policy". In general, dogeza is translated into English as "prostration" or "kowtow". == The meaning of performing dogeza == In the Japanese social consciousness...

> as a deep apology or to express the desire for a favor from said person.

Mithical

(Just to illustrate the point that, yes, people do misspell names they're not familiar with at times. I didn't bother pointing it out at the time because I didn't especially care.)

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Well, it's clear you interpreted it a lot worse, and that's your right, it is a possible interpretation. I know why you did it although I don't think it's productive. But please don't take offense at me not intepreting it like that.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson I am simply trying to explain why people might take umbrage at it. You know what's productive? "Oh now I see why some people might get offended. I probably don't agree but I understand why some people might feel it that way." That'll be the day

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Yes, and I realize that. I didn't know that's all this was about (and that I didn't even have anything to do with it). But I know that now.

In fact I understood that the entire time. I just didn't know it's really all this was about. And since that was so tangential to the question, I just didn't know this was the core of the issue, especially since I didn't upvote these comments.

Eddie Kal

17:37

8

Q: Why does Merion react so strongly to being asked what their gender is?

In the September/October 2017 issue of the Cicada magazine, they ran a story by Nino Cipri, entitled "A Silly Love Story". (Published online by the author (who also goes by Nicole).) The story focuses on Jeremy - our main character, a man - and Merion, a bi-gendered character, who are in a rela...

short-stories nino-cipri

Napoleon Wilson

But that is the danger of hiding such rather simple (but understandable) issues behind broad and laden terms like "ethnically motivated voting".

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson You understood that the entire time and you still said "it's clear you interpreted it a lot worse, and that's your right"?

Napoleon Wilson

Say where the problem is and we can discuss it. I'm just not good with subtext, I never have been, in English or my mother tongue. (That's a general statement, since I think we finally have mutually understood the problem now.)

Tsundoku

Spelling of Shakespeare's name

The spelling of William Shakespeare's name has varied over time. It was not consistently spelled any single way during his lifetime, in manuscript or in printed form. After his death the name was spelled variously by editors of his work, and the spelling was not fixed until well into the 20th century. The standard spelling of the surname as "Shakespeare" was the most common published form in Shakespeare's lifetime, but it was not one used in his own handwritten signatures. It was, however, the spelling used as a printed signature to the dedications of the first editions of his poems Venus and Adonis...

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal Yes, I understood (or generally understand, without a temporal aspect), that this is an issue one can take umbrage at. I just didn't know that's the core issue that was discussed.

Eddie Kal

17:40

And no it is not about me or my interpretation. If that is how you want to spin it, be my guest but, oh well

Tsundoku

Shakespeare spelled his own name inconsistently. Admittedly, "Shaksbeer" wasn't one of those variations.

Napoleon Wilson

I felt like there was some big problem with the question noone dared to speak out, because, well, noone did spell it out.

Mithical

@EddieKal ?

I was thinking about that question the last time I had to explain the validity of "they/them", but I'm failing to see the connection here. :)

Eddie Kal

@Mithical (Just to illustrate the point that there are circumstances where people react the way they do because of a whole bunch of other actors and that reaction itself should beg some questions)

^factors*

Napoleon Wilson

@EddieKal I'm not trying to spin something here. You took umbrage to the mispelling and I understand why. I didn't. And yes, I think both are valid interpretations. That's all there is about it.

Eddie Kal

17:43

"actors" could work too. "The world is a stage"

@NapoleonWilson It shouldn't be just me is all. Let's talk about something else unless you want to ask me "who else?"

Napoleon Wilson

I'm not trying to "spin" you as wrong or something, I'm genuinely acknowledging your interpreation of the comments as possible. I...don't know what else to say to stop this somehow being a weird discussion that unncessarily antagonizes people.

@EddieKal No, I don't think you're the only one. But you and me are the only ones whose interpretations I know.

This is really kind of exahausting. The dude mispelt a name. Yes, that can be a sign of disrespect for the author or even his entire culture. I don't think it is, you do. Maybe others think like you or me. But frankly, I don't particularly care. It's a useless comment and I have to go home.

