Conversation started Nov 30, 2018 at 8:58.
Nov 30, 2018 08:58
Suppose $f:(a,b)\to\mathbb R$, and $f$ differentiable at $(a,b)$. Let $x\in(a,b)$, and $f'$ discontinuous at $x$. Then, $f'(t)$ can't tend to $\pm\infty$ as $t\to x$, right?
@Silent I would say that's right. What's your reasoning?
(Note: I'm not certain. I just woke up. I may lead you astray. D:)
Oh:)
Reasoning:
@Fargle If $f'(x)$ tends to $\pm$ infinity then $|f'(x)|>|f'(0)|$ for all $x$ with $0<|x|\delta$ for some $\delta$. But this violates intermediate value property.
Hang on, I had a misapprehension here. I was thinking, "Well duh, if f'(t) tends to infinity, then you didn't have differentiability at x in the first place," but that's not the case---say f'(x) just happened to be 3. Oops.
Why the reference to f'(0)? We don't have that (a,b) contains 0 necessarily
@Silent Intermediate value property requires the function to be continuous
intuitively, if the derivative tends to infinity, then so must the function
@TobiasKildetoft I think that every derivative has IVP. This is precisely Darboux's theorem.
Nov 30, 2018 09:13
@MartinSleziak I see. I was not aware of that theorem
yes i was referring to that. Rudin does not mention name.
Then yes, once you replace $0$ by an appropriate number that argument is fine
@Fargle sorry for that. Rewriting with new info: If $f'$ tends to $\pm$ infinity at $x$ then $|f'(t)|>|f'(x)|$ for $0<|t|<\delta$ for some delta, which violates Darboux Theorem
Oh, I think, to apply that theorem correctly, I should write something like $|f'(t)|>1+|f'(x)|$, and then conclude, right?
That seems to stand to reason. I'm out of my element here now though---analysis is not my strong suit.
ok, thanks for your help
Nov 30, 2018 09:19
@TobiasKildetoft I was thinking of something like $\sqrt[3]{x}$, which has a derivative tending to infinity. But in that case you actually fail to have differentiability at $0$
@MartinSleziak, So, can I conclude from this discussion that, if $f:(a,b)\to\Bbb R$ differentiable at every point in $(a,b)$, and $f'$ discontinuous at $x\in(a,b)$, then $f'$ oscillates from both sides of $x$?
I am not sure about that.
One thing that brings some doubt is the claim that it oscillates on both sides.
Couldn't you get some function such that $f'(t)=0$ for $t\le x$ and the discontinuity is caused by the behavior of the function on the right from $x$?
@MartinSleziak Oh, you are so correct! Just searched this: example under heading two points
Nov 30, 2018 09:28
Oh no not the nerds
By oscillates on the right you mean that $\sup_{t\in (x,u)} f'(t) > \sup_{t\in (x,u)} f'(t)$ for every $u>x$?
Ali
Ali
Hi, Is there anybody know anything about maple ?
In the other words, similar as the definition of oscillation, but looking at intervals on the right form $x$.
@Daminark AFAIK, the nerds have their own chatroom.
@MartinSleziak this has same lhs and rhs in inequality
Sorry.
I was supposed to write $\sup_{t\in (x,u)} f'(t) > \inf_{t\in (x,u)} f'(t)$ for every $u>x$?
But in short, I am asking what you mean by saying that $f'$ oscillates.
Of course, it is well-known that a function is continuous at a point iff oscillation at that point is zero. Which is why I mentioned similar expression to the definition of oscillation, with the change that I looked only on one side.
Nov 30, 2018 09:35
I am typing the def I have, and will try to put some context.
Certainly, if I want oscillation $\omega_f(x)$ to be positive, the positive value, this difference has to be positive on the right or on the left (or both).
@Daminark :(
@Silent Schroder's Mathematical Analysis? books.google.com/books?id=jaE0dvv309YC&pg=PA63
This is definition of discontinuity by oscillation I have. So, by Darboux Theorem, I can't have neither jump discontinuity nor removable discontinuity for derivative. And, from discussion before, I can't have $f'$ tending to +- infinity at discontinuity. So, at discontinuity, $f'$ oscillates, right?
@MartinSleziak Wow! you are right :) That is superb text for self study.
Nov 30, 2018 09:43
The definition of infinite discontinuity in that book is that there exists a sequence $z_n\to x$ such that $|f'(z_n)|\to\infty$.
You link to Marc McClure's answer in this question: Discontinuous derivative.
If you look at first example - the one with $f(x)=x^2\sin\frac1x$, you can see that you get arbitrarily large positive and negative values of $f'(x)$ close to zero.
So if we use definitions from that book, in this case $f'(x)$ has infinite discontinuity at zero.
You can see this also from the graph of $f'(x)$, which is included in that answer.
Hi! When we say that an ideal is complete intersection?
@MartinSleziak I don't think derivative takes arbitrary large values near zero: see this
@Silent I am willing to bet 20 euros that it does.
oh :D
I am not sure why Desmos fails so badly on this function, but at the first glance you can see that the red curve is not the graph of this function. Clearly you have $-x^2\le x^2\sin\frac1x \le x^2$ and the graph drawn there is not between these two parabolas.
I see that you do not believe the graphs from Marc McClure's answer. :-)
Nov 30, 2018 09:54
@chris In what context? I would assume we say that when the corresponding closed set is so
But maybe I was too hasty in my conclusion, probably it is indeed close to $-\infty$ and $\infty$. (Which means I lose my bet.)
@MartinSleziak no! sorry. I was just curious, and derivative graph in McClure's answer seems to have bounds +1 and -1.
@TobiasKildetoft I'm studying this article arxiv.org/abs/1110.0745 for an exam, and at the bottom of page 2
Thats why i went to desmos
Yes, and the interval $[-1,1]$ is probably correct for that function.
But we would probably be able to make the sinusoids denser (steeper) to get infinite values.
Perhaps something like $x^2\sin\frac1{x^2}$ or some different exponent in the denominator.
Nov 30, 2018 10:01
@chris then I am sticking with my initial guess, but this is not really my specialty
So it seems that my intuition was of for the $x^2\sin\frac1x$ function, but it still can be modified to get infinite values.
 
Conversation ended Nov 30, 2018 at 10:02.