The Reading Room - 2017-09-03

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12:23 AM

@Randal'Thor nice

@Hamlet The star reason has to be clear from just the message text? So that's why saying crap gets you stars. But people can click on the message in the starboard and see the message in context.

3

@Ash .oO(should I star this one?)

12:53 AM

To me the rule of thumb is the message itself is noteworthy and people would want to come across it later, or it's a signpost to direct people to an earlier conversation (and it's a half-decent signpost somehow reflective of what the conversation involved). Given several stars inside the same conversation I'll cancel stars down to a handful or just one, preference given to the better signposts.

It varies between rooms and individuals, so there are many rules of thumb, but that one is more or less mine.

1:31 AM

5

Q: Can Literature be an exception for the SE rule that removes single-use tags?

Part of the general network-wide SE code involves automatically removing single-use tags from the system. If a tag has no tag wiki and has only been used on a single question, it automatically disappears after a certain period of time, leaving that single question either with whatever other tags ...

feature-request tags

1:44 AM

Speaking of Music Fans...

5

A: What should answers look like to questions about the meaning of lyrics?

First I think we have to realize that the meaning of lyrics may have multiple interpretations especially to different people. We should seek answers that are either: Interpretations from the person who wrote the lyrics. Commonly accepted interpretations. The first should be preferred over th...

(written by a mod of the site)

3 hours later…

4:19 AM

@BESW took your advice and asked a question about Bob Dylan. To make it more approachable to this community, I related an analysis of the lyrics of the song to an analysis of the performance of the song.

Hopefully this site's foray into questions about music will be a success. Of course, if it isn't, then no lasting harm done. But let's wait and see and get some actual data about how these questions work, and what types of questions work well and what types don't.

Again, get data before you make sweeping scope decisions. That should be the rule of any beta site.

1

Q: Is Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall" supposed to be uplifting or mournful?

I've become interested in Bob Dylan's song "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall", which I find perplexing and hard to make sense of. Looking at the lyrics, it seems that there is quite a bit of ambiguity as to how the song should be interpreted. Here's the first verse: Oh, where have you been, my blue...

bob-dylan music

Area51 data does not count because you can't actually see what types of answers questions receives. You need to see how actual questions on an actual Q&A site do. (In response to someone who suggested that the list of proposed questions from the Area51 definition state was a good source of data as to what questions should be on-topic or off-topic).

@Bookworm oh, that's cool, already one upvote.

My hunch is of course that understanding the sound of literature is a significant part of understanding the meaning of literature, and that questions about sounds will become a crucial part of this site. This hunch is supported by the success of the scansion tag. But at the moment it is only a hunch. Data, data, data!

5:01 AM

@Mithrandir @doppelgreener @BESW consider giving this question an upvote

-2

Q: Why is "I Dreamed There Was No War" a war protest song in spite of having no lyrics?

I Dreamed There Was No War from The Eagles' 2007 album Long Road out of Eden is purely instrumental with the directest statement about its meaning being its title (which was presumably a statement about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan). That being the case, in what sense is this a war protest so...

song-lyrics music

And to the close voters, lets give that question a chance to see how it actually performs.

2 hours later…

6:36 AM

@Hamlet yeah, I think Robert mentioned something like that when talking about the next incarnation of A51.

user15026

6:58 AM

@Hamlet but isn't voting to close part of seeing how it performs? It has down votes, it is getting close votes, people don't seem to want it.

2

7:10 AM

9 hours ago, by BESW

@Hamlet So, make a meta saying you want to put a temporary reprieve on [subject] until more is known about it so an informed decision can be made. We've done that on RPG.SE.

His concern is that the not-wanting is not an informed not-wanting, and that it can't become informed so long as questions are closed based on the uninformed not-want.

2 hours later…

9:23 AM

@Hamlet And I will continue to defend starring whatever people want to star.

The starboard isn't exactly the most important part of the chat to deserve being moderated so vigorously.

user image

Let's star this chewing bun ^_^

2

3 hours later…

Napoleon Wilson

12:07 PM

@Hamlet Well, not that it's closeable anymore anyway, since it has an open bounty. (And I'm sure any possible existing close-votes were reset by the deletion-undeletion process, too. Possibly even with the effect of people not being able to repeat their close-vote, as the undeletion might count as a reopening.) So you shouldn't have to worry too much.

