Radvylf and Ginger argue about package management

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:06

ooh, here's a good question: where exactly should code files for interpreted languages be installed in linux? can't put em in /bin bc not one file

Radvylf Programs

Depends. How is it installed? That changes where it should be placed

If it's done by the user, I think /opt would be the best option

Ginger

I need a standardized location to put interpreted programs for waterjet .jet files

which can be installed per-user or globally (unlike some package managers *cough*apt*cough*)

Radvylf Programs

I'd maybe just have executable wrappers around the interpreted programs

Then those can be placed in /usr/local/bin

Ginger

I considered that but I don't like it very much

Radvylf Programs

It'd be really simple, you just have it cwd to the interpreted script's location, then run the interpreter

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:09

it's difficult to make that work well with every language, especially once imports start getting involved

Unrelated String

@RadvylfPrograms .map definitely wins

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Is it?

Ginger

wait what do you mean exactly

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Something like:

Ginger

do you mean bundling all the files into one frankenstien format which is executable by itself?

Radvylf Programs

Oct 29, 2022 23:09

No

Ginger

ok good

Radvylf Programs

I mean making a really small executable that just changes the directory and runs python main.py or whatever

Unrelated String

just make sure there's also an easy way to take an n-way cartesian product if you don't plan to also have list comprehensions

Ginger

oh, good

Sʨɠɠan

@Ginger pyinstaller go brr

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:10

that's basically what pip does already and what I was intending to do

Radvylf Programs

You could even use a shell script instead of compiling an executable

Ginger

but the issue is where exactly does the directory get changed to?

Radvylf Programs

Probably somewhere in /opt or /var

Ginger

/var?????

no, that's for variable stuff

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, it's what, e.g., Docker does

/var/lib/waterjet

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:12

docker has an excuse bc it's a containerization system

I mean maybe /opt would work

Radvylf Programs

Why is it any different, an installed container is basically just a package

Ginger

I just don't like it

Unrelated String

...come to think of it what would be a good name for n-way cartesian product, for use with .map to emulate multiple list comprehensions

Ginger

rubs me the wrong way

but I guess I could make a directory in /opt for every user and for global packages

Radvylf Programs

Hot take: The FHS is absolute garbage

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:13

Fricking Hot Servers? :p

Radvylf Programs

There's like 20 places any one thing could be and there's a 50% chance it's not there

Unrelated String

yep lmao

Radvylf Programs

And a 50% chance that what you want to do doesn't fall into any of the standardized places to put things

Unrelated String

shit's too ancient even if people did bother following it

^

Ginger

oh, fs hierarchy standard

yea I think slapping it in /opt works

gives it some of that classic Ginger-jank feel :b

Radvylf Programs

Oct 29, 2022 23:15

/sys

Do it, you won't

Ginger

I won't

Radvylf Programs

Scared?

If I ever become a billionaire, I'm making an OS and forcing all of the big hardware and software companies to start supporting it.

Ginger

yes, of turning on my raspberry pi and seeing some shit like

panic: init exited with code -19987: failed to inititalize device /sys/waterjet/alice/packages/HOT_BUSTY_ANIME_GIRLS_VIEWER.jet.d/aviewer/main.py: unknown device type "import requests"

Radvylf Programs

What sorta packages do you intend people to install with waterjet, Ginger? :p

Ginger

i dunno man

whatever the hell they want

Unrelated String

Oct 29, 2022 23:19

good and necessary ones

@UnrelatedString would from be going too far? :P

Radvylf Programs

I guess looking at Rust package names HOT_BUSTY_ANIME_GIRLS_VIEWER would prolly just be like, some sort of random string formatting utility.

