Whether ... or not

Mitch

Aug 15, 2016 15:00

OK about whether, do you say 'Whether x is the case' or do you say 'whether or not x is the case'?

terdon

@Randal'Thor Heh, nice one.

Mitch

or 'whether x is the case or not'

terdon

Depends on context, doesn't it? [that will depend on] whether X is the case But, whether X is the case or not [, I'm still going]

Martin AJ

Is this correct as a title of a banner? "Shavadoon printing and advertising"

Mitch

@MartinAJ Maybe capitalize? "Shavadoon Printing and Advertising"

terdon

Aug 15, 2016 15:02

@MartinAJ Could be, yes. If Shavadoon is the name of the business, I'd set it apart with a colon though. Like this: "Shavadoon: Printing and Advertising"

Hmm. Now that I look at it again, I'm not sure.

Nah, no colon.

Mitch

@terdon That's it, I just don't know. I remember someone saying years ago to remove the 'or not'. and they didn't explain why.

Lawrence

@Mitch If you had "regardless of whether ...", then "or not" is redundant. Likewise with @terdon's "depends on whether ...". Otherwise, "whether" just gives you the positive case, and "or not" is required for the negative.

Rand al'Thor

@terdon :no colon:

Martin AJ

Ah ok ... thank you guys

Mitch

@Lawrence ok. that makes sense.

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:06

> Regardless of whether it will be raining, I'm going to church on Sunday.

Mitch

Whether it will be raining or not, I'm not going to church.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Yes, the "or not" is latent in "regardless".

terdon

@Cerberus I think you meant irregardless. Tsk.

Mitch

so both cerb's and my statements are OK?

@terdon literally

Cerberus

I think or not is still possible in that example.

@terdon Silence!

Lawrence

Aug 15, 2016 15:08

@Cerberus But maybe "regardless of whether it rains ..."

terdon

I do find Cerb's example a bit odd. I would probably have said something like regardless of the rain, I'll be going

Mitch

argh! so complex!

Rand al'Thor

> I'm going to church on Sunday whether it rains or not.

Helmar

Regardless of the weather, I'm not going to church.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Possible, but redundant. :)

Rand al'Thor

Aug 15, 2016 15:08

@Lawrence Agreed.

terdon

Yeah, I think the regardless . . . verbING is what makes it strange.

Cerberus

@Lawrence Yes, I changed my tenses so many times...

Mitch

I think redundancy is the context problem altogether

Cerberus

@terdon I agree: the whole whether thing is redundant there.

Mitch

@terdon I think verbing weirds language

@Cerberus 'whether' is redundant?

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:09

I should have constructed a better example...

@Mitch When it can be replaced with a simpler construction.

Preposition + whether + clause is more complex than preposition + noun.

Kit Z. Fox

@Mitch meh.

And thanks.

Cerberus

Regardless of whether it rains → regardless of the rain.

Kit Z. Fox

regardless of rain.

Cerberus

Although the latter may suggest that it will be raining for sure?

Kit Z. Fox

yeah, that.

Rand al'Thor

Aug 15, 2016 15:12

Regardless of potential rain?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I think a normal human would say "Whether it's raining or not"

Or, if they're being funny, "Weather it's raining or not..."

Cerberus

@Lawrence I would say you need or not when the whether clause is elliptical, i.e. when the clause that it depends on is omitted.

Helmar

"Whether the weather allows it or not. ;)

Kit Z. Fox

regardless of the weather.

Rand al'Thor

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Is anyone in here a normal human?

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:13

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In which sentence?

Kit Z. Fox

or regardless of weather...hmm.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Example, please?

Helmar

What's a normal human?

Cerberus

I would say weather permitting...

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus Instead of "Regardless of rain" or whatever.

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:14

@Lawrence Whether it's raining or not, she's still going.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus That doesn't meant the same thing though

Rand al'Thor

@Cerberus But if the weather literally doesn't permit it, you aren't going. It's only if the weather hampers you that you can still go anyway.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 OK it works in that construction, when you have regardless, but not in all other situations.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Whether it's raining or not, I'm going shopping != Weather permitting, I'm going shopping

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No.

