arrowfar's small questions 4

user116848

Jul 21, 2014 01:21

Is this sentence grammatical: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I liked and what I disliked" Or should I say it like this: "If I had more time I would tell you guys what I like and what I dislike"

tchrist

> Ad vesperum demorabitur fletus et ad matutinum laetitia.

@Arrowfar You want the second one.

Unless you mean something that is no longer true.

Those two sentences mean different things.

user116848

@tchrist Why not first one? It is a hyopthetical present situation.

tchrist

If it is present, then use present.

If you are talking about what you enjoyed at the film you saw last week, then use past.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar Both possible.

tchrist

Only use past for something that is no longer happening.

user116848

Jul 21, 2014 01:23

But we start hypothetical sentences with past like: "If I had..." So?

tchrist

@Arrowfar So what?

Cerberus

I do not agree with Tom.

Clauses that depend on the hypothetical can indeed be put in the past tense, usually.

tchrist

@Cerberus You don’t think those mean different things?

Cerberus

Not necessarily.

user116848

@tchrist So it is not necessary to use "past" in the following part of the sentence?

tchrist

Jul 21, 2014 01:24

If I’d more time, I’d tell you just exactly who I am.

Not who I was.

Cerberus

@Arrowfar It is not necessary, but it is possible, with the same meaning.

tchrist

That would be something else.

Cerberus

Not necessarily.

tchrist

I know what I mean.

Cerberus

It's optional. Harmony of tenses and such.

user116848

Jul 21, 2014 01:26

So both Cerbs and Tchrist opinions differ I guess. So anyone else here want to shed a light on this?

Cerberus

7

Q: "He didn't know where New Jersey was"

I know the past tense carries the past tense in every dependent clause, but referring specifically to places or to things that are eternal, like the Earth, seems a bit weird and therefore we sometimes (I believe incorrectly) say He didn't know that New Jersey was actually in the East Coast. ...

tchrist

English doesn’t have “sequence of tense” constraints like the Latin languages.

Yes, but you gave the wrong answer.

Unfortunately.

Because New Jersey is still there.

Cerberus

No, it is correct.

Both tenses are possible.

tchrist

New Jersey isn’t moving.

Cerberus

Most style guides agree, and so does actual usage.

tchrist

Jul 21, 2014 01:27

Prove usage.

Cerberus

google.com/…

Harmony of tenses allows the past tense in dependent clauses even for timeless facts or things that are true now.

It is the same in many languages.

The harmony of tenses in hypothetical sentences is a bit more complicated than in simple past sentences.

Some style guides recommend the past tense exclusively there.

But I think most will allow either, also depending on the situation.

user116848

I see.

Cerberus

Mitch

People just do it that way. Logic is being too literal.

Cerberus

People are often tempted by whatever comes up first in their mind to declare the alternative to be "not used" or "impossible". All of us are vulnerable to this.

Mitch

Jul 21, 2014 01:34

Language isn't literal. It's mostly metaphor.

Cerberus

True!

In effect, all of language is a metaphor.

Words standing for meaning.

The word tree is not itself a tree.

Nor a pipe.

On a more cheerful note:

> Manuel Noriega, the former dictator of Panama, is suing Call of Duty's video games publisher. The ex-military ruler is seeking lost profits and damages after a character based on him featured in Activision's 2012 title Black Ops II. The 80-year-old is currently serving a jail sentence in Panama for crimes committed during his time in power, including the murder of critics.

tchrist

There are many, many other cases of knew that followed by a present-tense clause.

Cerberus

I did not say the present tense was impossible. So that confirms what I said.

tchrist

> I knew that no one is immune to the vagaries of fate, and tragedy has struck.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mitch which word?

tchrist

Jul 21, 2014 01:42

You couldn’t put those in the past tense.

It wouldn’t sound right.

Cerberus

Sometimes, one sounds better than the other.

Generally, both are possible, even with timeless facts.

Mitch

Ok is the past participle of 'to mow' = 'mown'?

As in ' the grass was mown'?

tchrist

I have 124 cases of knew that followed by be in the present tense.

Cerberus

@tchrist The past tense would sound at least acceptable to me in that sentence.

@Mitch Yes?

Maybe mowed is also possible...

tchrist

> The Greeks knew that theater is a joyous, communal experience.