Eddie Kal

@NapoleonWilson Need a lift?

Napoleon Wilson

Yes, but only down to the garage.

Eddie Kal

Lol good one

Napoleon Wilson

(Or maybe not actually "need", but I'm lazy, so what.)

b_jonas

17:53

@Randal'Thor Ok, so it was too late in the evening yesterday, but I have to address this one now. It's complicated. I do have a few questions and answers about Jules Verne and Stanisław Lem (here and on Sci Fi). But in the end, there's just not all that much you can ask about Verne once you've read the FAQs and did the research, and I don't read much Eastern European sci fi, Lem is just the one exception. On the other hand,

I have asked several questions elsewhere about poetry in Hungarian, a few of which aren't even about Arany János. These questions are varied: I have asked about the meaning of certain words, about translations of foreign language works, on different variants of the same text, on where to find sound recorded recital of a poem (that one is solved, the recording was published a few years after my question). I'll probably ask more such questions. But I won't ask them here, at least not yet.

The reason for this is that I want to ask those questions in Hungarian, to experts (in the SE sense, not necessarily in th professional sense) who will not come here until we get Lit to a state where you can easily ask questions in languages other than English.

Now I would like Lit, and most forums, to become such places where you can ask questions and give answers in any language. That would be good, and I want to support it. But I do understand why we have to make some compromises. The usual excuse is that the moderators speak English so they can't moderate discussion that's not in English.

Now, as far as I understand, there are two ways to transform a site to multilingual, the top-down way and the bottom-up way. The bottom-up way works on technical forums, it probably can't work here. The way it goes is like this. You have a forum with a narrow topic, such as one software library. Not too often, but occasionally users arrive who ask on-topic and savable questions in a foreign language. Eventually a pattern emerges from this, and savable questions converge to this.

Op asks on-topic question in a foreign language. Random commenter rudely tells them "we speak English here, please ask your question in English". Op returns, posts the same question supposedly in English, but actually it's such a gibberish that's impossible to understand. Moderator says "please ignore random commenter, ask your question in <that asian language>, we don't speak it well but we do have someone who speaks it a little bit, and we can probably figure out your problem better if

you stick to that, because your attempt of English conversation is total gibberish. Also please post a complete test case, because those two lines of code look fine, we can't tell what's wrong from that.". Moderator sends private message to that one user, possibly from another forum, that speaks a little of <that asian language>. That poster says "Op says <description of symptom>.". He also says "Op: please post a complete testcase, those two lines of code look fine, we can't tell

why they don't work from just that." translated to broken <that asian language>. Op returns, posts a complete testcase. People see the problem, give a correct answer. Everyone is happy.

The top-down pattern is different. That could work on Lit. It works like this. Someone posts a question that is on the boundary of savable and completely bad in <asian language> that none of us understand. People have heated discussion on whether we should close or try to save that question, with the same "we speak English" rude comments. Eventually the one thing we can agree is that we can't decide if the question should be kept or deleted because we don't have any mods or active high-rep

users who understand <asian language> enough to be able to moderate it. After a few of these set the precedent, a mod or high-rep user posts a good question in French. Random commenter posts usual rude comment. I and other high-rep users other than Op comment "no no, we keep this, we agreed that we don't take questions in <asian language> because nobody understand them, but this one is in French and we do have moderators who speak French, and besides, this one is a good question, I understand

enough French to be able to know that." We keep the question. We get more native French speakers to post good questions in French, to set a definite precedent. Eventually

we can push the boundaries, and instead of the stupid theoretical debates about "should we allow questions in non-English languages", we can do better debates about "ok, so this one is in Russian/German, do we actually have enough high-rep users who look at the moderation queues and understand enough of Russian/German". Eventually we have questions in like five languages, and we win.

And note that at that point, I will be answering French questions in English if they're questions that I can answer, and I almost certainly still won't be posting questions in Hungarian here, because no, we won't have enough mods who understand Hungarian, and we won't get a critical mass, because there is already a good forum in Hungarian with experts in literature and ancient history, and you can't break that sort of thing easily.