That being said, I'm sure programming questions would "perform" pretty well here, too, since we know they are well-fit for the SE platform and there's probably many users who can answer them.

@BESW Where's that meta?

12:20 PM

This bun is pretty hypnotic, actually.

12:55 PM

@NapoleonWilson no. The 3 close votes survived the deletion.

1:06 PM

@Hamlet I strongly disaprove of your bounty on that question. When there's a dispute on a questions's topicality, the correct course of action is to take it to meta, not place a bounty. By placing a bounty on it you denied it the chance to go trhough the review queue, and denied others to cast a close vote on it.

There was a reverse incident on Movies, when a user placed a bounty on a question to close it. That user was scolded and their bounty removed by a moderator.

Napoleon Wilson

@Mithrandir Ah, good.

They'll probably age away now, though.

My point is, placing a bounty on a question when its topicality is being discussed is an abuse of the system. By doing so instead of taking it to meta you have exceeded your moderator bounds.

(I haven't voted either way on that question, mainly because it was only discussed in comments or here, and not on meta.)

Napoleon Wilson

1:48 PM

@Gallifreyan It was.

Well then, it should be closed.

Does adding a bounty really remove a question from the review queue?

I did not know it did, or else I wouldn't have added the bounty

It certianly prevents further close votes from being placed.

@Gallifreyan really?

(I actually didn't know that).

Could someone link me to the meta discussion?

@Gallifreyan

user image

I don't know if there's a meta which states this, but I can't vote to close it.

1:56 PM

@Gallifreyan oh, I'm really sorry. I removed the bounty

Thank you.

If I had known that was something that happened, I wouldn't have done it

2:18 PM

@Gallifreyan meta is not exempt from backing up claims.

The only argument people have been making is some hand-wavy appeal to a definition of literature.

But literature as a definition is so subjective that this wont work.

We need actual data about how these questions work to have a productive conversation.

You don't understand - it's irrelevant whether folks understand what they're talking about or not. We have a consensus - it reads "lyrics, not tunes". If you're willing to debate that, ask a new question on meta.

@Gallifreyan I did.

I do understand that there is a post that a lot of people during the private beta, many of whom are no longer active on the site, written by someone who told me in the comments that they do not agree with the post, upvoted.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet So what's the solution, synonymizing it with "art" in general and seeing what comes of it?

@NapoleonWilson prob not.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet They will work fine, as will questions about programming and architecture. But then what?

@Hamlet Indeed.

2:25 PM

@NapoleonWilson No one has given a plausible argument about archetecture. No one has tried to ask archetecture questions.

If those two things happen, then yes I would want to give archetecture questions a chance.

But I doubt that they will

(By "someone asked a question about it", I don't mean me testing the scope, I mean someone asking a good faith question).

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet To be honest I have an (imho) nice question about architecutre in stock. I even considered just throwing it out to test the waters about this whole "everything remotely artistic is literature" attitude. But then I thought that would bound on trolling if I personally don't deem it on-topic.

@Hamlet O_O

@NapoleonWilson a chance = let them exist and see what happens. Not make a binding decision that they are actually on topic.

@NapoleonWilson IDK, maybe that would actually be helpful.

We did ban recommendation questions though, probably before the first question was asked on the main site.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet Yeah, still, that's just...I don't really know what to say. There really doesn't seem to be a sensible limit to this site's scope for you.

@Gallifreyan that's because we had the data of how the old literature site turned out.

@NapoleonWilson I do think there will be a limit. I'm just not going to say what it is until there is actual evidence.

Napoleon Wilson

2:31 PM

If someone asks about carpentring a table on StackOverflow, there doesn't realy need to be a precedent to close that as 100% off-topic single-handedly.

@NapoleonWilson yep, Stack Overflow is much more objective than we are.

Napoleon Wilson

But okay, maybe there's some indigenous tribe that conciously records its history and its lore in the design of its buildings.

@NapoleonWilson then I would want a question about it.

Napoleon Wilson

We Westerners wouldn't want to offend them with a sane definition of site-scope. ;-)

And yes, cosmology is often reflected in architecture.

