Sarvalaghu

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Sadhana

03:00

@Namaskaram Would love to read it too. Do drop me a message in the chatroom when you do so I don't miss it.

@Namaskaram Will use it sparingly then! :)

4 hours later…

Namaskaram

06:40

@Sadhana Definitely!

1 hour later…

Namaskaram

07:50

Hello @Aaron

Q: Finding the Shadaj (tonic) in Hindustani Sangeet (North Indian Classical Music)

This question pertains to non-Western music and hence a bit of explanation before a question is stated. I listen to and play Hindustani Sangeet (i.e., North Indian Classical Music) which does not use chords. A singer is accompanied by tabla (two drums used for percussion but also tuned to the sin...

"I have analysed notations of some study songs and observed that the tonic is hardly there." It would help to know how exactly these study songs are being notated. In Indian classical music, the notation for a song is anyway expressed using the notes Sa-Ri-Ga-Ma-Pa-Dha-Ni (analogous to Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti). So, right off the bat there can be no question of a hidden tonic in a song analyzed from its notation, making this question entirely unclear. I presume the large number of upvotes are due to its age? — Namaskaram Nov 2 at 15:18

@Aaron Unfortunately, this question is unclear IMO (see my above comment). Nreilingh's answer below covers general aspects of how the tonic is identified in Indian classical music. But, "How to identify the tonic when it is not there?" is not a question that makes sense. — Namaskaram 2 hours ago

@Namaskaram As I understand the question, it's stating that the shadaj can be deemphasized or avoided in a way that makes it difficult to identify which pitch serves that purpose. Thus, in such cases, how can one go about identifying the shadaj. A parallel exists in Western classical music; during the 1900s, composers would attempt to avoid the tonic pitch in a composition, creating tonal ambiguity in otherwise perfectly cohesive music. However, the techniques for determining the tonic in such a Western composition would not apply in the Hindustani context as I understand it. — Aaron 1 hour ago

@Aaron I'm sorry, but I'll have to continue to disagree. It makes no sense that the OP is looking at the notation of a song in Hindustani music but is unable to "identify the tonic". The information regarding the tonic is already present in the notation, that is how Hindustani music is notated in the first place. It's like saying I'm reading an English text but I cannot identify the alphabets. — Namaskaram 1 hour ago

@Namaskaram I more than allow the misunderstanding is mine. Maybe you can help me with this sentence: "The tonic (which is called Shadaj, similar to C of a scale) of a singer is fixed by his/her choice in any note of an octave but such that he/she gets a two-octave voice range." I take that to mean that the "tonic" in Hindustani music is determined according to each individual singer's vocal range; thus, it might or might not actually occur in a particular piece of music. Am I (or the OP) misunderstanding shadaj? — Aaron 57 mins ago

"I take that to mean that the 'tonic' in Hindustani music is determined according to each individual singer's vocal range; thus, it might or might not actually occur in a particular piece of music." Ah, I see where you're coming from now @Aaron. Yes, the conclusion in the quote is a mistake: every singer fixes a choice of tonic according to their comfort, and every composition is created with a tonic, but the tonic is "relative". A piece of music in Indian classical music is not composed with a fixed pitch as the tonic, neither does the tonic move in a composition. — Namaskaram 9 mins ago

I think part of the difficulty I'm facing in this conversation is because my knowledge of Western classical music theory is limited to one introductory course I took on Coursera, and whatever I've picked up by myself from here and there.

So, I could very well be misusing the terms "relative pitch" and "absolute pitch" etc. as they are understood technically in Western classical music theory.

Looking back at my messages, my words appear to have an aggressive tone, which I did not intend. I apologize for the same.

Aaron

08:16

@Namaskaram Thanks for getting back to me, and just know that I found your tone in no way aggressive. Your recent post is very helpful. Based on our exchange as well as the various comments and answers to the original question, there's clearly been some confusion surrounding the original question, but I think we're getting somewhere with it. Let me see if I can lay out my thoughts in a clear way.

Based on your post, here's my current understanding of shadaj. Suppose you sing a particular song. You select shadaj such that the lowest and highest pitches required by the song will be within the range of notes you can sing.

After hearing you sing, I decide I'd like to learn the same song and exactly copy the way you sing it. However, my voice is higher or lower than yours, so I select a shadaj suitable to my voice, and then shift every pitch you sing by the same amount.

Thus the musical distance from one pitch to the next is equivalent in our two performances, even though the exact pitches themselves are different.

Please let me know if this is an accurate portrayal of shadaj. If it is, I'll post more about how Western music understands "the tonic" and then get to where I think the original question creates confusion. If no, I'd appreciate your continued help in understanding shadaj.

(Just know, I need to log out, but I'll be able to read and respond to you within the next few days.)

3 hours later…

Sadhana

11:31

@Namaskaram @Aaron - I agree, it's an extremely confusing question. If the notation of the song is in the Indian style (which uses the Indian equivalent of do re mi fa so la ti do), you can always tell where "do" is based on the other syllables even if the song itself de-emphasizes "do." The only explanation I can think of is that perhaps OP is looking at staff notation of an Indian song? But he/she does not specify.

2 hours later…

Namaskaram

13:46

You've summarized it accurately, @Aaron. Whenever you get time, please do post about the notion of "tonic" in Western music, I look forward to it :)

4 hours later…