Helmar

Aug 15, 2016 15:15

Whether my weather gear allows me to weather the weather?

Rand al'Thor

"Weather permitting, I'm going to church" means you're only going if it doesn't rain.

Helmar

It all depends on the strength of the rain

Kit Z. Fox

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Rain or shine.

Lawrence

@Cerberus That doesn't have "regardless". The "or not" is needed if there's no regardless or similar.

Cerberus

@Randal'Thor I'm not one to out when it's raining. I'm made of sugar.

Rand al'Thor

Aug 15, 2016 15:15

@Cerberus Yes.

:-)

Cerberus

@Randal'Thor The dots were meant to indicate a twist!

@Lawrence Yes, and I was trying to generalise that by calling it elliptical.

It works just like whatever.

Mitch

Religious wars were started over less.

Rand al'Thor

> Whether weather permits or not, I'll go. I'll not let rain reign over me nor wind wind me up.

Mitch

Whether permitting

Cerberus

@Randal'Thor Maybe.

@Randal'Thor Ha!

Mitch

Aug 15, 2016 15:18

@Randal'Thor of if it be bees

OK, now that that has been totally muddied...

'lightening' is not and has not ever been a word, right?

unless you're trying to lighten the load

and that act is called 'lightening the load'

right?

Helmar

Actually odo lists it

A drop in the level of the womb during the last weeks of pregnancy as the head of the fetus engages in the pelvis.

Mitch

I'm doing my part to keep things on topic.

You can't say now that I'm always off topic.

Lawrence

@Cerberus But I don't think "whether it rains or not, I'm going to church" has any ellipsis, other than with "or (does) not (rain)". I don't think it's fair to say that "whether it rains, I'm going to church" is ungrammatical because of ellipsis when the ellipsis comes into play only when you add "or not". :)

Cerberus

Hehe.

Mitch

@Helmar Oh...that's perfectly fine, as an extension of lighten meaning to lessen the weight of

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:21

@Lawrence Oh, no, those are two different instances of ellipsis.

The or not is or may be elliptical.

But the ellipsis I was talking about is [regardless of] whether...

> [Regardless of] whether it rains or not, I'm going to church.

Helmar

@Mitch Well, the baby is still getting heavier until it's out

Mitch

lightening as a variant spelling of false/flok etymology of 'lightning' that bright flashy stuff in the sky during thunderstorms.

Cerberus

This seems elliptical to me ^.

Mitch

@Helmar OMG and they keep getting heavier

Helmar

@Mitch Very true :D

Rand al'Thor

Aug 15, 2016 15:22

@Mitch Or the mood.

Lawrence

@Cerberus But is it valid to say that "regardless of" was ellipsed in that case?

Rand al'Thor

Or the sky?

Mitch

@Randal'Thor ye, metaphorically.

Cerberus

@Lawrence I'm wondering whether it is valid, and I'm tending towards "yes" at the moment!

Lawrence

:)

Mitch

Aug 15, 2016 15:23

I feel like some people have made a case for 'lightening bug'.

I have negative tendentious words for those people.

Helmar

MW actually lists lightening with lightning

to give out flashes of lightning

Mitch

I'm still folowwing the 'whether' discussion. Just... I have no comment yet. when the decision is made to push the button to release the warheads, then I'll show up.

Helmar

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lightening

Mitch

@Helmar God damn them

Cerberus

@Lawrence What is it called when a subordinating word can be attached to any kind of main clause, like if or because, as opposed to e.g. relative and interrogative pronouns, which can only be used when the main clause meets certain conditions?

Helmar

Aug 15, 2016 15:25

@Mitch Indeed xD

Lawrence

@Cerberus The fact that the words aren't needed doesn't mean that the words are missing, right?

Cerberus

@Lawrence Indeed not. But I think they may be missing here.

I'm arguing that whether is of the latter category, like relative and interrogative pronouns.