@NapoleonWilson or perhaps we would close questions about archetecture that aren't related to narratives/some definition

IDK, I don't actually know, and I'm not going to pretend I know

2:40 PM

@Shokhet Yo :D

2:51 PM

It's gotten lost in the drama, but this question needs some eyeballs

0

Q: Did Evelyn Waugh see himself as a conservative author, and/or did others categorize him as such?

Directly Did he openly and directly declare himself belonging to the conservative tradition? Indirectly or did he do it indirectly through his view of human nature and his choice of themes in his works? For example in his works about the decline of tradition (in example Brideshead Revisited)...

@Gallifreyan if I have to remove a bounty because it stops people from voting to close a question...

Yes?

Then I'm going to have to ask that you do to.

It's a mod-only thing. If that question is indeed off-topic (idk, I have no idea what's it askign about), then sure, if there's a meta decision.

@Gallifreyan I have no idea what it's asking about either. I'm trying to decide whether to close it.

Why? Seems answerable enough.

3:00 PM

@Gallifreyan What is a conservative author

There are several meanings of the phrase, I have no idea which the OP is refering to.

I guess an expert in Evelyn Waugh would know.

@NapoleonWilson well yes, there is

Have you ever heard of totem poles? ;)

@Mithrandir sounds like something to ask about on the main site

@Hamlet I wonder what happens if I try to mod close it while it has a bounty.

@Hamlet I'm not sure I'd like to go there quite yet.

Holy crap, IPS folks have a lot of rep already - compare interpersonal.stackexchange.com/… to literature.stackexchange.com/…

3:10 PM

@Gallifreyan yep

2

Q: Let's actually see how questions about music fit into the site before closing them as off-topic

This site has recently received three questions about music that go beyond looking looking at the lyrics, and ask about the sound music makes: Is Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall" supposed to be uplifting or mournful? What changes when you adapt Dickinson's "I'm Nobody" to an acoustic ro...

discussion scope

And they're what, 1/5th of our age?

@Gallifreyan are they making the internet a better place?

And their stats are all at "excellent"... cries in a ball and weeps

@Gallifreyan are they making the internet a better place?

3:13 PM

Well, I guess folks think about communicating with other folks more than they think about literature.

@Hamlet How would I know? I'm just saying they had a rocket-like start and are outdoing us stat-wise despite being younger.

Napoleon Wilson

@Mithrandir I'm sure there is. That wasn't really the point, though. ;-)

Not that better stats should be our priority, but we can learn some lessons from that.

Napoleon Wilson

@Librarian Aaand of course two of the questions it brings up are already on-topic by existing consensus, trying to sneak the third one in with it. We already know that lyrics and relations to other works of literature are fine.

@Gallifreyan no we cant

@NapoleonWilson only one of them is ontopic by existing consensus

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet Uh...which one would that be?

3:18 PM

@NapoleonWilson the emily dickinson one

Napoleon Wilson

And the Bob Dylan one isnt't?

Seems to be verses all over.

@NapoleonWilson verses but a discussion of the performance

Napoleon Wilson

(Except for the part about perfomances, which is related to the inherent discussion about the verses and their meaning and yet again tries to sneak non-lyrical discussion onto the site through a backdoor in an on-topic question.)

@NapoleonWilson and there is something wrong with that?

Napoleon Wilson

"Look, pure accoustic questions are totally fine because the acoustic qualities are also discussed in these otherwise on-topic existing questions." - That's not really how it works.

3:21 PM

@NapoleonWilson then write a meta answer

Napoleon Wilson

Noone's arguing against music in relation to its lyrics. But if that's a backdoor for pure music questions, something's wrong.

@Hamlet I'd rather just complain till things get more ridiculous. ;-)

But maybe I'll put that into an answer, as it's a dangerous conclusion I've repeatedly seen made here.

@NapoleonWilson the downvotes on my bob dylan question sugest otherwise

So does the text of that meta "consensus"

Napoleon Wilson

@NapoleonWilson And it's that same attitude that has me have a very keen eye on the David Lynch influence question.

