Conversation started Oct 4, 2017 at 17:06.
Oct 4, 2017 17:06
@Phase what's the question?
Diagonalising two hermitians A and B that commute, where one [or both] are degenerate
what about it?
is this not in Shankar
I'm asking what the formal method of doing it is
diagonalize A, then look at the action of B on each of the eigenspaces of A (which is closed because [A,B]=0) and diagonalize B on each individual eigenspace of A, and you're done
Oct 4, 2017 17:08
cant you just define C=AB=BA then diagonalize C using normal methods
@shaihorowitz that's a terrible method
im just gonna go with your right, do your method
How much freedom is there to choose the degenerate parts of the eigenbasis?
if both are degenerate
@Phase in the initial part (diagonalize A) you can choose any eigenbasis you want
after that, when you're diagonalizing B, it is crucial that you don't try to diagonalize B directly, but only its action on the A eigenspaces
at which stage you can choose any eigenbasis you want (within the preexisting A eigenspace)
So
If im not mistaken
which i probably am
If both are finite, like say 2x2 or 3x3
Oct 4, 2017 17:10
@EmilioPisanty Can do. Do you have a reason to believe it's not on-topic at CS though? (We're not really supposed to bother mods unless whether or not the question is in-scope is unclear. If we possibly wouldn't migrate it for quality reasons, just don't migrate)
@Phase that's too small to be useful
You could take the eigenvectors in the basis that A is diagonal in, and assemble them into the identity matrix and use B?
Oh
Well I just mean finite matrices
yeah, but 2x2 won't fit interestingly different degenerate eigenspaces
because I'm not sure how decomposition works in infinite dimensional matrices
yeah good point
wait im a bit confused still
Say, take $A=\begin{pmatrix}0&1&0&0\\ 1& 0&0&0 \\0&0&0&1 \\ 0&0&1&0\end{pmatrix}$
Oct 4, 2017 17:13
What do you mean by look at its action, could you just write down a general form for that?
Oh thanks
and, say
wait
$B=\begin{pmatrix}0&0&1&0\\ 0& 0&0&1 \\1&0&0&0 \\ 0&1&0&0\end{pmatrix}$
god, I hope those commute
^ physics in a nutshell?
excellent, they commute
so
first you diagonalize A
and you find two eigenspaces, one spanned by $e_1=(1,1,0,0)$ and $e_2=(0,0,1,1)$ with eigenvalue $+1$, and one spanned by $e_3=(1,-1,0,0)$ and $e_4=(0,0,1,-1)$ with eigenvalue $-1$.
Then you find the action of $B$ on those eigenspaces
so $Be_1=e_2$ and $Be_2=e_1$, and ditto with $Be_3=e_4$ and $Be_4=e_3$,
so
note that $Be_1$ does not involve either $e_3$ or $e_4$, which is crucial
Oct 4, 2017 17:18
A's trace would be 1, 1, -1, -1 and so would B's, because it's just switching 1 and 1
and switching -1 and -1
in their diagonalised form i mean
@Phase that's true but not specifically useful here
o ok
So, in the A eigenbasis we just found, the matrix representation of B is
if $Be_n = e_m$, does that mean that it's nth eigenvalue is the value of A's mth?
@Phase no
that's not an eigenvalue relation because $n\neq m$
$[B]_{A\text{ eigenbasis}}=\begin{pmatrix}0&1&0&0\\ 1& 0&0&0 \\0&0&0&1 \\ 0&0&1&0\end{pmatrix}$
Oct 4, 2017 17:21
O
hmmm, wait
if only one is degenerate
:40354732 That message was causing strange layout artifacts on my machine, so I have deleted it for the nonce. If this was unique to me I can restore it, but it seemed to be a problem.
Why couldn't you just use the matrix of eigenvectors of A, sandwiched with B in the middle
and then choose the eigenbasis for the degenerate part
^given A is non-degen, and B is degen
@dmckee can you reply to the message just below? what message was this?
Oct 4, 2017 17:23
Hi people
@Phase the non-degenerate case is a strict special case of the degenerate case and it does not require additional attention once you're doing the general situation
@Secret Reply to the post below the one I killed. as requested by @EmilioPisanty.
I have a question
The artifact was a huge vertical blank space that didn't allow any further posts to be displayed.
more specifically, if a given eigenvalue of A is nondegenerate then you'll get a 1x1 block in the B matrix over that eigenbasis, which you then proceed to diagonalize (by doing nothing)
@dmckee ¯\ _(ツ)_/¯ no idea
@Student404Mus don't ask about asking, just ask
(we should choose that as the h bar motto)
4
Oct 4, 2017 17:25
Hhhhhhm... What are the 1 St concepts I should learn in QFT
@Student404Mus What is "1 St" in that comment?
First
@Student404Mus QFT is a lie.
@Slereah can confirm
Oct 4, 2017 17:26
@ACuriousMind might argue but will eventually agree
@dmckee I think it's supposed to mean "first"?
