The Reading Room

BESW

13:00

TL;DR.

Benjamin

I think the key point I am going to hammer home is that on Stack Exchange we have too much emphasis on form and too little focus on content. I will illustrate this by invoking examples such as that TEDx Talk, the Chicken paper, and The Library of Babel, the short story by Jorge Luis Borges.

@BESW Does that make any sense? I am writing right now in a rush.

BESW

You might look for examples on the Stack as well, like SFF's documented tendency to upvote answers with screencaps no matter how unrelated.

Locutus of Borg

sock drops out

Benjamin

@BESW I'll take a look at that and discuss the form of meta posts.

Mithrandir

13:17

AGHHHH

Rand al'Thor, Bengaluru, Karnataka, India

3 4

wheel-of-time

Standback

@BESW So, do you mind if I pick on your question some more? :)

BESW

Shoot.

But try to focus on it as its own thing, rather than as representative of that sort of question.

Standback

Fair enough.

1. In its current form, it seems to me to be very clearly asking 2 different things in the same question:

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor is this your sock? *wiggles eyebrows*

Standback

(A) Is the supplementary material crucial?
(B) Reading order?

I have zero issue with (A), but IMHO that should totally be its own question. It's well-scoped, answerable, solves a problem.

BESW

13:21

Right. But they're so interconnected that I think it's legit to ask them together. A good reading order answer should address the necessity of the supplementary material, and while the supplementary question can be asked separately, a really solid answer to it will also talk about reading order.

Standback

(B) on the other hand, is entirely unclear to me:

Why are you assuming you need a reading order guide?

Why is reading order unclear to you?

BESW

Because publication order and chronological order seem equally reasonable to someone like me who hasn't read the material yet, but it's common knowledge (see: Machete Order) that neither of those is automatically a good (much less ideal) way to consume a series.

Standback

THAT'S the assumption I have trouble with :(

BESW

Given two equally reasonable options it'd be reasonable to ask between them.

Standback

You're saying it's always fine to ask for reading order for a series. You don't need any justification/motivation/need beyond "it's a series."

BESW

13:26

Given that often an alternative third or fourth option is suggested in these kinds of cases, it seems even MORE reasonable--but without the first, I probably wouldn't bother.

@Standback I think you're skipping the entire first part of my sentence.

Standback

See, this is precisely why I'm saying this is just a tightly-scoped reading recommendation.

BESW

I don't think a reading order for Lord of the Rings or The Prydain Chronicles would be a very useful question.

But an ROQ for Redwall or Pern would be, because the publication order and the chronology aren't matched up.

The "there's sometimes a third option too" is just gravy on the primary reason.

Standback

OK, so those are precisely questions saying, "I have several options of where to begin, which should I pick." That's where we've got clear disagreement, right?

BESW

I guess I don't see why that's a problem.

Standback

I didn't say it was a problem, I said we disagree :)

BESW

13:30

What are you saying we disagree on?

Please articulate both sides as you understand them, rather than just one.

Standback

(To be precise, I think it is a problem, and you think it isn't :P )

Sure :)

In the context of a series, a newcomer will be looking for a good entry point.

BESW

(Because to my eye, you just said two opposite things as if they're both your point of view.)

Standback

The newcomer may know of several likely options; they may not know anything at all.

You see a reading-order question as a helpful way to resolve that difficulty. Every answer can present a recommended reading-order, and justify it, and then the newcomer will know where to begin.

Problem raised; problem solved.

Right?

BESW

Tentatively, yes.

Standback

Cool.

I have two major issues with that approach:

BESW

13:34

(I'm cautious of Kantian misunderstandings in primary definitions for something like that.)

Standback

First, a reading-order question is massive overkill for "what book should I read first." I would say the correct question there should be, well, "what book should I read first." "What is a good entry point to the series."

Bookworm

0

Q: Who killed Asmodean?

Asmodean pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him. Who killed Asmodean? I am pretty sure it was one of ...

robert-jordan wheel-of-time

Mithrandir

Super User spam for whoever wants

Standback

Those are just two completely different levels of complexity. Answers become more directly helpful and comparable. They're more limited in scope, which can also encourage better answers than justifying a complete series list.

And secondly, "what book should I read first" is a reading recommendation question. I'm not saying to reject it on those grounds, but I think it absolutely needs to be acknowledged.

