Homework Close reason discussion

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:14

Homework

What say?

The current policy seems to be to only include questions about concepts, regardless of the work provided

More or less, the current policy says that "we allow HW which isn't Too Localized"

(Anyone there?)

user54412

yeah

user54412

I like the rewording you gave

ManishEarth

With this in mind I like @ChrisWhite's suggestion as it puts the primary focus on concepts

user54412

well, here's my thought on that

ManishEarth

The issue is that it may be a bit harder to objectively apply

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:17

I like what I came up with (:P)

user54412

but... it doesn't cover all cases

David Zaslavsky

I think it's longer than necessary

user54412

and I really don't think we should have two separate HW options

David Zaslavsky

That I agree with

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky FWIW, "Too Localized" and whatnot aren't that easy to exlain

agreed

David Zaslavsky

Jul 9, 2013 16:18

Two separate HW reasons would just lead to confusion

ManishEarth

in Teachers' Lounge, yesterday, by ManishEarth

> generate meaningful and lasting value for the entire community.

in Teachers' Lounge, yesterday, by ManishEarth

^ that's the most succint definition of "Too Localized" I've seen till now :)

from the ProgSE post

This could be useful

user54412

I like Manishearth's suggestion ("Our policy expects homework and homework-like problems to have some effort put into them, and deal with conceptual issues. Please edit your question to explain what you have tried and highlight the concepts.") - it covers both of the main reasons reasonably well

ManishEarth

hmm, true

user54412

@ManishEarth If not in a close reason, that snippet should go into the faq/about/meta/something where we can point to it

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite yes that

Or a pro forma comment

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:21

Here's a suggestion - can we have a meta post that lists these comments so others can copy/paste when they feel appropriate?

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite Yep

Or use the pro forma script

Btw, this is what the faq currently says. It also highlights concepts:

> Physics - Stack Exchange is not a homework help site. If you have a question about a homework problem, or any problem of an educational nature, narrow it down to the specific concept that is giving you trouble and ask about that. You can find more information about acceptable homework questions on our meta site.

user54412

It's not bad, but I can see the issue - someone comes along and thinks "so I'm allowed to ask how, conceptually, to start this problem I'm clueless on"

ManishEarth

yeah

it needs to be as objectve as possible

David Zaslavsky

Well, the point of the FAQ is that "how do I start this question?" is not a physics concept

Just because you stick the word "conceptually" in the question doesn't make it a conceptual question ;-)

ManishEarth

Yep

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:24

I agree - I'm just putting myself in the mindset of a lazy student :P

ManishEarth

"I'd like to ask a physics question about how to increment a pointer in C++"

@ChrisWhite lazy student --> oxymoron

user54412

-1: the answer is the last word in your question, duhh

ManishEarth

LOL

@CrazyBuddy @user1504 @ColinMcFaul @twistor59 around?

OK, if we're going with my proposed reason, any idea on improvements to the wording?

Or keep it as it is

David Zaslavsky

@Chris understood, but lazy students are just going to post their questions anyway. They'll either totally ignore the FAQ or find some way to justify to themselves why asking a no-effort homework question should be okay.

user54412

hmmm

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:27

Oh, btw, apparently there may be some snippets from the close reasons put in the How To Ask sidebar (@DavidZaslavsky, refer TL message #10236909

David Zaslavsky

With them, it's more about having a good reason to point to afterwards, along with guidance on how to improve their question (that's what the meta post is for)

Colin McFaul

@ManishEarth i'm here

i just haven't had any particular thought

user54412

I like the wording except for one, infinitesimal nitpick: "and deal with conceptual issues" -> "and to deal with conceptual issues"

ManishEarth

@ColinMcFaul kk

David Zaslavsky

@Manishearth noted

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:28

> Our policy expects homework and homework-like problems to have some effort put into them, and to deal with conceptual issues. Please edit your question to explain what you have tried and highlight the concepts.

user54412

given that you used a comma, it feels like the "to" can't be split over both infinitives

David Zaslavsky

Here, I've been thinking of something

Colin McFaul

I agree with @David: we can't put everything into the close box text, so we should include a pointer to the full explanation.

