Discussion on answer by Azor Ahai: Are 16 schools too many for a professor to provide recommendation letters to?

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18:55

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A: Are 16 schools too many for a professor to provide recommendation letters to?

As other people have mentioned, the problem with 16 schools is that a professor cannot, either truthfully or operationally provide customized letters to 16 different schools. By "customization" I mean more than changing the name of the school and program. Good letters of rec use professor's famil...

Anonymous Physicist

Customization only takes 1-2 extra minutes. Faculty should be willing to do more than four. But sixteen wastes the student's time.

Boaty Mcboatface

Why would 16 be too much? Basic strategy dictates the more the merrier. At the very least, you can apply more reach/dream schools. If there is something "wasted" that would be money. I personally would apply to 30-40 places easily if I could afford it.

Anonymous Physicist

@BoatyMcboatface There usually aren't 30-40 "reach" schools out there to apply to.

corsiKa

@BoatyMcboatface The cost of applying to 30-40 schools is more than a year's tuition at a darned good institution. If you have a list of even 10 institutions you're applying to, and you're thinking you might not even make it to the tenth one on your list, well that should be the top of your list, not the bottom...

terdon

@corsiKa what kind of schools charge money for applying? I've never heard of such a thing. Is it common in your country/field?

Boaty Mcboatface

18:55

@corsiKa that is not how things work. You are assuming there is an error free, consistent system in admissions. There in fact is huge amounts of what I consider error. For example, some schools do cut offs based on GRE points without telling you what those limits are. Some don't cut off at all. You can very well be a good candidate but it is meaningless if no one will read your application.

@AnonymousPhysicist who said anything about 30-40 "reach" schools. I am saying I would make 30-40 applications.

@terdon American schools charge huge amounts of money for applications. Fees usually rise if you are an international candidate. They also usually require 2 (or 3 for intenational students) standardized test scores which need to be reported officially and it is subject to a cost. For example, any University of California school has 140 USD application fee. They require 2 Gre results which is 27 USD to report and a toefl score (for internationals only ) which is 20 USD to report. This is in mathematics. So an application can cost up to 180 USD. I would approximate an avarage cost at 130 USD.

terdon

@BoatyMcboatface wow, just wow. I did my undergraduate work in the UK, PhD in Spain and post doc in France and I never even heard of anyone charging for applying. Sheesh.

Džuris

@AnonymousPhysicist I think one needs more than 1-2 minutes to even understand what is the application for and what customization would be appropriate for that one.

Boaty Mcboatface

@terdon the sad part is schools could do many things to improve this process. They can accept unofficial test results until an offer is made. They can expilictly mention their score based cut offs (if they exercise any, they usually do). They just won't. There are even some policies that feel downright hostile towards international applicants. Also, I haven't mentioned the brute cost of taking the 3 standardized tests. Depending on the region they cost around 500 USD to take each once.

Oscar Bravo

@terdon Evidently, US "schools" have hit on the idea on monetizing the processing of applications. In principle, it could be justified given that there is a real cost to processing applications, many of which will not be taken up, even if offered (the OP is going to turn down 15 of his).

Azor Ahai

@Anonymous By "customization" I mean more than changing the name of the school and program, I mean using their domain knowledge to speak to the applicants specific strengths with regard to the program, or referencing destination professor's previous students and how they compare. That takes more than 1-2 minutes.

@boaty Simply put, at least in my field, you are expected to have a pretty specific idea for what you area of your field you want to study. There simply isn't likely to be 16 schools that you can write a good SoP for. I struggled with even my last two choices out of 8.

@oscar I'm not sure why you put "schools" in quotes, but application fees are typical in the US to cut down on the amount of useless applications. From what I've heard, countries without fees often have highly centralized admissions systems where an applicant can only choose a small number of schools to apply for anyway, which cuts down in that problem.

Rakurai

18:55

@terdon - I am usually pretty cynical about college fees and fleecing the students (parents) in ways that makes it more difficult for the underprivileged to attend, but in this particular area requiring a nontrivial application fee probably greatly increases the average quality of applications as well as the rate of offer acceptance. It does cost the school time and money to review applications, and as the OP has reminded us, there are students who cast wide nets.

terdon

@Rakurai seeing as this is, to my knowledge, something exclusive to US institutions, I doubt that argument holds water. If it did, more institutions would do it. In any case, it is such a horrible and offensive idea, which leaves the vast majority of people who can't afford that kind of money out in the cold, that even if it made all the difference in the world, it would still be beyond the pale. And given the obscene amounts of money US institutes charge for tuition, they can certainly afford to pay some administrative staff.

Azor Ahai

@terdon Canada also charge application fees. (1) While I totally agree application fees can be very unfair to poorer people, they can often be waived. And I would point out, if you can't afford a few hundred dollars in application fees, you're going to struggle to move across continents to move to the US. (2) We are talking about PhD programs, for which people aren't "charged" tuition like undergraduate or master's programs.

terdon

@AzorAhai OK, that's one more country which is very close to the US culturally. Why would you be changing continents? Aren't these application fees applied to local students? I'm sure loads of graduates living in the US have trouble finding "a few hundred dollars". And I didn't know this was about PhD programs, I assumed it was general graduate courses, including Master's. But even in PhD programs it makes no difference at all. The idea of such a barrier to entry is offensive.

Azor Ahai

@terdon I thought you had mentioned international students, perhaps I got confused. You're right, I had assumed this was about PhD programs, but I suppose the OP didn't mention that. Nevertheless, this isn't really the place to go into detail about application fees (which, I want to point out, I'm not defending entirely, just explaining some of the justifications). You could ask a new question - it's probably already been answered.

Boaty Mcboatface

@AzorAhai, "application fees are typical in the US to cut down on the amount of useless applications". Cuts down the number based on wealth, not on quality. If you are poor or even middle class in a poorer country you will make significantly less applications. Sparing 1000 USD for an American middle class person and Balkan middle class person is vastly different. Plus you are talking about moving fees but cost of applying to 8 schools is around 1000 USD including standardized tests. I think it is near sufficient to move to US as long as your position will also offer financial support.

Michael

18:55

@corsiKa The cost of applying to 30-40 schools is more than a year's tuition at a darned good institution. Uh... even if you pay $200 in application costs per school for 40 schools, that's $8000, which is less than the average yearly tuition for a public, 4 year "in-state" college in the U.S. which is $9410. And that's basically the low end, price wise.

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Discussion on answer by Azor Ahai: Ar…