BESW

Okay, so here's where I have to go back and argue the definition: "entry point" is insufficient for any question I'd ask on the subject. It's like saying "Which Star Wars movie should I watch first?" Great question, but experience tells me the querent's misunderestimating the scope of the situation and a good answer should expand on it dramatically to talk about all the movies and the order to watch them.

Standback

13:39

Because the basic statement being made here is "Reading recommendations are OK, provided that they are well-argued and tightly-scoped." Which is an argument I agree can be made, but in point of fact, hasn't been.

BESW

"Which book in [bounded set] should I read first?" implies, in almost every case, "which book in [bounded set] should I read after that?" and so forth.

Standback

...you're assuming the reader has precommitted to reading the whole series before they read one book.

Mithrandir

New Hot Network Question(s) detected:

8

Q: What is the "Intentional Fallacy"?

The intentional fallacy is described in Wimsatt and Beardsley's essay "The Intentional Fallacy". What exactly is the intentional fallacy, and is it still relevant today?

theory

BESW

And you're assuming they haven't.

Neither of these is an unreasonable assumption.

Standback

...if they have, that should be in the question.

BESW

13:41

How is "what order should I read this series in" not a declaration of intent?

Standback

Fair point.

BESW

Or are you seriously proposing that all reading order questions are, in fact, suffering from the XY problem?

Shokhet

@Hamlet Of course not.

There's only one of you, right?

Mithrandir

@Shokhet That's what you think...

Shokhet

@Mithrandir Hmmm...

Standback

13:43

@BESW The ones that don't lay out a motivation, seem to me like either XY questions, or like frivolous questions.

BESW

And given "what order should I read the series" implies "I have already chosen to read this series," doesn't that make it not a reading recommendation?

It's a "how do I read [set of things I will read]?" question. It's not a "which of this [set of things I will read one of] should I read?" question.

Standback

OK. I'm seeing your point here. Interesting.

Shokhet

Oh. I see you're already discussing this

Now I have to play catch-up in chat....

BESW

Oh, and by the way. Here, have more than 400 questions about the best choices to make within a wide but bounded set of options based on detailed information about the querent's unique situation.

It's absolutely doable.

Mithrandir

@BESW Only 391 out of 453 not closed.

BESW

13:48

It's one of our higher close-ratio tags, but it doesn't cause a lot of extra curation and the quality/effort ratio is high.

If it ever became a chore to curate, we'd talk seriously about shutting it down.

But we won't shut it down because it might become a chore at some future point.

Standback

(I have a particular issue with reading-order questions, as being extremely easy to ask and pretty easy to answer, by simply pulling up the publication order. Build optimization doesn't have that dynamic, AFAIK.)

(But that's an aside.)

BESW

That's a good point. It's entirely unrelated to everything you've said so far, though.

Standback

My opinions; they are a sprawling, shambling thing.

Or: One thing at a time. :)

BESW

It's a good sand/pearl concern.

Standback

Thanks :)

BESW

13:51

I'd address it in three parts:

Standback

::attentive::

BESW

First: see if people actually do ask many ROQs that can be answered so easily.
Second: if they do, enforce basic GS/BS and subjective-question standards on them and see if that fixes things. I suspect it would by demanding that questions provide more details and answers more explanations.
Third: if that doesn't work AND trivial ROQs are actually creating a nuisance, *then* revisit the issue of the site's sustained support for ROQs.

Shokhet

@BESW That TED Talk is great :D

Mithrandir

(Markup doesn't work if you
do this)

BESW

@Mithrandir Aye, but people use asterisks for emphasis in non-markdown environments commonly enough that in this case it doesn't impair meaning.

Standback

13:57

@BESW I'm concerned both about ROQs answered easily, and ROQs nobody bothers to answer. Both of them add sand.

Rand al'Thor

This is what happens when I spend a day doing too much chatting and too little posting.

Shokhet

@BESW I haven't read all 5 meta answers yet, but this here makes sense

BESW

I've found on other stacks that sometimes questions which we're concerned will be awful sand, just... don't get asked in non-pearlescent ways often enough to bother with.

Shokhet

@Randal'Thor Yep. Post moar!! :P

BESW

@Standback Unanswered questions are a very different thing. There's a great many reasons for them.

Martin Ender

14:00

Since you guys are still discussing reading-order questions, I hope you don't mind if I plug my answer, since I finally finished writing up my thoughts on this:

0

A: When are reading-order questions on topic?