7

Ginger

lmao

my policy with the waterjet repos is going to be "I disclaim all responsibility for this shit"

Radvylf Programs

They've all got names like heck, want, tokio, it just makes sense

Ginger

I actually intend to make a little disclaimer along the lines of "software from the internet can screw your computer up, please don't install things you don't trust" that shows up when running waterjet for the first time

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Ah yes, the classic mitigation tactic of prematurely DoSing yourself so noone else can :p

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:22

the best way to protect yourself from house robberies is to not have any doors or windows :b

Radvylf Programs

I'm actually really excited for this critical vuln, infosec hasn't been spicy in months and OpenSSL's a big deal

Unrelated String

lol

Radvylf Programs

The fact that the only other OpenSSL vuln categorized as critical has been heartbleed, I think we're in for something truly cool

Sʨɠɠan

@Ginger wait is waterjet something ure making

Radvylf Programs

Yeah it's Ginger's package manager

Sʨɠɠan

Oct 29, 2022 23:24

for what

Radvylf Programs

Oh hang on, this only impacts OpenSSL 3.x.x, which I don't even use

@Ginger Do you?

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:43

@RadvylfPrograms huh, I don't

@Sʨɠɠan everything, basically

Radvylf Programs

Yeah most OpenSSL copies are 1.1.x AFAIK

Ginger

the idea behind waterjet is that it can install any package by using special wrapper scripts that let it interface with other package managers

Radvylf Programs

Which unfortuantely means there won't be as much panic and discord as there was with Log4shell or Heartbleed :(

I have some cool ideas for Taiga, it'll be a bit unlike most language's package managers

Ginger

it's basically a way for me to make a package manager without any actual packages

@RadvylfPrograms what lang will it be in? please say python

Radvylf Programs

No, Rust

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:44

fric

Radvylf Programs

Tundra and Taiga will be made in Rust

Ginger

does rust have a Python FFI???

Radvylf Programs

Probably not

Ginger

zark

Radvylf Programs

Taiga likely would not make any sense to use with waterjet, though

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:46

well in that case can you make it so that waterjet's pakdef for tundra can do the dependency resolving and downloading by itself and then shell out to taiga for installation? that's what it does with pip

@RadvylfPrograms tell me more

Radvylf Programs

It'll be purely for Tundra libraries

Ginger

so no executables?

Radvylf Programs

There's no reason you'd want to install them unless it was as part of the Tundra/Taiga ecosystem

Ginger

so it's compiled?

Radvylf Programs

It'll mostly be interpreted

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:47

hmmmmmmmm

so what's your plan for distributing actual programs then?

Radvylf Programs

That's not my job

Ginger

._.

wot

that doesn't make any sense

Radvylf Programs

You'd just send someone your Tundra code, and they'd run taiga if you don't provide the dependencies yourself

Which you probably wouldn't

Ginger

so you're telling me that to share your programs you have to send someone the raw source tree and then they install that???

Radvylf Programs

You just send them the code you've written

Probably in a .zip

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:49

I don't know whether to like this idea or be absolutely revolted by it

Radvylf Programs

What is the alternative?

I wasn't aware it was common practice to use language-specific package managers for finished software

Ginger

it really shouldn't be

but if you use an OS-specific package manager then you usually also put the libs on that too

that's what C does

but from what you've described it seems you'd use two package managers: one for the source and one for the libs

which, as previously mentioned, makes no sense

Radvylf Programs

Ehhh I guess

But not really

Ginger

?????

Radvylf Programs

You'd just install the software the same way you would ordinarily. If it was from an OS packaga manager, you would probably include the dependencies rather than delegate that to Taiga

Or more likely, use some sort of compiling or minifying functionality which I hope to include in Tundra so that some sort of chaotic thing like JS has doesn't show up

I'm not fully decided on how I want Tundra programs to be run, or what their scope would be

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:55

you can really only have it one way; either you install finished code entirely with the native manager or entirely with the OS one

Radvylf Programs

If it'll be intended for finished software, I will include compilation as an option. If it is intended for web stuff, I'll include JS or Wasm transpilation. If it's intended for small scripts used mainly by other programmers, it'll be purely interpreted

Ginger

I like the OS one more because it makes my job much easier

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger OS package managers let you run scripts along with downloading the code

No reason Taiga couldn't be one of those

Ginger

true, but doing that is so horrendously janky it transcends jankiness and enters the realm of evil kludges

even I wouldn't consider doing that

Radvylf Programs

How?