@Hamlet Unfortunately, yeah, meta is exempt from having to back up claims. A meta answer which simply says "yes, let's do this" and has a very strong consensus supporting it does define policy. You can't deem a meta consensus invalid just because it's not well enough explained. But thanks for starting a new meta discussion! I was about to ask you to do that :-) — Rand al'Thor 1 min ago

3:50 PM

@NapoleonWilson another question about an instrumental, but with a clear connection to narrative. Let's figure out what the boundaries are.

Napoleon Wilson

Yeah, that's entirely a musical question. Relation to narrative and meaning doesn't seem to make it on-topic. "Literature" (or whatever definition of it this site comes up with) doesn't seem to necessarily own the concepts of meaning and narrative.

@NapoleonWilson "doesn't seem to necessarily own the concepts of meaning and narrative." well, Gilles literally said that they would be sympathetic to allowing all questions about narrative.

Which is the problem here. We won't be able to come to a consensus by debating definitions.

We need actual data.

Literature as a concept is too subjective to use as a scope.

0

Q: In Peter and the Wolf, why is Peter represented by a String quartet?

Sergei Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf is a combination of a children's story and a musical composition. A narrator narrates the story while an orchestra plays the corresponding music. According to the English translation of the performance instructions: Each character of this tale is represe...

music peter-and-the-wolf sergei-prokofiev

Even when you think you agree on something, you don't. This whole hand-wavy appeal to a definition of literature that still no one has bothered to define doesn't work.

Napoleon Wilson

Indeed it doesn't. That's why the appeal to "everything narrative/art is literature" is irrelevant to defining a sane site-scope.

4:00 PM

@NapoleonWilson I have done that in the past, but I am no longer doing that.

Napoleon Wilson

The site will admittedly always alienate some people, be that indigenous tribes that grew up with esoiteric forms of literature or people who get riled up about a site delving into a topic it has no business dealing with. I agree it's hard to find a middle ground there.

@NapoleonWilson "people who get riled up about a site delving into a topic it has no business dealing with" you have yet to present any sort of coherent argument about this point.

Napoleon Wilson

"instrumental music isn't literature" is the argument I would bring up. But I know you don't agree, let alone consider it a reasonable one. And I'm not claiming it is. That's for the lack of meta answers by me. ;-)

@NapoleonWilson good to see that someone recognizes that :)

Napoleon Wilson

And that the site didn't start out as Art.SE, which might be considered pedantry, but I never expected this to become a site about "everything possibly art", which honestly it seems you're trying to make it into. I don't consider that a sane scope because that's not how it was sold to us originally.

4:06 PM

@NapoleonWilson I'm not trying to make it Art.SE. I'm trying to make it Literature.SE. I just am not sure about the exact distinction is. And if people were honest, neither does anyone else.

If I was trying to make this Art.SE, I would propose that we rename the site to Arts.SE

Napoleon Wilson

And I won't even hide the obvious personal interest that this all is a dangerous foreshadowing of what's to come when someone finally finds out that films are literature and sees all the existing backdoor questions about it. This site just wasn't sold to me as "Literature and the good questions about music and films" and if that's what it's suddenly setting out to be, I'll be terribly upset, even if that's pretty much the only thing I can do.

@NapoleonWilson something something something scope shouldn't be determined by the existence of other Stacks about a topic, and I very much doubt that us talking about films would take traffic or people away from your site, or do your site any sort of harm.

I would be willing to try questions about movies/films to see how they work.

(In case it wasn't obvious)

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet I know it shouldn't. I'm not saying my motivation is entirely based on making this site the most awesomest place ever. Though, it isn't entirely based on my personal motivation either, neither will I use that as a reasonable argument in any discussion. It's a lot of factors coming together.

@Hamlet I...know.

But if that goal was sold to me from the outset, I could have chosen a different approach to this site from the very beginning.

@NapoleonWilson well, the problem is that it's hard to know anything about a site when it's in Area51.

@NapoleonWilson I'm really not sure why you are worried that us asking questions about movies would harm your site in any significant sort of way

Napoleon Wilson

Well, it's not too hard to know that it will be about literature. I was just too narrowly Western-minded to foresee the dangers, I guess. ;-)

4:15 PM

@NapoleonWilson you have good answers about movies, right? I'm sure you've been working for years on how to ask good questions and write good answers. It would be very hard to catch up to you.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet I don't know if it will. But I don't want to find out either. ;-) It feels like picking the cherries out of the existing sites. If you want to do music and films and you love all the great book-ID questions, then make yourself ready for some real treats when those two things converge (and don't dare shoo them away then).