Don't ask for a recommended reading order, ask for things that inform a choice of reading order Let me back up a bit. Why do people want to ask about reading order in the first place? In 99% of the cases, you can't possibly go wrong with publication order. This is the order hundreds, thousands o...

Standback

@BESW : Well, thank you. You've given me a lot to think about.

I'm re-evaluating my thoughts, and skimming back over existing questions and answers.

BESW

Thank you for your patience and helping me see the issue through different eyes.

Standback

Likewise :)

Martin Ender

Side note: the parenthetical "(had to)" in my first paragraph is super awkward because it changes the pronunciation of the subsequent "read", and I have a feeling that I left it in because of that in not in spite of that...

Shokhet

@MartinEnder Don't mind at all. Giving it a read now :)

Rand al'Thor

14:07

Feb 18 at 1:10, by Rand al'Thor

I promise this is not my sock.

Well, I haven't read through all the discussion in here about that new reading-order question on meta, but having looked at the answers there, I'd tend to agree with @Shokhet's. Not sure why it was at the bottom of the vote pile.

The whole rationale behind allowing any reading-order questions is that they're Good Subjective. So if we're talking about which to allow and which to close, surely the question of "do they actually count as Good Subjective?" should be paramount.

If they're part of the same series, set in the same world, featuring the same characters, or otherwise somehow linked, then there might be good reasons for one reading order above another. If they're not linked in-universe in any way (even if they're written by the same author), then the question isn't much more than a recommendation question.

BESW

@Randal'Thor I think his answer presupposes the querent knowing an unusual amount about the subject matter prior to reading it. Martin's answer gives a similar result with a clearer mandate that'd actually make it possible for people to ask non-rhetorical questions on the subject.

Also, simply "all part of the same series" is not, by Standback's criterion, sufficient.

BESW

15:09

(And I rather agree that "all part of the same series" or "shares some characters" merits at least some good solid downvoting if that's the only given reason for a ROQ.)

Mithrandir

15:37

*yawn*

Riker

@Mithrandir hahahahaha

thanks tho

Mithrandir

:P

DForck42

mornin

Mithrandir

@DForck42 night

DForck42

15:53

@Mithrandir any news from the parents?

Mithrandir

@DForck42 yep

So the Stack said that they would tell me when my term starts.

DForck42

@Mithrandir yay!

Mithrandir

Now I'm just wondering who the other two are...

Riker

hamlet and emrak methinks

Mithrandir

Probably.

afk

Bookworm

16:34

0

Q: How many gables are there in a four-gabled house?

In "The Fifth Gable" by Kay Chronister, the protagonist interacts with the women who live in the four-gabled house. Which, suddenly and inexplicably, at the end of the story finds itself with five gables. “Where are we going?” said Marigold. “The fifth gable,” said the woman who made her...

short-stories kay-chronister

Mithrandir

16:47

@Bookworm ...4?

DForck42

@Mithrandir right?

Shokhet

17:22

@Mithrandir ikr? So...why do they suddenly walk into "the fifth gable"? @DForck42

DForck42

@Shokhet I have no idea

i don't even understand what a gable is

Catija

Mithrandir

@Shokhet because magic

</SFF>

DForck42

@Catija do you go to Goodrich theatres? cause they've got a clark gable movie they're playing soon

Catija

@DForck42 I don't think they have those here. :(

Gallifreyan

17:31

Isn't this a spoiler in title?

4

Q: Who killed Asmodean?

Asmodean pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him. Who killed Asmodean? I am pretty sure it was one of ...

robert-jordan wheel-of-time

Riker

yes

Gallifreyan

Shouldn't we change it to something less revealing?

DForck42

@Gallifreyan yes

Riker

already done

> Before that, there was a lot of speculation about who killed Asmodean. The pinnacle of that was this Sherlock Holmes fanfiction

> wheel-of-time

Gallifreyan

@Riker my hero!

Riker

17:35

> Sherlock Holmes fanfiction

@Gallifreyan <shrug> I've read hte books and that is a pretty big spoiler

asmodean is one of the forsaken (well "was" technically) and a pretty big bad guy

Gallifreyan

That fanfic even ends with "Elementary, my dear Watson."