> Astronomers knew that Mars is too cold and too dry, with an atmosphere too thin, ...

Cerberus

Jul 21, 2014 01:45

What are you doing?

tchrist

> Everyone wanted to say that Cynthia Wiggins was the most beautiful, but secretly they knew that beauty is not just outwardly.

Cerberus

I saw both A and B are possible, and you give me instances of A.

tchrist

Providing examples where the past tense is not possible.

Cerberus

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Sometimes, one sounds better than the other.

2 mins ago, by Cerberus

Generally, both are possible, even with timeless facts.

tchrist

> But Jimmy knew that not everything is revealed at once.

Cerberus

Jul 21, 2014 01:46

3 mins ago, by Cerberus

@tchrist The past tense would sound at least acceptable to me in that sentence.

tchrist

You can’t use past there.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I made my first gif.

tchrist

> . . . there were people who asked, " Is that in America? " Others knew that Nigeria is in Africa, but they asked " Do you live in trees . . .

You can’t use was there.

> They knew that it is always wrong to clear shrubs and water plants away from the edge. . . .

Cerberus

@tchrist I agree that perhaps in this example the past would have a different meaning. But we'd need more context, the past may be possible without change of meaning.

@tchrist I would use was without batting an eye there.

tchrist

> We all knew that domestic violence isn't just about men abusing women.

> "It's the rust!" she lied, but we all knew that rust is fixable, or that hair of hers might be silver, not

> The strangest one we got was one parent who washed their cat because they knew that cat dander is a major cause of asthma, " said Dr. Michael Cabana.

> I thought everyone -- even city folk, of whom I am one -- knew that a steer is a male (castrated bull).

Cerberus

Jul 21, 2014 01:50

I would have no problem with the past tense in all of those examples.

tchrist

> Ninety-four percent knew cigarette smoking causes lung cancer, for example, and about three-quarters knew that some radioactivity is naturally produced, that continents are moving and that light travels

Cerberus

Try to change your perspective.

Mitch

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Any word that bothers you so much: " i have a problem saying a few words i want to remove them from vocabulary what are my alternatives ?"

5 hours ago, by tchrist

-1

Q: i have a problem saying a few words i want to remove them from vocabulary what are my alternatives ?

alternative suggestions for verb replacement to use in positive reenforcement I rather not imply that my client cant do something while for today she can not but a year from now she possibly could, i would rather not tell her don't do that, i just dislike no altogether. I am looking for alternat...

verbs

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mitch Oh. Yeah.

tchrist

@Cerberus You are biased by Romance sequence-of-tense laws.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Jul 21, 2014 01:51

!!mustache KitFox

Jarvis the Bot

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I give up.

Mitch

@tchrist They're saying that beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes right to the bone.

Cerberus

@tchrist Nope. It is the same in the Germanic languages, in this respect.

> Hij wist dat de aarde rond was.

> Er wußte, dass die Erde rund war.

tchrist

Now try it with present. Are those still grammatical?

Mitch

Jul 21, 2014 01:53

@tchrist all those examples work both ways for me, 'is' or 'was'

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes.

Mitch

@Cerberus what do the Slavs do? To Chinese it is all the same, they just use aspect.

tchrist

Then why do you tell pineapples not to use present tense?

Cerberus

@Mitch Hmm no idea about the Slavs! But I would expect them to do as we do...

@tchrist I did not.

See my doubly quoted "optional".

tchrist

What’s the past tense of wannabe?

wannabeen?

Mitch

Jul 21, 2014 01:58

This sounds like asking for advice on how to be polite? Direct orders sound too controlling so you're looking for indirect wording? "Don't put your hand in the fire!" -> "If you put you hand in the fire, it might hurt" -> "Sure, whatever" -> "Don't come crying to me when your hand gets burned to a stump!". Hm... back where we started. — Mitch 28 secs ago

@Cerberus I always think that things are universal, then it sometimes turns out otherwise.

@Cerberus Wait... what does Romance do? Are the tenses the same or different?

tchrist

Even a hasbeen really was something; he was never a wannabe.

Or if he was, he overcame that condition.

Cerberus

@tchrist Wannedtobe, also known as Winnetou.

@Mitch Yeah, we must always at least leave room for doubt!

tchrist

@Cerberus Toby Maguire?

Cerberus

@Mitch Ummm I think it's complicated.

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