Sorry for the wall of text, but this is an important thing for me.

And please also understand that Lit will always be newer than Sci Fi, and for that reason when I have a question about Lem or Verne, there's still quite a good chance that I'll ask it on Sci Fi, depending on the nature of the question.

But this isn't specific to Verne, the same thing happens about Harry Potter and Tolkien.

Eddie Kal

18:13

@b_jonas I am curious about "elsewhere", other websites?

What kind of sites?

b_jonas

@EddieKal I have like ten questions on hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Tudakoz%C3%B3 hu.Wikipedia reference desk. I also have one or two old story-id questions on the en.Wikipedia reference desk en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk , such as the one that turned out to be by Brian Lecomber, and those I would now ask on Lit, but that question precedes Lit. And yes, I have some questions cross-posted to SE, but not the ones about Hungarian poetry.

Eddie Kal

@b_jonas Didn't know Wikipedia could be so useful on an interactive level. That's great!

b_jonas

There's also www.giantitp.com/forums/ where we discuss TV shows and webcomics and similar, but those are mostly not in a question-answer format, so they wouldn't work well on SE.

Also the board en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/… specifically for finding copies of articles of books when they're not easy to locate, including works of which digital copies are not yet available.

That one is especially helpful when people from North America want to find something from journals or books published in Europe.

(Yes, I'm in Europe.)

Here's that old story-id question I was talking about: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/…

It's from 2011

Stupid chat can't convert URLs properly. let me try again.

though at least it only messed up the fragment. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2011_July_7#Find_a_fiction_book:_pilot's_girlfriend_must_land_small_airplane_when_pilot_falls_unconscious">this story-id question. SE: your mama so fat he doesn't remember that ASCII apostrophes are valid characters in an URL. this isn't one of those stupid cases with the messed up ipv6 syntax.</a>

that's better, now at least it didn't turn it to half a link.

I also occasionally suggests users on one forum to cross-post on another forum if they don't get an answer. And then they cross-post without a link to their previous post, even if I specifically tell them to add a link, so I have to add the links myself. Happens with Star Wars questions that I direct to Sci Fi.

Ok, admittedly the latter part only happened once, and it wasn't for Star Wars.

Eddie Kal

18:34

@Tsundoku You probably already know this, but I used "shagsbeer" for some specific reason. "Shag" is not a good word in BrE. Although in North America it just means a hairstyle, but when North Americans ask for a shag in a barbershop in the UK, they are likely going to end up naked with a stranger if wish granted.

@b_jonas Yeah I see a lot of cross posts sans source/link. Happens a lot on ELL/ELU. A lot of people seem to think they should ask on a forum (for example WordReference.com in the case of English questions) and then ask again on ELL/ELU just so they can compare the answers and verify if they have been given correct information.

But that actually hinders them getting the right answers. In some cases they are simply getting overlapping answers that echo one another. In some other cases the misinformation given on other sites or their own misunderstanding is made harder to correct if they don't give people the whole picture.

b_jonas

@EddieKal I mostly see it on our math sites, where sometimes people crosspost to two or three sites at the same time without any cross-links, and it's rather stupid because the readers of those sites overlap a lot. Also happens among the eight divisions of the en.Wikipedia refdesk.

If we do realize that it might be a cross-post, then the other posts are easy to find, but sometimes we don't realize, and waste time writing answers without seeing the answers on the other forum.

The ones that get caught in time sometimes end up deleted, so you don't see them as much as it happens unless you read fresh questions often.

And some of them are low quality questions that get closed regardless of the cross-post anyway.

Eddie Kal

18:54

@b_jonas This I totally agree with.

And the problem I see with SE sites is granted Meta is a great tool for discussions about issues concerning the "community" when they arise but then Meta posts are complied together as the great site Canon with a capital C, prefaced, introductioned, annotated, bookbound, and then put on a pedestal for later generations to defer to.

That is a good practice and there may not be better solutions to community building yet, but it doesn't mean that practice is perfect

One issue is the "community" is never defined. It can't be defined. It is used as a placeholder and as a perpetual justification for righteousness.

