Conversation started Nov 25, 2016 at 13:20.
Nov 25, 2016 13:20
What do they mean by disorder of molecules
@JohnRennie
Why for reversible process it reamins constant
Sorry , but I got the answer of first question.
@JohnRennie
rob
rob
@koolman Wouldn't you consider atoms on a crystal lattice to be "more orderly" than those same atoms zipping about in a gas?
Yeah @rob
rob
rob
@koolman So then the gas is "more disorderly" than the crystal, and the liquid is somewhere in the middle.
Then solid
rob
rob
It's a sloppy mapping of the mathematical concept of entropy into the messiness of language.
@koolman "crystal" == "solid"
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:33
@koolman, you can choose any specific configuration you like to be the "ordered" configuration however over time the system will move away from this configuration and thus become "disordered"
@rob but if disorder is more than how entropy is more
Mew
Mew
entropy is a measure of disorder
rob
rob
@koolman "entropy" ≈ "disorder"
Ohk
Does it depend on velocity of particle
Mew
Mew
well the faster the particles, the more quickly they will move away from their "ordered" state
Nov 25, 2016 13:36
Hence they have more entropy
Mew
Mew
yes
we usually look at Temperature rather than velocity
rob
rob
@koolman A fast particle has more "phase space" of possible velocity vectors that it can live in than a slow particle. More indistinguishable possibilities == more entropy
More the temp. More the entropy
Am i correct
rob
rob
@koolman Usually, but that's not ironclad.
@rob i see
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:37
The higher the temperature, the higher the kinetic energy of each particle
well the higher the average kinetic energy
0.5mv^2 = kT where k is a constant and T is temperature
rob
rob
Temperature tells you about the relationship between internal energy and entropy
@rob ironclad ??
Mew
Mew
yes my formula only applies to ideal gasses
@Mew yeah
rob
rob
@koolman "ironclad" == "iron-clad" == "dressed in armor" == "unassailable and always true"
Nov 25, 2016 13:39
@rob both are dependent on temperature
@rob okay
rob
rob
@koolman In statistical mechanics you get a definition of temperature as (1/T) = –(∂S/∂U)
And why for reversible process entropy remains constant
@rob i see
Mew
Mew
Well a law of physics is that entropy never decreases
Mew
Mew
So if a process increases entropy, it must decrease entropy in reverse (but this is impossible because entropy never decreases)
Nov 25, 2016 13:41
If there is decrease in temp. Then
rob
rob
@koolman If your system can evolve either to a lower-entropy state or to a higher-entropy state, the higher-entropy state is overwhelmingly more likely
Mew
Mew
therefore reversable processes must have 0 change in entropy
rob
rob
So much more likely that the possibility of evolving towards a lower-entropy state is negligible for anything that's macroscopic
If you observe a process that goes back and forth reversibly, the two states must have the same entropy
@rob i could not able to understand this
Can you explain me in different way
rob
rob
@koolman I'm contaminated by statistical mechanics :-)
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:43
@koolman suppose i have a mixture of two different colourd liquids, blue and red
Mew
Mew
The high entropy state is when the colours are completely mixed
Yeah
Mew
Mew
the low entropy state is when all the blue liquid is on one side of the glass, and all of the red is on the other side of the glass
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:44
What is the probability that all the molecules move from the mixed state to the unmixed state?
virtually 0.00000000000000000000000......1
and thee more molecules i have, the less likely it will happen
Mew
Mew
now the universe is gigantic with so many molecules it's virtually impossible for these disordered states to move toward ordered states
the universe always tends to become more "mixed" and disordered
Oh i see
rob
rob
@koolman You can also think about it with countable systems, like playing cards.
Yeah
rob
rob
Nov 25, 2016 13:46
When you buy a new pack of playing cards and open it, usually the cards are sorted: first spades, ace, two, three, ... king, then each of the other suits.
Mew
Mew
what is the chance you keep shuffling and get a deck in perfect order?
rob
rob
If you use the cards for anything then they get put back in a different order.
Mew
Mew
now imagine the deck has billions of cards in it
it's even more unlikely they will ever get ordered again
Ohh i see
Mew
Mew
This is a nice way of thinking about this as a beginner
When you learn stat mech you'll learn all the maths behind these analogies
but ultimately it's all statistics
Nov 25, 2016 13:47
Yeah
This examples cleared my doubt
@rob @Mew thanks a lot
But why for irreversible it is not zero
Mew
Mew
because if entropy was 0 then it is reversible
rob
rob
@koolman the change in entropy determines whether a reaction can proceed in one direction, the other direction, or both directions
depending on whether the change is positive, negative, or zero.
@rob hence in reversible process the reaction will not proceed in any direction
@Mew then what is entropy of irreversible
Mew
Mew
irreversible processes having increasing entropy/disorderness
e.g. shuffling cards is irreversible and leads to increased disorder
Always ??
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:53
Moving a card from the top of the deck to the bottom of the deck however is reversible
@Mew how it is irreversible
Mew
Mew
@koolman with a large enough deck shuffling cards is always irreversible
because the probability of maintaining order again through shuffling becomes 0 as the number of cards in the deck approaches infinity
How can we decide it is reversible or irreversible
Mew
Mew
By observing entropy
e.g. mixing a red and blue solution
is irreversible
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:55
because the solution is never going to seperate back into the red and blue solution
because entropy has increased by mixing
and entropy will never decrease
Yeah
Mew
Mew
Now one could try and send in a mini creature to try and manually seperate each atom
So in no case the entroph can decrease
Mew
Mew
but this costs energy and ultimately will increase entropy outside the system
@koolman correct
@Mew i see
Mew
Mew
Nov 25, 2016 13:56
Total entropy ALWAYS Increase
3
and NEVER decreases
rob
rob
@koolman In reversible processes, the reaction can proceed in either direction. I have an example, but to tell you about it I have to correct an error in the image you posted earlier
38 mins ago, by koolman
user image
What error @rob
rob
rob
Your image says that S(gas) >> S(liquid) > S(solid), which is a good way to think about things, but an oversimplification.
That suggests there's some intrinsic entropy to each of those phases that you can measure. But actually, the entropy associated with each phase depends on its temperature.
Ohhkk
rob
rob
A really cold solid has less entropy than a solid that's about to melt, and so on. Make sense?
Nov 25, 2016 14:03
,yes
Mew
Mew
@koolman now that you understand entropy I have a challenge question for you, are you ready?
rob
rob
So the trick is that the melting point is the temperature where the entropy in the solid phase is the same as the entropy in the liquid phase.
Mew
Mew
Ok, @koolman here goes: Assume that ice has a lower entropy (more ordered) state than water. Given that entropy never decreases, how is it possible that water can freeze to ice?
rob
rob
Below that temperature, the solid is the higher-entropy state, which is why a cooled liquid spontaneously freezes.
Nov 25, 2016 14:04
@rob Nice point
rob
rob
@Mew you are reading my mind :-)
And that's my favorite example of a reversible reaction: a liquid-solid mixture that's just at the melting/freezing temperature.
Ice has more entropy
Mew
Mew
@koolman no
rob
rob
It's not the case that freezing and thawing don't happen --- it's that, at the melting temperature, they're equally likely.
Mew
Mew
it is a more ordered state
Nov 25, 2016 14:06
hello everyone
Mew
Mew
@koolman the solution is, is that when water turns to ice, it looses heat to the outside world. Thus the outside world is gaining entropy while the water is losing it
thoughts on this question:
2
Q: Demonstration of the existence of a scalar potential for a conservatice force