ManishEarth

you're right

@ColinMcFaul yep. The HW reason has that

We may want to have a meta-faq post about nonmainstream physics too

The NM physics policy is not immediately obvious either

user54412

sounds like a good thing to have around

Crazy Buddy

Jul 9, 2013 16:30

Sorry guys... I had to go out for dinner... I wasn't here at all..!

Maybe, I'll read everything tonight and ping accordingly..!

ManishEarth

@CrazyBuddy A true physicist feeds off of gravitational waves

Colin McFaul

The NM is also a little contradictory with the homework: technically speaking, a conceptual question about first-year homework would not get published in a reputable journal.

Crazy Buddy

Yeah... Get me one... I'm hungry..!

ManishEarth

@ColinMcFaul Yeah, I'm getting to that once we finalize HW

I realized the issues with NM while discussing it with MathOverflow

David Zaslavsky

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. See [our meta site]() for guidance on how to make your question better.

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:32

agreed with @ColinMcFaul - the publication bit sets a pretty high bar

David Zaslavsky

Or something like that

Obviously the link would go in the place indicated

user54412

ooh that's nice too

Crazy Buddy

brb after dinner :) (don't mind me :P)

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky that would work

David Zaslavsky

I tried to combine the best aspects of the three options presented

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:33

Though I prefer having at least some guidance in the close reason itself

David Zaslavsky

see you @CrazyBuddy

ManishEarth

People may not read that long meta post

@CrazyBuddy cya

David Zaslavsky

That could work. We could stick in another sentence in the middle

@Manishearth we could also put a TL;DR at the top of the meta post

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky yep

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. Please edit your question to explain what you have tried and highlight the concepts. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to make your question better.

Stitched together

user54412

David's idea seems like a good compromise - the meta post isn't more overwhelming than the homework itself, while we still weed out anyone too laze to click on the link we spoon-fed them

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:35

This way there's an inline tldr, and a long reference post

David Zaslavsky

If you just do that, though, I think the second sentence is kind of redundant with the first

ManishEarth

hmm, yeah

David Zaslavsky

I'm thinking "HW-like questions should X" should be understood as "If you edit your question to do X, it'll be fine"

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky yeah

user54412

@ManishEarth I'm tending to agree with David here - "how to make your question better" => "you can edit it"

David Zaslavsky

Jul 9, 2013 16:36

I mean, anyone who bothers to read and parse the close message should pick up on that

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite yep, however:

there's a key thing missing in most of these, it' the fact that it can be reopened

user54412

@DavidZaslavsky read and parse - you sure ask a lot of our lazy posters :P

ManishEarth

Well, it's sort of implied, but not as explicit as I'd like it to be. Or am I just being picky?

user54412

actually, on that note, what does one see when a post of theirs is closed?

David Zaslavsky

@Manishearth true, that did occur to me

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:38

perhaps I should ask a bad question to find out?

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite "put on hold by <list of evil nazis>"

Basically, the same thing we see

user54412

do they see anything we don't, like a notification?

ManishEarth

With a caveat: The first duplicate vote puts up the duplicate banner for the eyes of the OP only

@ChrisWhite nope meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/94390/…, more recently meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/125873/notification-on-close

David Zaslavsky

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. If you edit your question accordingly, it can be reopened. See [our meta site]() for guidance on how to make your question better.

I don't especially like that particular phrasing, but I think we're moving in the right direction with that

ManishEarth

yep

David Zaslavsky

Jul 9, 2013 16:40

ack, can't edit messages from mobile

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky you can

now you can't

there's an "edit last" and "delete last" option

Colin McFaul

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to make your question better. If you edit your question to improve it, it will be flagged for possible re-opening.

user54412

I think David's was the best so far - I can't personally improve on it - but wait now I'm reading Colins's

ManishEarth

@ColinMcFaul yes yes include the "broader community bit" :D

Colin McFaul

(I can't do markdown in chat)

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:42

done

Colin McFaul

Oh wait, possible re-opening.

@ManishEarth thanks.

ManishEarth

any objections/improvements on Colin's post?

user54412

On the one hand, I like explicitly mentioning the mechanism edit -> flag -> possibly reopened... on the other hand, it may lead to more questions from the OP than it answers

user54412

what's a flag? will it be reopened? or not?

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite yep

> If you edit your question to improve it, there's a chance it will get reopened

^ how about that?

