@Namaskaram I am getting lot of apashruthis .Or else everyone is feeling the same?..like.. may because as December started ...? :)

@Namaskaram @Sadhana One quick question before addressing the Western "tonic": within a song, can there be sung pitches both above and below shadaj? (Or, for example, is shadaj defined as the lowest available pitch?)

@Mitra during your practice, you mean? It’s possible, the change in weather can have such an effect, initially.

@Aaron definitely a song can involve notes that go into the lower and higher octaves. (Some rare exceptions would be if the structure of the raga itself restricts its range to, say, just the middle octave.)

@Aaron No, the Shadaj is not the lowest available pitch. Usually, if you have a vocal range going from F3 to D5, then you could use A#3 as your Shadaj. That way, you can sing a song that goes halfway into the lower octave, and halfway into the upper octave in addition to the middle octave.

@Namaskaram @Sadhana Very good. I feel confident we're on the right track. So, to sum up, shadaj is the "do" of a raga, and its specific pitch is determined according to the singer's vocal range. So far, so good, yes?

Just as an example, in the above video, she singer starts from C#, but listening to the melody, to me, D is the "do," because that's where the song seems to resolve, but I don't know if you would consider D to be the tonic in Western music.

And I could transpose the melody to a different key, sing it at a higher or lower pitch, but that would not make any difference to the Indian notation. The absolute pitch of "Sa" is of no concern. But once you have your Sa, the pitches of the other notes are determined based on the Sa.

@Sadhana You're getting a bit ahead of me with this. If it's okay, let's stay with Indian music for a moment longer. I'm just looking to confirm that within the context of a raga, shadaj is the "do" of that raga. Is that correct?

@Aaron Yes. I have to step out for a bit. Will respond to more questions later.

@Aaron Indeed. :)

@Sadhana @Namaskaram Thinking back to the main-site question about determining shadaj when "it's not there". I think the OP was trying to ask: "Suppose I'm listening to a Hindustani song. How can I determine which pitch is Sa? I've looked at some scores and see that Sa is not always a prominent pitch. So if I'm only listening, and don't have the benefit of written notation, how can I find Sa?" Does that seem like a reasonable interpretation?

By the way, I'm following the OP's spelling "s-h-a-d-a-j", but I notice elsewhere on the web, it's "s-h-a-d-j-a". How should it be spelled?

@Aaron The variations come from the many languages in which it is referred to: shadaj, shadja, shadjam, these are all valid.

@Aaron I am typing up a somewhat detailed response, please hold on :)

@Aaron It’s definitely a reasonable question, but I think it’s a far too liberal interpretation of the question. :) for one, the OP explicitly says that they are studying from the notations of some songs, so it is not clear why the difficulty is arising in the first place.

For your question, one answer could be: listen to the drone/tanpura that is playing in the background of the Hindusthani song you are listening to, that will provide the necessary information about the pitch of the shadaj.

But what if there is no tanpura playing in the background, and no notation to help us out? Even in this case, knowing the raga, we can figure out which phrases in the song correspond to which allowed sequences of notes, and thereby determine the shadaj.

But what if the raga is unknown? Even then, studying the key phrases and movements in the song will determine the raga being used, and once again the shadaj can be identified.

Can there be ambiguity in this process? Yes, as there is ambiguity in all subjective sciences: but there are further ways to refine this process, and the accuracy will depend on the expertise of the person listening, of course.

(These are also, more or less, the points mentioned in NReilingh’s answer to this question, which is why I commented there that it was the only satisfactory answer in the thread.)

@Aaron I would like to ask one thing regarding the tonic in Western music. Is the tonic (usually) the point to which the music returns as a home? Because if so, that makes the shadaj not quite the analogue of tonic in Indian classical music.

Because, the shadaj provides a base for the music “as a whole”, whereas each raga will have more than one note around which the music can be centered in various ways, called vadi, samvadi, graha, nyasa, etc. depending on the classification. (@Sadhana briefly mentions these aspects in music.stackexchange.com/a/118674.)

@Namaskaram We are in complete agreement. I think the OP mentioning scores is misleading. I believe the intention was only to say that through studying scores, OP made the discovery that Sa may not be prominently used. So the "real" question is how to determine Sa by ear, knowing it might not be used much in the song. Now that you and @Sadhana have confirmed my own understanding, I completely agree that NReihling's answer is the best of those present.

Reading your question about the tonic now....

@Namaskaram Yes, this is exactly right. I'm in the process right now of writing a Q&A discussing exactly these differences. Once it's ready, I'll post a link; your feedback would be very much appreciated.

@Aaron That sounds great! I’ll do my best, but I am slightly averse to posting on main, so even if an answer is forthcoming from my side it may be quite delayed. I’ll happily let @Sadhana pip me in answering that question. I’m confident they can write with clarity on this topic, moreso than me. :)

But do post a link here when your post is ready, I look forward to reading it!

And, I don’t think I’ve mentioned it yet: thank you for this stimulating discussion, it was very enjoyable :)

@Namaskaram Likewise. It's been very stimulating. I appreciate your willingness to engage and look forward to the next time.