(speculating because I haven't spend any sort of significant time on the site.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet Well, sure.

@Emrakul good luck with the transcript :)

user61230

[scrolls, rubs eyes, mumbles something about too early in the morning at 9 AM]

3

4:19 PM

@Emrakul I worded that meta question the way I did because I wanted to avoid a discussion about the definition of literature

user61230

I think a discussion of the definition of literature is valuable, and avoiding it leaves an elephant in the room.

@Emrakul but eh, I'm looking for your answer where you manage to bring everything together

@Emrakul there's been plenty of that valuable conversation in the transcript.

With actually some interesting examples.

That I turned into main site questions.

user61230

In order for music questions being on topic to make sense, it needs to be framed in the context where "literature is vague and hard to pin down" is in the community understanding.

@Emrakul you know a lot more about this than I do :)

user61230

Lemme poke around a bit. Today may not be the day for a lengthy reply, but today or tomorrow.

4:23 PM

@Emrakul there are four music questions that should serve as interesting test cases

user61230

I, really like your example questions.

Nothing about music theory, but that's mostly because I know nothing about it.

Of course, I'll probably get there eventually.

user61230

My gut says music theory shouldn't be the focus of the questions if they're fundamentally about understanding the content, but it certainly can be brought in as a tool to contextualize an answer. At least, that's probably where I'd lean.

@Emrakul know nothing about it so my gut says nothing

But yeah, don't make a decision without examples/data

user61230

Yeah.

Napoleon Wilson

4:38 PM

Is the conclusion of this discussion and these questions that people can now ask about caring for their record collections (and straightening jumbled VHS tapes, while we're at it)?

@NapoleonWilson I don't know. Ask a question and find out.

Or since no one has actually asked such a question, stop worrying about problems that don't exist.

Napoleon Wilson

Urgh, I'd rather not to. I was seeing if there's some sane topic consideration beyond just "make Everything.SE and see how it narrows down after 3 years".

If you're worried about me asking such a question, I don't own a record collection.

@NapoleonWilson you've already made this point several times.

Napoleon Wilson

Sure. Probably won't stop making it, though. ;-)

@NapoleonWilson then you are no longer participating productively. We've all read the chat messages where you made this point.

Napoleon Wilson

4:45 PM

Hmm, true maybe. But I think it's a point worth to be made over and over again. If it starts to sound like a broken record, I'm sure a literature expert can help me fix it.

@NapoleonWilson please stop it.

Napoleon Wilson

I'll try to.

5:20 PM

1

Q: In Peter and the Wolf, why is Peter represented by a String quartet?

Sergei Prokofiev's Peter and the Wolf is a combination of a children's story and a musical composition. A narrator narrates the story while an orchestra plays the corresponding music. According to the English translation of the performance instructions: Each character of this tale is represe...

music peter-and-the-wolf sergei-prokofiev

^ I wonder if this might get a better answer on some other site.

I mean, regardless if it's on-topic here.

@Gallifreyan Yo.

Been a little busy recently, with the start of a new semester, but I'm still reading :)

@b_jonas we wont know until we try it out

@Gallifreyan I'm actually considering deleting the one that's not deleted.

I had a couple of questions to ask about Worlds' End, actually. Started writing one, but not sure when I'll have time to finish it properly.

@b_jonas it's possible, but I don't want to close a question on a possibility

5:26 PM

I also had a question about Oliver Sacks, but I'm not sure if I'll ask it in the end. The answer came to me as an epiphany, and I'm no longer sure if the question is worth asking, even as a Q/A set.

...that name sounds familiar. Psychology guy? Or am I mixed up?

Yes.

Unrelatedly, this YouTube channel has some good Tolkien songs, with words directly from the books.

He writes about his patients and their psychological/neurological issues in a way that is accessible to laymen. He's widely regarded as one of the best medical writers ever. His powers of observation, description, and just simple humanity are just amazing.

@Shokhet Yeah. I have some of his books ;)

5:33 PM

@Mithrandir The first Sacks book that I read I actually found in a used book sale on רחוב יפו in Jerusalem :)

@Randal'Thor reworded

0

Q: Are questions about music on-topic (part 2)?

