Using use, should I use using?

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 16:51

@pxeger using is weird

Usually you use imperative verbs not present tense ones

use, do, let, import, etc.

mousetail

It makes sense because using doesn't do anything

It's just a assertion on the environment

Rydwolf Programs

Yeah it does, it says to use the definition of a thing from elsewhere

mousetail

No, the other things is used no matter if you add a "using" or not

All it does is say you assume it's in scope

Rydwolf Programs

use isn't a descriptive statement about what you're using, it's a command says which thing for the compiler/interpreter to use in certain places

mousetail

No it's a descriptive statement, you can use the thing without a using statement

You just need to type the full path

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 16:55

No you can't

Exactly

mousetail

You literally can

Rydwolf Programs

You need to say which to full path to...*use*

Not which you are using

mousetail

You are using things from that path

Rydwolf Programs

But you aren't unless you specify that, and it's not being specified

mousetail

Unlike for example "import" which would actually run the module

Using doesn't do anything

Seggan

Mar 30, 2023 16:56

^

Rydwolf Programs

It does tho. It disambiguates which of a thing you're using.

Seggan

also i wanted using so i can say continue using

mousetail

That's a declaration, not a action

Rydwolf Programs

You're reassigning something to a different name. That is an action

Seggan

but thats not how it works

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 16:56

That's like arguing let isn't an action and should be letting

mousetail

^^

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail In what sense is a declaration not an action?

Seggan

you are saying that "the symbols from path are available in this file"

mousetail

The state is the same before and after

fn is also a declaration

Rydwolf Programs

@Seggan That's not what use does

mousetail

Mar 30, 2023 16:57

while def from python is a action

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms thats what it does in rol :P

mousetail

Same in rust

Rydwolf Programs

No, in Rust it doesn't specify where to find the thing in the filesystem whatsoever

It just tells the compiler "I am using this name as a shorthand for this full name"

Would you call type a "declaration" too? How far does it go?

mousetail

Yep

That's a declartion

See this:

Rust, 45 bytes: [`fn main() {
io::stdout();
}

use std::io;`](https://ato.pxeger.com/run?1=m72kqLS4ZMGCpaUlaboWN3XT8hRyEzPzNDQVqrkUgCAz38qquCQlv7REQ9Oaq5aLq7Q4VQEoYGWVmW8N0QTVCzMDAA)

Rydwolf Programs

And a declaration..._is an action_

I am telling the compiler something

mousetail

Mar 30, 2023 16:59

No

Rydwolf Programs

?

mousetail

Telling the compiler something is not a action

Rydwolf Programs

Okay, telling it to do something

mousetail

use doesn't do anything

Rydwolf Programs

Then delete it and see if your code runs

it does something or it wouldn't exist

mousetail

Mar 30, 2023 17:00

You just need to change the code a little and it does the same thing

binary is exactly the same

Rydwolf Programs

You're just drawing a meaningless distinction between things that are one thing and things that are a different thing

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms but it doesnt do anything during runtime

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail That's true of all sorts of things

mousetail

You criticized the word

@RydwolfPrograms Most of those things are declarations, not actions

Rydwolf Programs

Plenty of let statements can be optimized out. Should let be letting?

mousetail

Mar 30, 2023 17:01

Let is a declaration

not a action

Rydwolf Programs

So you agree it should be letting?

mousetail

no because the assignment that comes afterwards is a action

Seggan

let does something at runtime, using doesnt

mousetail

let x; is a bit odd grammar but let x = 5 makes sense

and it does do something at runtime

Rydwolf Programs

So...you're drawing a distinction between "let" and "the thing that comes after it"?

mousetail

Mar 30, 2023 17:02

it's both a declaration and a action I guess

Rydwolf Programs

I mean if you do that every keyword is a "declaration" about what comes after it

@mousetail This whole declaration vs. action dichotomy is pointless

mousetail

Yes

But it's why use is use

and that makes 100% sense

Rydwolf Programs

@Seggan Does it tho? Your code doesn't actually "let" anything equal anything. Your code at runtime doesn't contain any variables

mousetail

let is both a declaration and a action, Seggan is right

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms but it does. it possibly changes (depending on optimizations) some memory/registers during runtime

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:04

@mousetail The whole point of this argument is use vs. using and I'm arguing for use. If you also think it should be use, why are we even discussing this?

mousetail

IDK

I like use because it's shorter, not because it's correct

Rydwolf Programs

use is an imperative; it implies the compiler is doing something. An action.

mousetail

It doesn't do anything

Rydwolf Programs

Declaring something necessarily causes the compiler to do something

mousetail

No

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:05

Otherwise it would be useless

mousetail

the IL is exactly the same

Rydwolf Programs

But the compiler still does something

mousetail

No

Rydwolf Programs

Wtf are you on about, yes, it does something differently depending on whether the use exists or not

mousetail

It doesn't do anything

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:06

If I delete a use and change nothing else, the code does not work

mousetail

You need to use absolute paths

That's not doing anything

Rydwolf Programs

Thus, the use changes something. And it's not changing me, and it's not changing the rest of the world, it's changing how the compiler understands the code

mousetail

It doesn't change the code at all

Rydwolf Programs

@mousetail But what if I don't?

The use is necessary, right?

mousetail

The compiler doesn't care

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:07

It sure does, because otherwise, it errors

mousetail

Yes but the exact same way as with the use

Rydwolf Programs

No? If the use exists it no longer errors

mousetail

Not if the thing you referenced doesn't exist

Rydwolf Programs

Assume it does

That's not what we're talking about here

mousetail

Then both with and wihout use it works

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:09

No it doesn't, because without use, it doesn't know which io is which

is it std::io? or tokio::io?

mousetail

it uses the exact same import logic

just you need to pass the correct path

but that's not doing anything

which is different

Rydwolf Programs

AND WHAT IF I FUCKING DON'T

The use changes things

mousetail

that doesn't count as an action

because the compiler does nothing

Rydwolf Programs

It does though, because everything is an action

mousetail

and the program does nothing

no it's not

Rydwolf Programs

Mar 30, 2023 17:10

To do is to act. They are synonyms.

mousetail

it's just being

not acting

Rydwolf Programs

But the compiler has to do in order for the library to be

mousetail

that's like saying a string in a config file is an action

of course it's not

Seggan

@RydwolfPrograms are text based macros the compiler doing something? bc this is technically what use does

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