The problem is an online community as always is fluid and amorphous

If y'all want my two cents, I'd say if Lit SE really wants people who are into non-English literature and who know a thing or two about literary theory and its implications in social contexts, Lit has to be ready to change.

But that is a big if: that's only worth pondering over if you want to make Lit a more welcoming place that attracts non-English literature readers, students, and dare I say professionals.

Eddie Kal

19:14

The problem also applies to English language literature too, and more so probably. When a site's existing content comprises 29 questions about Agatha Christie, 52 questions about C.S. Lewis, 65 questions about J.R.R. Tolkien and in shameful comparison Toni Morrison 7, Maya Angelou 0, James Baldwin 1, you know something isn't right.

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/c-s-lewis

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/agatha-christie

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/j-r-r-tolkien

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/toni-morrison

Among the seven Morrison questions: 3 remain unanswered and 3 were from the same user

literature.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/james-baldwin

If anybody is happy with this, with the status quo, and with how things are and however them come off to black readers of literature please just be forthright about it. That's what I am trying to say here.

And you ask me why I get all worked up about a misspelling of some Japanese writer's name you've never heard of? For real???

There is an undercurrent that I have sensed flowing here. You don't want me to call it out by its name, fine. It must not be named. But I see some votes, some likes and some comments straight out of that undercurrent. I am always willing to talk about it but the discussion needs to be forthright, honest, and communally meaningful. I am not going to dance around some "taboo" just because I am not "supposed" to talk about it

I see the likes and upvotes on the "Cultural Marxism" question and comments and the likes and upvotes on that Genji question in response to me calling it out not as oddities or isolated events. They are everywhere. Whenever someone makes a rape joke on Reddit and some people get offended and react strongly, you always see some silent likes on the joke and thumbs-down on the accusatory comments. "What's the big harm?" they might tell you. Or more likely they don't say anything.

Just act hiding behind the great convenience proffered by a system designed to maintain anonymity and equality.

How in the hell does "because the OP was sleeping" under this question merit a like? literature.stackexchange.com/questions/15351/…

"Oh the question has been unjustly closed by a moderator who must have done so for ideological reasons. I must come to this dude's aid because I know how those evil those theory people are." Come-to-aid votes are unjustified and plain wrong.

And this one

The author and book referred to is, Kensuboro Oe. The book is, 'A Personal Matter', and the proper term is phenomenological, it marks the type of literature. It is often associated with 'stream of consciousness' writing. Mr. Kensuboro won the Nobel Prize in Literature. Highly recommend you become acquainted with 'Bird' — Charles M Saunders yesterday

Mithical

19:46

Okay, time out one second.

You seem to be attributing malice to the lack of diversity and posts on actual literary theory here. I strongly disagree with that. The lack of diversity and, well, people who know what they're talking about, comes from the audience that existed when the site was created.

The vast majority of people contributing to this site have not studied literature at any depth, and a large percentage are coming from a Anglo-centric background. I'm including myself in this - anything I know about literature comes from participating on this site since it was created.

People downvote questions - and upvote comments - for all sorts of reasons. Yes, one reason may be that they don't care about diversity or expanding beyond an Anglo-centric view of literature. But you have no proof of that, and you're assuming ill intent of the entire site due to a couple comment upvotes.

You feel that the site needs more diverse content? Great; I agree. Instead of condemning everybody here as being unwilling to work on their biases and the site for lacking content, help contribute that content. Ask questions. Post answers. Change isn't going to happen immediately, and complaining about it in chat isn't going to really help.

The one person who really contributed to increasing the literary theory content on this site was Hamlet, and he left years ago.

Eddie Kal

> Instead of condemning everybody here as being unwilling to work on their biases and the site for lacking content

Mithical

We're actively working on addressing the Anglo-centric nature of the site; that's most of the point of the topic challenges existing.

Eddie Kal

^that I think is mischaracterized

You don't think that is "attributing malice"?

Mithical

I'm calling it as I see it. That is the impression you are giving me. Perhaps unintentional.