This site has recently received four questions about music that go beyond looking looking at the lyrics, and ask about the sound music makes: Is Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall" supposed to be uplifting or mournful? What changes when you adapt Dickinson's "I'm Nobody" to an acoustic roc...

discussion scope

That was The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. Right now, I'm in the middle of Musicophilia.

@Hamlet I'm not saying it has to be closed just because it gets a better answer on another site. We have Harry Potter and other Sci Fi questions that would get better answer on Sci Fi SE, but that's no reason not to keep them.

@b_jonas oh, OK.

I was actually thinking about you when I read parts of Musicophilia, @Mithrandir, because he talks briefly about what earworms are, and how they come about.

The first section discusses, primarily, musical hallucinations. He mentions earworms, and clarifies how they're different from those hallucinations.

5:36 PM

Heh, I guess my earworms made an impression :P

Yep.

And that's humn's fault.

@Hamlet But after looking at your further questions, I figure you deliberately tried to post multiple music questions of different kinds to probe this site. I don't usually do that, I just ask all my questions straight on the forum that seems the most useful to me.

There was a particular paragraph or two that I wanted to excerpt, and post for you here. I was reading it on Shabbos, however, and now I'm not sure where that part went.

@b_jonas "I just ask all my questions straight on the forum that seems the most useful to me." that's what I'm doing here :)

5:38 PM

@Mithrandir Yep. Haven't seen him in here in a while (not that I've really been in here in a while, myself). It appears that he is not pingable by mortal users.

(I'm AFK now - supper! :D)

I genuinely believe that, compared to the other existing sites, this site is where the questions are most likely to be successful.

@Mithrandir בתיאבון! :)

@Hamlet I have asked two questions on Music Fans SE, it seemed useful.

@Shokhet he pops in and out and there, and I'll see him in The Sphinx's Lair (Puzzling.SE chatroom)

5:39 PM

Of course, I am also trying to test this site's scope boundaries. But I can do two things at the same time.

@b_jonas it didn't seem useful to me :)

@Mithrandir I see. Kinda like what I've been doing in this room for the last little while, huh? :)

Although I'm no longer sure if I should ask any questions about Stanisław Lem's sci-fi on Sci Fi SE or here.

@b_jonas I should think it would depend on the question. Questions about the sci-fi aspects feel more SFF-y, whereas literary discussions will probably get better answers here. (That second category is, I think, on topic at SFF. But I think you'll get better lit crit answers here.)

I'm not sure whether the first category is on topic here...I think they are, but certain parties like to discourage those types of questions here.

@Shokhet Hmm. So if I want to ask about the apparently contradictory level of space flight technology throughout the pilot Pirx stories, then ask on Sci Fi SE?

(Take this all with a grain of salt, as I have not read anything by Lem.)

@b_jonas I think so. Again, it's probably on topic on both sites, but I think you may get better answers to that question on SFF.

5:46 PM

As in, how come one of the ten stories seems to take place on an exoplanet, while in most of the others it seems like everything is in the solar system because they don't have FTL travel, and how the very first story seems impossible without some crazy innertial drive that they seem unlikely to have given the level of technology in the stories.

Aha. Yeah, I'd say SFF are probably your best bet.

You might get some answers you'd like here, also, but you run the risk of @Hamlet or someone else telling you that there's something symbolic going on with that, or something :p

@Shokhet cosin

@Shokhet Is that a problem? I mean, if there was really something symbolic.

@b_jonas IDK.

@Hamlet ....?

5:52 PM

Some people only want an "in-universe" explanation

@b_jonas So I suppose it also depends on what kind of answer you're looking for :) ...if that's what you want, then for sure, ask here.

Or whatever the word for it is.

@Hamlet "in-universe" is a good word for it. That, and "out-of-universe" are probably terms I should have used in my initial explanation.

@Shokhet Yay!

@Gallifreyan 😁

Napoleon Wilson

6:04 PM

@Shokhet They also love the word "canon", though, but that might be a more narrow term.

Right.

Oh by the way, I still couldn't look at Witcher, but I swear I tried. OSzK has one accessible library copy and FSzEK KK has three borrowable copies, but in both places I can access them only after a reservation, which I'll probably have to do now. I also looked in book stores, but they only have paperbacks.

