Sixth Cast Cast: Genre Tags and Series Tag Continuity

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 18:13

ok, next up, according to @Krazer's list, is tag review

Logan M

@JNat Before we move on to #2, there's something else related to #1 that I want to point out.

JNat

@LoganM go ahead

Logan M

If we want to generate search traffic, it seems to me like the most searched things for any particular show are usually going to be the endings. Plot holes in the middle tend to get forgotten, but ones at the end are memorable. So we should make sure to have good questions and answers like that as possible.

Mysticial

Plot holes in the middle might work out for currently-airing shows.

Krazer

@LoganM Noted.

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 18:16

So I'd suggest we look through all the anime with strange inexplicable endings and make some questions out of them. I'll try to do this based on my list, but others should do the same.

@Mysticial Yes, but that traffic will only last until the next episode airs. According to @Krazer the Clannad and Code Geass ending questions brought in lots of traffic long after the shows finished.

Krazer

@LoganM what do we do about some series that are anime or manga exculsive?

like with Negima

Mysticial

@Krazer Why would that matter?

Logan M

@Krazer Just ask it if it's confusing, even if it's manga. It might not bring in as much traffic, but we still need good questions.

Krazer

or ones that are down right bad (poorly written) or have little to no sourceable resource to drawl canonical conclusions? '

chirale

@LoganM Questions that seems to attract more views and are more interesting to me are not in-universe but those about industry and cultural aspects.

2

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 18:20

@chirale Those tend to be more difficult to come up with :P

Logan M

@chirale Personally I think we have a lot of those already. And they're often harder to answer.

chirale

@Krazer those tend to be closed as off topic

Mysticial

And they are more prone to being open-ended.

chirale

@Krazer and it's the big problem here imo

Krazer

@chirale we can put in some more effort to help them fit the scope. I'll keep a closr eye out for those questions.

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 18:22

I'm not a fan of most of those questions. Good ones are hard to come up with, but it's very easy to come up with bad questions like that, and they'll still get lots of upvotes. Plus at some point we stop being a site about anime & manga Q&A and start being one about Japanese culture Q&A.

JNat

@chirale adding to what @Krazer said, we will debate here old question review, so if there is any particular ones you find where wrongly closed, raise the issue

Krazer

are there any other suggestions or concerns? I don't want to keep you all for too long.

Logan M

That's basically all I wanted to say so we can move on to tag review unless anyone else has comments on this.

Madara Uchiha

Guys, we're a recreational site.

chirale

@Krazer thank you, I think this is the right approach @JNat I remember that one about cosplay but I have to search for it

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:24

Not all answers here will have factual answers, or definite proof

Krazer

Moving on to topic #2: Tag Review

JNat

@Krazer go for it

Krazer

on the topic of genre tags such as lolicon, should we have them?

chirale

@Krazer be specific

JNat

@Krazer I think not

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 18:26

shounen, jousei, senin, shoujo, etc.

Logan M

@Krazer Potentially it's okay if it's not used as a general tag for all lolicon series, but only for questions specific to the genre. But it has the potential to be abused drastically, so I say probably not.

Madara Uchiha

@Krazer lolicon, yes. action, no.

Mysticial

@Krazer As with ~~all meta tags~~ everything. Think carefully about how it will affect SEO.

Logan M

@Mysticial It doesn't seem like a meta tag to me.

chirale

@JNat shounen and jousei are demographics, lolicon is different

Mysticial

Mar 16, 2013 18:28

I'm willing to forgo something that "sounds" reasonable if it will help SEO.

Krazer

@chirale they are also genres with their wn distinct styles

JNat

would keeping these tags mean that every question about a particular anime would be tagged with the genre?

Logan M

@JNat absolutely not.

If that happened, we should kill those tags immediately.

Mysticial

@JNat Definitely not. That will destroy SEO. Among other things...

JNat

@LoganM exactly. Then why should we have them? for question regarding the genre itself?

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:29

@JNat Yes

Mysticial

@JNat yes

Logan M

@JNat Yes. For instance, this one:

JNat

if that is the case, shouldn't a genre tag be in order then?

chirale

@Krazer they usually take the name from the demographic of the magazine that collect them

Madara Uchiha

But we'd have to actively enforce that.