Élio PereiraMathematically a vector field, $\vec{F}$, is conservative if: $$\oint_{\gamma} (\vec{F}.d\vec{l})=0$$ Physically, the integral is the same as the work done by a force $\vec{F}$ on a body in a closed path. I intend to demonstrate mathematically that a conservative force assumes a scalar potentia...

it seems like a good question, but it might also be classified as homework.
Mew
Mew
@koolman the overall effect is that the TOTAL entropy of the universe is tsill increasing even though the entropy of the water/ice has decreased
Oh i see
Nice question
Mew
Mew
ty
Nov 25, 2016 14:08
@rob yeah
@Mew ty too
Mew
Mew
Hi @heather
@Mew, hello
Mew
Mew
that's a tough one I think it definetly is suitable for the physics.qandaexchange tho
yeah
speaking of physics qandaexchange, any new updates?
I've been keeping an eye on the review queue and recent questions list
Mew
Mew
ty
been busy tho
hopefully can do some stuff on it this weekend
Nov 25, 2016 14:14
sounds great =)
Can anyone help me in this
0
Q: Dependence of entropy of system and surroundings

user135482I read in my chemistry book that the entropy change of a system's surroundings is path dependent while the entropy of the system is state dependent. I don't understand what it means by this. How can entropy be dependent on two different things?

Grammar tip: It's "help me with this", not "in this".
@ACuriousMind ok
@koolman You need to distinguish more carefully between the entropy of the system and that of the surroundings and read the text again.
 
Conversation ended Nov 25, 2016 at 14:24.