6:28 PM

if no one is going to close this i would like to give it a bounty

-1

Q: Is Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall" supposed to be uplifting or mournful?

I've become interested in Bob Dylan's song "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall", which I find perplexing and hard to make sense of. Looking at the lyrics, it seems that there is quite a bit of ambiguity as to how the song should be interpreted. Here's the first verse: Oh, where have you been, my blue...

bob-dylan music

i'd recommend leaving it a bit

6:50 PM

Dropping in very briefly (haven't got time to take part properly in the music discussion) ...

I don't understand why people like @Napoleon are talking as if they have some kind of vested interest in not allowing Lit to take questions about films. There's been overlap between SE sites since the beginning of time, and there's already overlap between M&TV and at least one other site.

Sure, you care about the health of your main site - I get that. But why would it harm M&TV to allow questions about films on other sites? Unless they're getting shit answers on your site and good ones here, I'd assume that M&TV's existing userbase will stay there, and that people with questions about a movie will continue being more likely to visit the site called Movies than the site called Literature. What's the issue?

(I mention this because it seems to be the underlying reason behind some people's opposition to allowing music questions here - the argument being that it's a slippery slope, "if we allow music questions, then we'll be allowing film questions next", with the hidden minor premise that the latter is bad.)

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Yes, but that's not what was sold to me on Area51.

@Randal'Thor I know it's probably not a practical concern, doesn't stop me from worrying about it. And as said, it does feel like cherry picking. I'm pretty sure you don't want the trivia and ID bullshit from films. But as said, this site was advertized as Literature, not LiteraryAnalysis.SE.

@NapoleonWilson OK, but why's it so important for a site to stick to its Area 51 image? Science Fiction & Fantasy was just "Science Fiction" on Area 51; Movies & TV was just "Movies"; ... the list goes on.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor And even disregarding other sites it still is a slippery slope, as my ridiculous record collection example was supposed to show.

@Randal'Thor Sure point. I just feel...cheated, I guess. ;-)

@Hamlet ... I don't think sarcasm really helps here.

@Randal'Thor yeah, I suppose you're right. I apologize.

Napoleon Wilson

6:56 PM

@Randal'Thor I won't hide my personal motivation. But even disregarding that I still don't think the approach of allowing everything and then seeing how the site turned out a year later is a sane approach.

@NapoleonWilson Well, that I can maybe agree with. It's the personal motivation that I'm struggling to understand.

@Randal'Thor you forgot programmers and puzzling.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor And you're allowed to. I don't say it's the most selfless of approaches.

@Randal'Thor I mean, the personal motivation is about something that has nothing to do with our site.

I've got no problem with questions about sci-fi and fantasy books being on-topic here - far from it. (Admittedly that's a far clearer-cut case.)

Napoleon Wilson

6:59 PM

But I'm also not that stupid. It wouldn't be a problem for me if those questions being on-topic wouldn't be a stretch to begin with (or if I'd seen that coming). That's what I'm struggling with.

But I will say that I've been thinking, and if you're participating in this conversation for any reason other than "I want Literature to succeed", then I'm not sure why this is a productive conversation to have.

Napoleon Wilson

Disregarding my own site, I'm also concerned about StackExchange's consistency. I don't want to think about looking for music questions here or on Music Fans, when it seems quite made up (to me) for it to even make sense here to begin with. Of course the last point is the thing people disagree about.

I would much rather spend my time talking to people who actually use the site and want it to succeed.

@Hamlet Well, community members will use their votes on meta for a whole variety of reasons, not necessarily because they want the site to succeed. Considering and addressing those reasons might be a good idea if you want a useful consensus.

Napoleon Wilson

@Hamlet Disregarding parts of my motivation, I still think the points I make are not without reason. If you think that, though, I'm also fine with going back to transcript-starring. It's not like I make myself illusions of achieving anything in this regard.

7:05 PM

@NapoleonWilson Well, that's precisely why it shouldn't be much of a problem in terms of Lit 'stealing' traffic from other sites. If Random New User has a question about music, and wonders which SE site to ask it on, they're much more likely to go for Music Fans than Literature, purely from the name - unless they already happen to know Lit's scope well, and those people account for a tiny proportion of all traffic.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Which is true.