@Namaskaram @Sadhana I've posted a question and an answer regarding Sa vs. Do vs. "The tonic". If you have some time, I would appreciate your thoughts regarding its accuracy and clarity (or lack thereof). What is the relationship between Sa in Indian classical music and Do (or "the tonic") in Western classical music?.

@Aaron Thanks for posting! I've suggested an edit to your answer, and posted a few comments... If the edit is too liberal, feel free to reject/improve it instead of accepting it.

A very general comment: I'm wondering whether the site will benefit more from questions that do not directly ask for comparisons between Western music and other systems of music. While the posted question gives the necessary context (OP's background being in Western music, discussing the possible equivalence between Do and Sa, etc.), this also necessarily restricts it to those posters who have sufficient expertise in both systems, in order to provide a truly authoritative answer.

Wow, lots of new developments while I've been away. Sounds like fun. My simple answer a while ago would have been that Sa = Do = the tonic (although the concept of a "key" is somewhat different in Western music), but now I'm a bit confused. I'll do some research before I write an answer, but I'm sure others will weigh in with good answers in the mean time.

Another point I would like to mention is that interpreting concepts in one musical system through the ideas of another system may not (cannot?) lead to a complete understanding of the original concept. I have seen many comments even on this site about what a raga is which are, at best, just approximations, and, at worst, blatantly incorrect.

To me, at least, the sentence:

> In this way, the tonal center in an Indian classical piece is closer to the "reciting pitch" in pre-tonal Western modal chant. (And Sa is different from the "final".)

is not useful.

Perhaps I'm being nitpicky, in which case I apologize. But it seems to suggest to me that to understand the role of "Sa", one must understand "reciting pitch" in pre-tonal Western modal chants, and then use the latter understanding to inform the former.

Naturally this is not so. So, maybe the concluding remark can be tempered appropriately, I don't know.

I have a feeling we may have misled you, @Aaron. While musical phrases in a raga can land or rest on several of the notes in the scale, the Shadaj (Sa) most definitely is the most important note in every raga, and the raga does come to a final rest on Sa.

The difference, in my opinion lies not between the concepts of Sa vs. Do. vs. tonic, but between Sa and the "key" of a piece of music. In the Western context, I've often heard it said that a song is in the key of A or D or whatever. But that is something that wouldn't come up in an Indian context. All ragas begin with Sa. Sa could be C or D or G or whatever you want it to be. It's the relative pitches of other notes to Sa that we are concerned about.

@Sadhana This is how I've always held the concept in my head, too. Well put! I've been vaguely feeling that "tonic" is not the right concept to be compared, and you've put my feeling into words very clearly.

I'm glad! :D It can be quite confusing discussing one genre of music in terms of another.

@Namaskaram @Sadhana Thanks for your comments. For the time being, I've deleted both question and answer so they can be better developed, especially the answer.

@Aaron Ah, I see. Sure, no problem.

Regarding "Sa as tonic" — so Sa is always ending pitch in a song? (In that case, the question that launched this discussion really makes no sense. Just listen to the last pitch, and Sa is determined.)

@Aaron Perhaps not necessarily in a song, but any alaap of a raga will conclude by resting on the shadja.

@Namaskaram I'll work on the reference to Western chant. In Gregorian chant, there were concepts of "final" and "reciting tone". The final was just that — the pitch on which the chant ended. The reciting tone was the most sung pitch within the chant — the pitch on which the hymn was "recited".

@Aaron I see... I'll search for these terms on YouTube and see if I can correlate what I'm hearing with what you've written. That might help me.

@Namaskaram But even in a song, as the pallavi (the first stanza, and also the refrain) is brought to a close, the performer will perform some extemporaneous additions at the end to bring the music to rest on Sa, or if not Sa then at Pa (or Ma if the raga misses Pa).

@Namaskaram Before I go do more reading on these ideas, one quick (I think) question: does the pallavi contain the alaap, or does an alaap contain the pallavi?

@Aaron A song or a specific piece of music is very different from a raga. A song can begin or end on any note that the composer chooses to begin or end it on. But Sa is the starting and ending point of a raga's scale. It defines the raga.

I concur with @Sadhana. Also, alap is a type of extemporaneous music, and distinct from music that is … (what’s the word, on the tip of my tongue…) fixed? Composed? I’m suddenly missing the technical term, kalpita sangita vs. … ?

Ah, yes

Manodharma sangita vs. kalpita sangita

Extemporaneous music vs. composed music

Alap is one of the main forms of extemporaneous music in Indian classical music. And, a composition has certain sub-parts, usually called the pallavi, anupallavi, and charanam in South Indian music. Other sub-divisions are also possible, but the pallavi is usually the portion the song returns to, like a refrain.

In a concert (at least for the main item), the performer first develops the raga expansively through an alap, and then follows that up with a composition and further extemporaneous musical output.

I have a deadline and need to leave the chatroom for now, but before I go, I thought I'd point out that ICM has two distinct traditions. Carnatic (south Indian) and Hindustani (north Indian). The terms and concepts are similar but slightly different in the two traditions. So, if you're going to do any reading, my suggestion is to pick one and focus on it to begin with. @Namaskaram is from a Carnatic background, right? My background is Hindustani, but I won't confuse you with it right now.

Yes, my background is in Carnatic music :)

@Namaskaram Oh , then may be due to that :)