Eddie Kal

Same

And I have to be extra cautious when I call it because people get defensive

Mithical

19:50

I'd love to learn more about literary theory. Unfortunately, I don't really have the time to dedicate to studying it at the moment.

Eddie Kal

I am just calling a bigger timeout and a huddle-up to talk about the problems

A first step towards a productive discussion could be "Okay here are the problems. And let's go down the list"

Mithical

Alright, so let's talk about it, without attributing malice when all that's there is ignorance.

Eddie Kal

@Mithical Let's not talk about theory. Not interested. Distracting.

I'd rather talk about numbers, like 65, and 0

Mithical

Would diversity of authors be a better topic?

Eddie Kal

That's exactly what I am trying so hard to get people to look at and think about

Mithical

19:54

And sure. That's one thing I've actively been trying to work on.

Eddie Kal

I am getting a defensive and negative vibe from you and I understand why

Tsundoku

@EddieKal You know, before I closed that question, I checked whether the OP had returned to the site to read an earlier comment I had posted. They had come back and they had done nothing about the question. So the excuse that they were sleeping looked pathetically weak.

Eddie Kal

But if you get defensive how about think for a second if the accusing party is malicious?

@Mithical That's not good enough and I don't think I even need to tell you why that's not good enough.

Seven years ago people like Alicia Garza, Patrisse Cullors, Opal Tometi were all getting the same response: "Oh instead of hating on white people and accusing everybody of racism how about you do something useful?"

> Instead of condemning everybody here as being unwilling to work on their biases and the site for lacking content, help contribute that content. Ask questions. Post answers. Change isn't going to happen immediately, and complaining about it in chat isn't going to really help.

Tsundoku

@Mithical "We're actively working on addressing the Anglo-centric nature of the site" might be read as if this were a collective enterprise, when it's really a small subset of participants who are actively doing this. At the same time, attributing an undercurrent to the entire "community" (whatever that terms stands for) wouldn't be fair either.

2

Mithical

Whether that's literature by Native authors, queer authors or singers, or Black authors.

Yes, I'm a bit defensive, because this is one area where I am actively trying (and a large percentage of the questions I ask with diverse authors get laregly ignored).

@Tsundoku Alright. "we" was meant to refer to the "active" users, who participate in the topic challenges.

I'm saying that I understand where @EddieKal is coming from, and largely agree.

But I'm getting the impression of a presumption of malice rather than a presumption of ignorance.

Tsundoku

20:01

Right, I also see the topic challenges as part of this effort. (Which is why I proposed a different approach to them instead of letting them die.)

Mithical

And that is my problem.

Tsundoku

I also object to the presumption of malice.

I'm European and studied English and German literature at university. That has lead to a certain bias in my questions and answers (Shakespeare, Shakespeare, Shakespeare). Is that malice?

Eddie Kal

@Mithical "Ask questions. Post answers." I am doing one post a day, every day since I made my first appearance in this room. I know it can't even begin to compare to your contribution to this site, but saying that to me is unfair and uncalled for.

I have stayed true to my word.

Mithical

I apologize. That was uncalled for, yes.

Eddie Kal

In the same vein I am going to stay true to you too and the best way I can do that is tell you how I feel and what I have observed.

Tsundoku

20:05

We need to post questions about non-English and non-European literatures, even if they get ignored for some time, to attract people who may be able to answer them. I have no illusion that this will take time.

Eddie Kal

@Mithical All good

I am going to take a lunch break. I know you guys are busy. I am going to come back and write some more. I will read every response to what I have said and reciprocate it with a reply if needed

Mithical

Slightly relevant but mostly not, The Summer of Everything came out yesterday.

Tsundoku

@EddieKal I intend to write a detailed answer to that question about Critical Theory and Cultural Marxism, but it will take time.

Anyway, I need to go offline now to do some stuff in "meatspace".

Bookworm

20:47

0

Q: Examples of this motif: after a long journey the person the protagonist came to see is dead or missing

In one literary (and cinematic) motif the protagonist, after a long journey, arrives to find the person he or she has come to see is dead or missing. Eg Lem's Solaris, the film The Third Man. Other literary examples?

motif

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