Remember, edits push posts into the reopen queue

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:46

still makes it sound near-hopeless - there's a slim chance, if fate be with you, that you may get an answer here

David Zaslavsky

I'm with Chris

user54412

or maybe I'm reading this in an overly-cinematic voice

David Zaslavsky

on that last point

ManishEarth

hmm yeah

@ChrisWhite Note that the wording is "on hold", not "closed"

That may contribute to making it better

user54412

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better.

Colin McFaul

Jul 9, 2013 16:47

I think it's an improvement.

ManishEarth

@ChrisWhite Doesn't mention reopening (Is that the same one?) but since the wording is "on hold", may not be that bad after all

David Zaslavsky

My thought about the "broader community" clause is that it's not as direct. I wonder if askers will think through it enough to realize the significance, i.e. "I have to make my question useful to others" -> "I have to ask about a general concept"

Colin McFaul

Teh difficulty seems to be hitting the right balance between: "if you edit the question, it will certainly be reopened" versus "reopening is a totally random process, and your edit will have little influence on the process."

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky The concept bit is already there

David Zaslavsky

Indeed

@Manishearth yeah, but then if it's already there, do we need to explain it again? I favor keeping the close reasons as short as possible.

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:50

@DavidZaslavsky we're explaining the why

David Zaslavsky

I'm not really against this clause, it's a good thing to have somewhere, but I just question whether it's really necessary in the close reason itself.

Yeah, I guess I just think the why could be left to the FAQ or meta post.

ManishEarth

IMO long close reasons are OK. There's still a reasonable character limit, and these reasons fit that

A three line reason isn't much more intimidating than a two line one

Colin McFaul

...See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better, and on the reopen process.

David Zaslavsky

@Manishearth Difference of opinion I guess. That's OK. For me it's not about a character limit, it's about making your point precisely. General good writing advice.

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky True. For me it's about making it as unambiguous as possible

user54412

Jul 9, 2013 16:54

let's not forget that we have bold font to play with - a slightly longer narrative is more acceptable IMO if we tactically use bold to draw attention to the important points

ManishEarth

Given the fact that "too localized" is too confusing

@ChrisWhite oh right font

David Zaslavsky

@Colin the thing with that is that the HW meta post doesn't explain the reopening process.

user54412

specific physics concept and show some effort

user54412

for instance

David Zaslavsky

@Chris oh, I didn't know that.

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:55

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better.

or yeah that

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better.

David Zaslavsky

That looks good to me

I kind of prefer the first

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky look at the preloaded ones that Shog9 created. All bold.

user54412

me too - first one looks good

ManishEarth

yeah

Colin McFaul

@DavidZaslavsky We probably should, regardless of the wording we settle on.

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:56

maybe just bold "show some effort"?

David Zaslavsky

@Colin Yeah

ManishEarth

@ColinMcFaul We have that

13

Q: How do I dispute a moderator's action?

A moderator closed/migrated/deleted a post, and I disagree with this. How should I proceed in getting this reversed?

Wait no

We don't

2 mins ago, by ManishEarth

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better.

So, guys, finalize on this?

David Zaslavsky

@Manishearth no, I like having both the concept clause and the effort clause bolded, because there are those two distinct reasons that hw questions are typically closeable

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky not waht I meant

Crazy Buddy

Okay.... I somehow managed to follow the transcripts...

ManishEarth

Jul 9, 2013 16:57

> Homework-like questions should ask about a specific physics concept and show some effort to work through the problem. We want our questions to be useful to the broader community, and to future users. See [our meta site]() for more guidance on how to edit your question to make it better.

^ @DavidZaslavsky that's what I meant

Crazy Buddy

From now on, we don't have to insert comments regarding HWs like auto-comments ;-)

David Zaslavsky

Oh, OK. I could go with that

user54412

nice balance

user54412

+1

David Zaslavsky

I think I still prefer the version with more of it bolded, but either works

Crazy Buddy

Jul 9, 2013 16:58

@ManishEarth I agree with that one ;-)

David Zaslavsky

We can also edit the HW meta post to mention something about reopening

ManishEarth

@CrazyBuddy which? #1, #2, or (|#1> + |#2>)/2

David Zaslavsky

but that's for another day

ManishEarth

@DavidZaslavsky yep

OK, so I'll post this on the meta thread

We'll leave it open for a day of discussion or so

Just in case there is any more input

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