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 18:30

7

Q: How did the lolicon anime/manga originate?

I always wondered how did the japanese got the idea of making animated productions including little girls and the obsession with them. When did it start? Was the idea originated in japan? Was it welcomed by the actual anime public?

Mysticial

@LoganM I'm okay with lolicon on that.

Logan M

@Mysticial Me too. The problem is whether we want lolicon to exist in the system at all though.

Mysticial

But I have no strong preference either way.

Krazer

@LoganM I don't see a point in it existing atm

Mysticial

@LoganM How many potential questions are there that could use lolicon?

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 18:31

I think that a tag that could encompass all genre-related questions would be preferable to a tag per genre

Mysticial

If it's small, then get rid of it.

Logan M

@Krazer Agreed, but I also don't see any harm in it existing as long as it doesn't get misused.

Eric

What's the problem with having small tags if the tags are completely valid?

There's always a first question in every tag.

Mysticial

@JNat I actually think making it more specific is better. Don't forget that the tag is appended to the title. So if it's specific, it'll push them higher up on Google.

Logan M

@JNat That would be really confusing and it would never get used in practice.

chirale

Mar 16, 2013 18:33

in the lolicon case one can be avoid to read a question on that topic for his/her own reason

JNat

@Mysticial @LoganM ok, point taken

chirale

so the tag can be useful as a tag regarding more generally pornography

Logan M

Here's another example that could have a genre tag (BTW should this really be closed?):

7

Q: Why are the shounen lead protagonists usually shown to be stupid?

one-piece's Luffy, naruto's Naruto, fairy-tail's Natsu, reborn's Tsuna, dragonball's Goku are all showed to be simple-minded and foolish. Why is it so common to depict the lead protagonist to be so stupid?

tropes

Krazer

some of the tropes question might be better if they were tagged with the genre

Mysticial

@LoganM At the size we are right now, it's fine to leave it open. But if we ever get big, it'll be a mess...

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 18:34

@LoganM we'll get to that in the questions review

Mysticial

Something like that wouldn't survive on SO.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial We aren't SO though

Logan M

@Mysticial SO is a terrible role model

3

JNat

@LoganM lol

Eric

As much as I hate to, I agree with Logan. lol

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:35

@JNat He wasn't kidding.

Eric

SO is a great site, but not a good one to base ourselves on.

JNat

@MadaraUchiha yeah, I got it. I just found it funny anyway :P

Mysticial

@LoganM Yes I do realize that.

chirale

I don't think that genre tags will be a good idea, especially in the shonen / shojo cases

Mysticial

Which reminds me of that episode I had against Robert early in the beta...

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 18:37

@Mysticial which episode?

Madara Uchiha

We'll need to actively enforce people to not use them on practically every question on an anime with that genere

chirale

@Mysticial which one?

Mysticial

@JNat The one where I suggested we allow these borderline NC questions to attract users. And he basically shot me down like it was a personal insult.

Madara Uchiha

@Mysticial Gots links?

Mysticial

In short, he said "Anime will have no trouble getting a user-base". Well, I can say 3 months later that's he couldn't be anymore wrong.

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 18:38

@Mysticial I don't think this is borderline NC at all. It was misunderstood by a lot of people and closed too quickly.

Mysticial

gimme a sec to find his comment.

chirale

@Mysticial we should avoid preemptive optimization as hell, you're right

Logan M

What he's asking about is a perfectly legitimate anime trope. Hence voted to reopen.

JNat

well, ok. so we keep genre tags and keep a watchful eye out for misuse?

Mysticial

Crazy. I was with you until the "they may crucial to bring in users" bit. Puhleeze... This site will have no trouble attracting an early audience. The worst thing that can happen here is drive towards "we'll worry about quality later." A new site is evaluated for having a strong start with quality content, much much much much much much more so than having the largest possible audience. If these questions will harm the site long-term, don't allow them. You're here to build a strong foundation now... for the long run. Don't fall for these games just to pump up your numbers — bad idea. — Robert Cartaino Dec 13 '12 at 0:07

chirale

Mar 16, 2013 18:39

@Mysticial personally, I'm not very active here because most of the question are in-universe

Krazer

@chirale what kinds of questions would you prefer?