@NapoleonWilson I know another thing you could do, instead of or as well as either of those options: post your arguments on meta, so they can be voted on :-)

Chat discussions are all well and good, and might convince people of this or that argument, but no matter how good your points are, they won't become policy if they're only expressed in chat.

Napoleon Wilson

I...might not have clarified that it isn't my sole motivation to make Literature fail or rob it of otherwise perfectly on-topic questions (which I repeat, I just don't think they are, disregarding where they could be on-topic). I see that openness about parts of why I consider that a problem might have not been the best idea and shed a less constructive light on the whole thing than I intended.

@Randal'Thor I was thinking about posting something on meta, but the question also changed quite a bit since I last checked, I think.

@Randal'Thor Oh, as said, I don't make myself any illusions they could. I'm basically just a random moron ranting in chat and I don't pretend not to be. ;-)

Even if your points get downvoted to hell, though, it'd still be nice to have a record on meta that some portion of the community feels that way.

And you never know. Every time I've posted on SFF meta recently expecting to be downvoted to hell, I've ended up being the highest-voted answer.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor It's shoehorning the topics into the site when that's not actually a sensible topic extension that's the core of the problem. But I understand that other people don't consider it shoehorning to begin with, which of course makes everything else moot.

@Randal'Thor Neither do I presume to speak for anyone else but me. And with the (understandable) backlash from chat, I...don't really feel like it. I'm fine with being blamed for inactivity afterwards, I'll just have to live with that, which contrary to the impression I might have given, I'm able to. ;-)

7:16 PM

> Being in a minority, even in a minority of one, [does] not make you mad.

Even one person is still a portion of the community ;-)

> I've got me a diamond collection! And before you ask, one counts as a collection.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Point being, people aren't entirely off when accusing me of not participating enough on Literature to have a beyond doubt well-intended and valid opinion. So I don't really deem myself worth enough as a community member to begin with to utter an opinion on meta. So for all we know, it's rather zero persons, and zero is only a valid number for you mathematicians. ;-)

Anyway, fair enough. I hope you can all work this out sensibly and amicably, whether through meta or chat or wherever. But I'm off.

*waves*

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor And back then I also made huge drama when the latter massively changed its scope from the Area51 proposal, which I didn't at all agree with back then, for pretty much similar reasons of a perceived structural integrity of SE it was IMHO violating. But it happened and people, including me, learned to deal with it.

2 hours later…

Napoleon Wilson

9:24 PM

I want to apologize for some of the messages I made in the recent discussion. I don't like to leave a bad impression in chat and it makes me feel as uncomfortable as everyone else. I do stand by the points I made, but I understand that I didn't choose the best way to make them and I made some mistakes in my argumentation that are very hard to come back from and that likely permanently tainted the points I was trying to make...

...I probably also gave the impression of being much more emotionally invested than I am. I do wish this site the thriving it deserves and the community to find a scope they are content with and good luck on the path thereto. I also don't want my behaviour to fall back on anyone else but me.

9:50 PM

@NapoleonWilson Can't track that specific one down right away, but here's a similar "lets change our mainsite behavior in order to gather more data about a particular thing and see if our previous behavior is warranted" meta.

@NapoleonWilson thank you. For what it's worth, you were making points that were shared by other people on the site.

@BESW any chance of sharing this insight as a meta answer, where it easily viewed and voted on :)

While this chat conversation was actually very helpful initially, I think we're reached the point where we're outgrown chat as a useful discussion platform for this issue.

@BESW of course, the meta I had proposed was originally a "let's give these questions a chance", but on feedback I changed it.

2

Q: Are questions about music on-topic (part 2)?

This site has recently received four questions about music that go beyond looking looking at the lyrics, and ask about the sound music makes: Is Bob Dylan's "A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall" supposed to be uplifting or mournful? What changes when you adapt Dickinson's "I'm Nobody" to an acoustic roc...

discussion scope

I'm not entirely sure that was the right decision, but I deferred to their judgement on the issue.

Oh, and I asked a Peter and the Wolf question as well as a Dylan question, so thank you for that. (The examples you and doppelgreener gave were the main productive part of the conversation).

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