Riker

lol

> Don't you mean 'his or her,' old chap? After all, a great many WoT fans are female!
> My dear fellow, surely you have not forgotten your grammar lessons as a schoolboy, when we were taught that the masculine pronoun is always to be employed when referring to a hypothetical individual of unknown gender? I deplore this modern tendency to pander to those person who try to split hairs in their burning desire to change everyone else's speech patterns 'for our own good,' and I have no intention of using the plural pronoun 'them' when referring to a single human being of unknown identity either!

holmes vs gender rights

@Randal'Thor yeah that's a better title thanks

Gallifreyan

Btw, the author of that fanfic is on SE

Lorendiac

4.7k 1 10 52

story-identification short-stories batman history-of dc-comics time-travel science-fiction-genre

fanfiction.net/u/583714/Lorendiac

Riker

loll

Gallifreyan

Now I'm ashamed I researched that

Riker

17:41

oh hey he's the maker of the really ID question on movies.se

Gallifreyan

Actually, I got trolled by my university 2 days ago. I opened my e-mail and there was one message with the title "Stalking is not always something to be ashamed of!". While I was biting my elbows and wondering what gave me away, the body of the message read "...invites you to stalk your career opportunities"

@Riker that is one awesome ID question!

Riker

yes

@Gallifreyan rekt

Gallifreyan

@Riker what is that?

Riker

@Gallifreyan urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rekt

Shokhet

@DForck42 merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gable

"Anne of Green Gables"?

@Mithrandir Very likely

DForck42

17:55

@Shokhet ahh

Mithrandir

25

A: The many memes of scifi.stackexchange

Meme: "Because, magic" Originator: SFF.se Harry Potter fans. Cultural Height: The wave has yet to crest! Currently active: Yes Background: In October/November 2011, SFF.se approved Harry Potter as a Q&A topic. Since that time, hundreds of users, perhaps thinking they were clever and iconocla...

Shokhet

@Mithrandir I see

I'm not all that active on SFF

Mithrandir

18:55

Mods are: @Mithrandir | @Hamlet | @Emrakul

Librarian

6

Q: Moderator Pro Tem Announcement

Throughout the beta, we need members from the site whose focus is to engage the community, both in community-building issues and site management. That's why we select a few members from each community to act as temporary, provisional moderators. You can read about the program here: Moderators Pro...

discussion featured moderation

Mithrandir

19:15

o_o

Catija

Congrats Pro-Tems!

10

Mithrandir

:D

Time to pull out my sock...

Catija

Mithrandir

o_O

His name is Locutus of Borg...

Catija

I google "Socks" click to images... and gravitate towards the Star Trek ones... figures.

Riker

19:26

woot!

@Catija @Mithrandir pin this pls?

or maybe:

Catija

Write something nicer and I'll pin it.

2

Riker

Congratulations to our three pro tempore moderators, Mithrandir, Hamlet, and Emrakul!

15

@Hamlet @Mithrandir @Emrakul congrats!

Bookworm

0

Q: Why did the doctor give Count Bezukhov cream of tarter?

In War and Peace, Count Bezukhov's doctors gave him Cream of Tartar after his stroke. What purpose did that serve? I haven't been able to find anything about medical benefits of cream of tartar that seem even vaguely related to this condition.

russian-literature historical-context leo-tolstoy

Bookworm

19:45

0

Q: Did C. S. Lewis support the Ransom Theory in the Chronicles of Narnia?

Some critics have claimed that the explanation of Aslan's sacrifice in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe supports the ransom theory of the atonement. However, I haven't been able to find anything in Lewis's other works to support that. Are there opinions on whether that passage actually suppo...

c-s-lewis the-chronicles-of-narnia

Bookworm

20:07

2

Q: Does Jasper Fforde intend a sequel to Shades of Grey?

The novel Shades of Grey has a subtitle, The Road to High Saffron, though neither the US nor the UK editions include that on the cover. The book ends in a way that hints at a follow-up. But his web site has no sign of a sequel, and his forthcoming book begins a new series. The concept is fascina...

jasper-fforde shades-of-grey

Gallifreyan

@Hamlet @Mithrandir @Emrakul congratulations! ~~Damn, we have Rand's sock moderating us! :)~~

Mithrandir

@Gallifreyan *eyebrow*

user61230

@Gallifreyan Shhhhhhh. Nobody's supposed to know.

Gallifreyan

Time to start spamming those totally helpful custom mod flags

Mithrandir

...Actually, I think they have all been helpful so far.

user61230

20:14

Shhhh, they might get the idea that we actually read flags baahahaha

4

Gallifreyan

@Mithrandir I haven't started spamming them yet

Mithrandir

@Gallifreyan Well good, or I'll set Smokey on you.