Logan M

@chirale Honestly I can't disagree with that more. I think if anything we have too many out-of-universe questions. I counted 10 on the main page right now.

Mysticial

I agree with Logan here. We don't have enough in-universe questions.

Krazer

@JNat I say hold off on it for now unless there is an immediate need

Mysticial

Ideally, the vast majority of the questions are in-universe.

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 18:42

Scifi which I think is our best role model rarely gets any. And I don't even think they're on topic on Arqade

chirale

@Krazer about industry and cultural aspects of anime and manga, something you cannot find in forums without browsing thousands of threads

@Krazer something at the level of some specials on AnimeNewsNetwork

JNat

@Krazer did you have any other issue related to tags?

chirale

@Krazer something like this as an answer (shorter): animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2012-03-05

Logan M

Industry questions are good but unsustainable IMO. There's only so much info that's available, and we don't want very technical questions. We haven't had as much difficulty so far because we're still small, but as we expand it'll be harder and harder to sustain a proportional amount of content of this type without duplicating a lot of it.

Krazer

@chirale this is an interesting post but I think we lack the professional expertise for this

something like this might be doable: animenewsnetwork.com/the-list/2013-03-16

chirale

Mar 16, 2013 18:47

@LoganM right, but these questions can attract more per-question visit. They haven't to be a lot.

@Krazer then the problem is that we are almost all enthusiasts and not in the industry: we should attract a professional audience as well

Krazer

@chirale I'd like that a lot, but it's easier said than done

chirale

yes, sadly, it's paradoxical

Logan M

Did we decide anything on lolicon?

chirale

@LoganM keep imo

Krazer

I don't see a need for it atm

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:49

@Krazer Same

JNat

@Krazer agree

Mysticial

We only have one question that could use it.

chirale

and then shonen?

Logan M

@Krazer I can agree with that. But other genres could generate more.

Krazer

@LoganM I'm inclined to agree with you for the shounen tropes question

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 18:51

@LoganM are there any other genre related questions other than those 2?

Logan M

7

Q: Why are the male love-interests of shoujo often portrayed to be top scorers?

In shoujo anime and manga such as Vampire Knight, Special A, and Kaichou wa Maid-sama, the male love interests (or Zero in the case of Vampire Knight) are shown to be top scorers in the class. Is there a known reason for this to be so common?

tropes

That's the only other one I remember.

chirale

more generally I'm concerned about how we describe demographics as genres

Logan M

@chirale MAL does the same thing

chirale

@LoganM you're talking about anime taxonomy?

Krazer

@chirale In America, gender targeted television is fairly concrete. Lifetime and Oxygen are stations specifically for women, so most men will avoid those channels like the plague. But Japan, where cute reigns supreme, the division tends to be more ambiguous.

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:54

@chirale Under generes

Logan M

> Genres: Action, Adventure, Comedy, Drama, Fantasy, Shounen, Super Power

chirale

@LoganM yes, in this way: Action, Adventure, Comedy, Drama, Fantasy, Shounen, Super Power

Krazer

E.g., ichigo mashimaro is a slice of life anime featuring four very cute little girls, yet it’s seinen. azumanga daioh, another cute anime starring a bunch of high school girls, is also a seinen. Does that mean only men aged 15-40 should watch these shows?

chirale

I'm pretty sure we have to avoid almost all those categories as tags

Logan M

I wouldn't suggest genre tags if the genre also exists broadly outside anime/manga.

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 18:56

So for non-series specific questions, genres are acceptable?

Logan M

@Krazer I think that is okay; the question though is are they even worth the hassle.

JNat

@Krazer I think so. Though for now we only have 3 of these questions

chirale

@LoganM we are not agreeing about shonen as a genre: the problem with this tag is ambiguous, lolicon is not

Madara Uchiha

@chirale How is shonen ambiguous?