Mitch

@Helmar They all seem to be right all up until this one: "2: to give out flashes of lightning"

Lawrence

@Cerberus Aye, there's the rub.

Cerberus

Perhaps whether is best considered an interrogative pronoun, according to my theory?

Helmar

Aug 15, 2016 15:26

@Mitch Yeah, that totally steps out of line

Mitch

that is the kind of devolution into swamp creatures we should all endeavor stamp out.

along with consistent metaphors.

Lawrence

@Cerberus @Mitch here come the warheads. :)

Mitch

sticking with one metaphor as bridge we won't count

Cerberus

@Lawrence I don't know that they are warheads.

Tchrist often uses the that construction.

Mitch

coordinate clause?

Lawrence

Aug 15, 2016 15:28

@Cerberus Sorry, noob here as far as Linguistics is concerned.

Mitch

adverbial clause?

Cerberus

Which to me sounds pleasantly old fashioned.

@Lawrence Oh OK.

Mitch

Where is schoolhouse rock to tell us the answer?

Oh. Youtube.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Still trying to parse this. What's the latter category - "missing", or "interrogative pronouns"?

Cerberus

@Mitch You forgot the diaeresis.

Mitch

Aug 15, 2016 15:29

@Cerberus This ain't the New YOrker

Or maybe it needs to be...

here's a pet peeve of mine...

The Dorgi.

a pet peeve pet.

Cerberus

@Lawrence The category of subordinating words that only work with certain kinds of main clauses. Unlike if and because, which work with any kind of main clause.

Mitch

wait..here's ther real peeve.

Cerberus

> *John lived in the forest, why the witch desired him.

> *The forest was thick, who liked to eat children.

Mitch

People who pronounce the abbreviation for a commonly held store (where the owners are also the primary customers in bulk) as though it were housing for poultry.

Lawrence

@Cerberus Can't whether be used everywhere if or because is used?

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:31

Why and who don't work in those sentences. ^

@Lawrence I would argue that it cannot. Except with ellipsis.

Mitch

The abbreviation for cooperative pronounced 'coop' rather than 'co op'

this is the only confusion in english orthography that would be helped by the diaeresis.

Cerberus

@Mitch We use diaeresis in the English room!

@Mitch Ow, that's silly.

I wouldn't.

Mitch

but anybody who knows anything should pronounce 'coop', as short for cooperative, in two syllables.

Cerberus

People might think noone were an old spelling variant of noon.

Mitch

@Cerberus that's why you spell that 'no one'

Cerberus

Aug 15, 2016 15:34

Or noöne.

Mitch

cut out the middle man by introducing a middle space

Lawrence

@Cerberus There may be instances that whether can be used when if can't - e.g. "Whether it rains depends on several things" - but for the reverse, nothing comes to mind immediately.

Cerberus

People don't like no one because it's everyone, someone.

Mitch

@Cerberus then we're reduced to communicating on macs.

@Cerberus Anyone?

Lawrence

... Oops, scrap that.

Mitch

Aug 15, 2016 15:35

Bueller?

Rand al'Thor

@Lawrence No. "If X is true, Y is also true" =/= "Whether X is true, Y is also true".

Mitch

Nobody.

Nothing

Cerberus

@Lawrence I would say it's also elliptical in that example.

Mitch

Never

Cerberus

@Mitch Whaaat?!

@Mitch Exactly.

Lawrence

Aug 15, 2016 15:37

@Cerberus Hmm, things that aren't there are really hard to spot. :)

Rand al'Thor

@Lawrence Sometimes "whether" should be used because "if" would be ambiguous. "They'll ask me if I eat" could mean either "they'll ask me whether I eat" or "if I eat, they'll ask me".

Lawrence

@Randal'Thor Yup, I got that. Brain's in a slow gear at the moment.

Cerberus

@Lawrence Quite!

Lawrence

@Cerberus I'd go along with an ellipsed "Regardless of ..." in that example. Ok, I can see where you're coming from now.

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