And you know...

in Charcoal HQ, 2 days ago, by SmokeDetector

sharpens axe

Gallifreyan

@Mithrandir flagged for CMs, mod power overuse

Mithrandir

*clap clap* First one! :D

Catija

Um... I don't think you can CM flag chat messages...

Riker

20:15

lol

Gallifreyan

@Catija he didn't have to know that

Catija

@Gallifreyan He'd have figured it out eventually.

Riker

yeah

he's a mod

they're omniscient remember

Mithrandir

@Gallifreyan I already knew - there's only the mod flag and regular flag *shrug*

Gallifreyan

Eh... Well, have fun folks! I'm going to sleep.

Mithrandir

20:23

Night!

user61230

Goodnight!

Benjamin

@Mithrandir What?

Mithrandir

@Benjamin Another Rand.

Benjamin

@Riker No, Rand?

Riker

nope

mith is better than rand tho

mith fits with a night theme

for people who like living like vampires

Mithrandir

20:30

*eyebrow*

Rand's experienced. I'm not.

4

Riker

<shrug>

@Mithrandir yeah but like i said you fit night theme

Mithrandir

o_O I have too many tabs open now.

Riker

how many?

Mithrandir

5

I usually have two

And all of them are SE.

Riker

lol

I have about 8 open of SE

4 of github

and a couple others about schoolwork

Mithrandir

20:37

I've got this, Charcoal, Lit, and two secret mod rooms.

Riker

ooh boy sekrits?

Himarm

i keep about 10 tabs open

lots of reddit

Riker

oh yeah I have an askreddit window with like 6 also

Martin Ender

how do you people live. I have 12 pinned tabs. then 1 for chat, two or three for other SE stuff, and then normally about 5-10 others with the usual madness.

Mithrandir

You sound like my mother.

She keeps ~75 tabs open at once.

Martin Ender

20:48

I used to do that, but now I usually manage to keep the tab titles readable...

Riker

we're confirmed @Mithrandir's mother and @MartinEnder are both insane

Mithrandir

Nah

just slightly.

Himarm

21:01

when im working a problem for work i end up having like 30 tabs open all SO

each tab having a tiny part of what i need

Shokhet

21:20

I leave the site alone for just a little bit, and I come back and suddenly we have mods! Congrats guys! :) :) :)

Mithrandir

@Shokhet :D

BESW

21:35

My congratudolences to you all.

Hamlet

@BESW @verbose any chance one of you could write up an answer to literature.stackexchange.com/q/1784/111? (Especially since all of the answers there don't seem to take into account the points you raised in chat)?

BESW

If/when I have the time to get all those ducks in a row.

Hamlet

@BESW please???

BESW

@Hamlet If you can psychically discern what my client really wants in this blurb on Arthur Miller, I'll have time to run down documentation on the intentional fallacy. Or maybe you can research resume formats for the visually impaired for me.

Hamlet

@BESW resume formats for the visually impaired sounds interesting, I'll do that

Here's a link that is a good starting point: muse.jhu.edu/article/213841/pdf

BESW

21:56

urrgh defense of the intentional fallacy using author-as-gardener. [takes deep breaths]

....I think in order to answer the intentional fallacy question properly first there needs to be a better answer to the authorial authority question.

Specifically a discussion of the author-god.

Not sure, though.

Hamlet

@BESW here's an article about how employers discriminate against resumes of the visually impaired: mikkihebl.com/uploads/9/0/2/3/90238177/49.pdf

I did my research, it's your turn ;)

Matrim Cauthon

Congrats to our first mods! @Emrakul @Mithrandir @Hamlet

Hamlet

@MatrimCauthon thank you

verbose

22:22

Yea! Congratulations! Great choices. These three have done and will do a marvelous job in shaping the community. It was heartening that there were so many other wonderfully well qualified and experienced candidates too, which is a good sign for down the road when we have actual elections.

@Hamlet yeah it's on the to-do list but dunno when I'll get around to it.

Hamlet

@verbose yay!

Thanks for the kind words

Bookworm

0

Q: Who did Simon represent during his conversation with the beast?

The Beast's conversation with Piggy is one of the most debated conversations in literature. The fact that the beast represents the devil (Beelzebub specifically), leads me to think that Simon is playing the role of Jesus or an angel. Are there any other examples in the book that portray Simon a...

william-shakespeare lord-of-the-flies

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