JNat

@chirale I don't think that, in this context, this is an issue

Madara Uchiha

Mar 16, 2013 18:58

It's an anime whose target audience is young boys.

Logan M

@chirale Whether shounen is a genre or a demographic grouping is a semantic difference in this context. It has no bearing on the discussion IMO.

JNat

I understand that you're trying to differentiate genres and demographics, but for this purpose I think they are equivalent.

chirale

@MadaraUchiha someone tells it's a genre or a "style", someone it's a demographic (I agree with the latter)

Mysticial

I also think they are equivalent.

chirale

so the very question is: should we allow ambiguous tags?

Mysticial

Mar 16, 2013 18:59

I don't actually see it as ambiguous...

JNat

@chirale I don't see how, in this context, a shounen tag is ambiguous

Krazer

@chirale the Shojo Beat magazine has this to say:

> In contrast to action-oriented shonen (boys’) manga, shojo manga ruminate on themes of emotion, love, identity, and responsibility that often play out internally. That said, shojo manga are by no means just for girls. Shojo stories are about aspects of life that concern everyone—boys and girls, old and young.

Logan M

@chirale How is it ambiguous? It's a question about the demographic group. Whether or not any particular series falls in that demographic is irrelevant for all practical purposes.

JNat

@LoganM agreed

Logan M

Another thing to note: These tags are almost all irrelevant in the context of SEO, since the title will specify the genre in almost all cases.

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 19:01

like genres of fiction, adult, young-adult, I think the same applies with anime and manga genre

JNat

@LoganM good point

Mysticial

Anyways, I have to go. Busy day for me. cya

chirale

@LoganM @Krazer right: irrelevant and ambiguous

JNat

@Mysticial cya

chirale

@Mysticial ciao

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 19:02

@Mysticial bye

JNat

ok. So, genre tags are allowed, although there does not seem to be a need for them ATM. Is that it?

chirale

I should cite the case of Narutaru, anyone of you knows this title?

Krazer

@chirale it's a bit more specific than series where X does Y in Z fashion

Madara Uchiha

Shadow Star

Shadow Star, known in Japan as , which comes from the abbreviation of , is the name of a Japanese manga and of the anime series which was based on the manga. The series was created by Mohiro Kitoh and was originally serialized in the magazine Afternoon. When asked about the manga, Mohiro Kitoh stated that he had about 80% of the entire story planned out from the beginning. When he was asked about the anime series, he stated he was grateful it was made. In the United States, it was licensed by Dark Horse and serialized in Super Manga Blast! The 13-episode anime adaptation was broadc...

Logan M

@JNat IMO we should wait until there's a genre with at least a couple of questions relating to it before implementing these.

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 19:04

@LoganM yes, if the need arises, we do it. If not, we're ok like this

should we move on, then?

Krazer

OK. Summary: No action on genre tags, until there is an need for them.

Eric

There's something else from tags I'd like to bring up.

Unrelated to genre tags.

chirale

the style of that work is something that can be wrongly associated to younger demographics, but the series target seinen and then the publisher in the US have to stop publishing it.

JNat

@Eric go ahead

Logan M

@JNat Okay, I think we've reached a consensus to do nothing for now on genre tags, but implement them in the future if they get large enough to be useful for categorization.

Eric

Mar 16, 2013 19:06

There seems to be a discrepancy in how we're handling individual continuities' tags.

A while back, I asked a meta question about this: meta.anime.stackexchange.com/q/308/274

But some series (like Ghost in the Shell) have tags for each continuity. Contrast with FMA, which does not. (I don't believe Naruto does either.)

So, how do we decide which series (if any) get continuity-specific tags?

JNat

@Eric I am not sure if any of them should get a continuity-specific tag.

generally, I think a general tag for the franchise is better

unless someone wants to point out any particular case in which this would not be good, I think that is the way to go

Eric

It just means that it always has to be clarified in the post itself. So, someone who is looking for info on X continuity (or is in an expert in X continuity only) will have to read the post rather than rely on the tags.

Logan M

@Eric SAC is rather different from the original GitS. There is really probably more different than similar. By contrast, the differences between FMA and Brotherhood could be summarized nicely in a single post.