@dmckee O yes, that message of Slereah's somehow infinitely stretch the screen when the latex is rendered, but it display correctly on the main
I mean fist
First
@Phase that's incomprehensible to me
So like
take the matrix of eigenvectors of A, like you do when you just diagonalise A
and call it V
Oct 4, 2017 17:28
I never toke any knowledge In relativistic QM
You need to know (0a) enough classical mechanics to know what a Lagrangian is and how to use it; (0b) enough electricity and magnetism to be able to write the energy in an electromagnetic wave; (1) some quantum mechanics; (2) the ladder-operator solution to the harmonic oscillator in quantum mechanics; (3) probably a few other things, but you can pick them up as you need them.
why cant you use $V^{-1}BV$, being aware that it's degenerate with some values and choosing those afterwardS?
@Phase you can
but
it will have a block structure
@dmckee Lie theory,
wait
Oct 4, 2017 17:30
like my last matrix above
which is exactly that
I just went back and looked at your B in A eigenbasis again
@0ßelö7 Oohhh, yes. That would be good.
You need to know that beforehand because no physicist is able to explain it.
And no mathematician cares about the Lorentz group
So it's quite the conundrum
if you neglect that block structure
then you'll be left with an eigenbasis of B that's not an eigenbasis of A
Oct 4, 2017 17:31
Why isn't B diagonal in it's eigenbasis if it shares eigenvectors with A?
so, for instance
@Phase [A,B]=0 guarantees that they share an eigenbasis, not that they share every eigenbasis
so, say, take $\tilde B =[B]_{A\text{ eigenbasis}}=V^{-1}BV=\begin{pmatrix}0&1&0&0\\ 1& 0&0&0 \\0&0&0&1 \\ 0&0&1&0\end{pmatrix}$
But how come B doesn't even have a single element in it's diagonal? Is that just because every eigenvalue is at least twofold degenerate?
@Phase because you haven't diagonalized it yet
"have elements in its diagonal" is a meaningless criterion
._. I'm not cut out for this
it's either diagonal (or block diagonal) or not
Here's the thing
Oct 4, 2017 17:34
there is at least one fact you can infer from the diagonal elements being zero: the trace of the matrix is zero, so the sum of the eigenvalues is zero.
take $\tilde B =[B]_{A\text{ eigenbasis}}=V^{-1}BV=\begin{pmatrix}0&1&0&0\\ 1& 0&0&0 \\0&0&0&1 \\ 0&0&1&0\end{pmatrix}$ as above and say that you want to diagonalize it. You might say "hey, $(1,1,0,0)$ looks like a handy eigenvector. Or you might say "hey $(1,1,1,1)$ looks like a handy eigenvector".
do you see the difference between the two?
and similarly the determinant is 1, so the product of the eigenvalues is 1. that sets some pretty strong constraints on it. that'd allow eigenvalues like 1,1,-1,-1; but, it'd also allow 2,-2, 1/2, -1/2. (that doesn't happen here, but the facts i've quoted aren't enough to prevent that)
keeping in mind that in that basis $\tilde A =[A]_{A\text{ eigenbasis}}=V^{-1}AV=\begin{pmatrix}1&0&0&0\\ 0& 1&0&0 \\0&0&-1&0 \\ 0&0&0&-1\end{pmatrix}$
$(1,1,0,0)$ stays inside the upper 2x2 block and it is therefore guaranteed to be an eigenvector of $A$. $(1,1,1,1)$ breaks out of that block and it is therefore not an eigenvector of $A$.
this is why it is crucial that you diagonalize $B$, on the $A$ eigenbasis, on a block-by-block (i.e. eigenspace by eigenspace) basis
@EmilioPisanty that's in the Math chat room description
so it's not a bad idea (though it gets ignored all the time)
i see
so because in a twofold degenerate eigenspace, any two orthogonal vectors in it are eigenvectors right? So you can break it into two 2x2 matrices each representing the eigenspace?
*an eigenspace
Oct 4, 2017 17:39
@Phase break what?
Break the 4x4 matrix into the two 2x2 matrices
but yes, any vector in an eigenspace is an eigenvector
and ignore the 2 2x2 matrices with zeros in all the elements
yeah but I mean when it comes to choosing what the eigenvectors are
@Phase No, that's not trivial, and you strictly require [A,B]=0 for that to be possible
ignore, misread you
Oct 4, 2017 17:40
?
Oh ok
im confused
Emilio what is your comment in response to?
@Student404Mus you want to take this abstrusegoose.com/272 from step 3 onwards
@Phase the fact that the representation of B in the A eigenbasis is block-diagonal
Sorry im not familiar with the term block-diagonal
i.e. that it can be broken down into the direct sum of two 2x2 blocks
oh right
Well
@EmilioPisanty oh man, that's great
Oct 4, 2017 17:42
huh
ok thanks emilio
@Phase $\begin{pmatrix}P& 0 &0 & \cdots\\ 0& Q & 0 & \cdots \\ 0& 0&R&\cdots \\ \vdots & \vdots & \vdots & \end{pmatrix}$ where $P,Q,R$ are submatrices and the zeros are rectangular matrices of zeroes
for a physics grad student it's more like "well, i've got half the books on my table. but do i really want to do the other half?"
@EmilioPisanty I still love the "Witten to English Dictonary"
3
@ACuriousMind yup
wait how would you expand that
Oct 4, 2017 17:43
for some reason it always takes me ten minutes to find that one every time I want to cite it
reminds me, there's a paper of his I still need to read
Is A the whole matrix, and then B is the whole matrix minus A's column and row and so on
@Phase exactly like the B representation on A in the original example
 
Conversation ended Oct 4, 2017 at 17:44.