JNat

@Eric exactly

Eric

@LoganM But they are markedly different in terms of a question. "What is Wrath's role? fullmetal-alchemist" is (aside from being too broad) impossible to answer without knowing which continuity.

Krazer

Mar 16, 2013 19:10

I think if the universe is contiguous (Naruto, Shippuden) we can use one tag, unless that series is a spin off (Index, Railgun)

Logan M

@Eric I don't think there will be that many cases of this. It's much more likely to just be one more tag people have to ignore than to be useful for any sort of classification.

JNat

@Krazer yeah, a spin-off is not a sequel. It's a different case, IMO

Logan M

@Eric That's perfectly fine. It can be specified in the question itself, or better in the title.

Madara Uchiha

Fellas, I must be off

Eric

@Krazer What is FMA, then? (Sorry to use this repeatedly, it's just the one I know best.) They start contiguously, but diverge significantly.

@MadaraUchiha Alright, see you later.

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 19:12

@MadaraUchiha take care

Madara Uchiha

Sorry for not being active on this one, post the results on meta

chirale

@MadaraUchiha bye!

Logan M

@Eric I don't think that's any different from any other anime which diverges from the manga later on.

Eric

@LoganM Should they be considered one continuity, then? Or at least, as "not a spin-off"?

Krazer

@Eric FMA and FMA:B are separate universe continuities, so they should warrant 2 diff tags

Eric

Mar 16, 2013 19:13

That's my thinking also. So we appear to be divided on this.

Logan M

@Krazer Why? Should we have separate tags for the manga and anime versions of Soul Eater then?

JNat

@Krazer I do not agree with that

Krazer

@LoganM I haven't watched the anime, do they diverge in terms of continuity (only lik the Bleach anime)

this way we avoid confusion where plots diverge

Logan M

@Krazer Yes, a huge amount. About half of the anime is from the manga, but the ending of the anime is completely different.

Krazer

@LoganM just the ending? or major plot point content?

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 19:17

I don't understand the distinction you're making between continuities vs plots diverging.

Krazer

Lets take the Eureka Seven anime and the manga as an example

Logan M

@Krazer It's pretty major plot content IMO.

@Krazer Haven't read the manga, sorry.

Krazer

D:

hmmm

JNat

should we wrap it up?

Krazer

I think if a story becomes the a different story all together like Ultimate Spiderman vs Amazing Spiderman, it should warrant it's own tag

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 19:19

BTW how many FMA questions right now are specific to one or the other continuity?

JNat

@LoganM I think they are mostly about differences between both

or general stuff that fit both

Eric

@LoganM I'll check.

Krazer

Lets let it sit for now

JNat

at least, I do not remember any one particular to any one of both

Krazer

it doesn't really affect SEO that much

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 19:21

If it's less than half of them, the added work in having an extra tag doesn't seem worth it to me. It's one more tag everyone has to favorite/ignore, and it makes it more difficult when you're asking the question to decide how to tag it.

2

JNat

@LoganM agreed

Logan M

The only cases I'd advise separate tags are when you'd be more interested in asking "What are the similarities/relations between X and Y continuities?" rather than "What are the differences between X and Y continuities?"

Eric

Both: 5
Brotherhood: 2
Original: 0
Differences between them (or needs different answers for both series): 5

chirale

I gotta go, bye!

JNat

@Eric the last means that it is either about difs between them or that it is not specified?

@chirale cya

Logan M

Mar 16, 2013 19:23

@Eric I'd put differences between them in the "Both" category also.

Eric

@JNat Right. Like "What is the pocket watch for" has a different answer for both.

JNat

@Eric ok, then so what @LoganM said is good for me

Krazer

Lets wrap this up. We're way over on time.

JNat

@Krazer indeed

so about tags

Logan M

@Krazer Yes.

JNat

Mar 16, 2013 19:24

we do nothing in both the genre and the continuity cases

at least for now

Krazer

all in agreement?

Logan M

@JNat Seems like it.

Eric

For now, yes, leave them as-is.

Krazer

Ok. Marking...

Maid Café (メイド喫茶)

Participants