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:57

well, the OS manager then has absolutely no clue what packages are being installed because it can't see what the other manager is doing, which kinda misses the point of a package manager

waterjet's whole goal is to be a universal package manager but if you do stuff like that than it can't do that

Radvylf Programs

I really doubt anyone would ever be putting Tundra code on a package manager

Ginger

and even worse the end user might not be able to tell and then have no clue how to find a broken package

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Why can't it?

Ginger

because it can't tell that you've installed tundra code!

it only sees one package

Radvylf Programs

It doesn't...need to?

The OS package would be a black box

Ginger

Oct 29, 2022 23:59

packages should not be black boxes!

Radvylf Programs

Uh...what should they be?

Why would waterjet need to see inside the package?

You don't need to care that it runs Taiga to grab some dependencies, because it acts the same as any old OS package

But anyway I probably wouldn't use that approach, so no need to worry too much about it

I agree it is probably a bad idea to fetch dependencies independently of the OS package manager

Thanks chat

I love how it only lets you send duplicate messages when you didn't intend to

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms because then waterjet can't, say, manage versions for multiple packages or auto-install critical security fixes or even tell the user "hey you have this package installed"! python packages are black boxes and it pissed me off so much I invented waterjet!

I already wrote multiple paragraphs about how python packages are very bad!

lemme find it rq

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger How would managing the versions of a Tundra program's dependencies work? You'd need to either update the whole thing, in which case there's no issue, or do all of the same things Taiga does, like tree-shaking and figuring out which dependencies will work with the original program, which is reinventing the wheel in a pretty problematic way

Ginger

On Python packages

Oct 19 at 14:14, 7 minutes total – 32 messages, 5 users, 4 stars

Bookmarked 5 secs ago by Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms okay, maybe not that part

it mostly boils down to "I hate black boxes" tbh

Radvylf Programs

Black boxes are good, you just want to do really cursed stuff

Ginger

Oct 30, 2022 00:04

and that may not be your philosophy, which is fine, but it's mine and it's what I'm designing waterjet around

@RadvylfPrograms true

Radvylf Programs

What is your issue with packages being "black boxes" exactly

Ginger

I can't do cursed stuff if they are

Radvylf Programs

(and btw with Taiga the concept of a "package" won't really exist, but that's a thing for another time)

@Ginger Well like, what changes and what can you not do that you could if there was some tihng that made it not a black box in some way

Ginger

good question! just a second while I answer it

Radvylf Programs

During that second I'mma go eat food brb

I expect a 1k word manifesto against abstractions in package managers, ending in unintelligible zalgo and extreme profanity

Ginger

Oct 30, 2022 00:06

oh don't you worry, I've got you covered

Sʨɠɠan

@Ginger ummm

how does that work

@Ginger are you telling me you have to distribute python source files and they have to run pip themselves???

Ginger

ok we're at 200 words

@Sʨɠɠan not quite, see the linked convo for the full rant

Sʨɠɠan

Oct 30, 2022 00:23

im lucky i hate python so i dont have to deal with its package manager

Ginger

python is great, it's just the packages that suck

they're my least favorite part about it

hyper-neutrino

@Ginger are you working on one right now? if not I can post one shortly

we should have a meta post for it

Unrelated String

i thought you were irrationally mad about something not being sufficiently transparent or something but then i actually read the bookmarked convo and what the fuck

Ginger

@UnrelatedString exactly

@hyper-neutrino yea I'm working on one

will be posted soon

hyper-neutrino

alright thanks

Ginger

Oct 30, 2022 00:30

np np

Unrelated String

also ~~hyper being here reminds me~~ how bad is it that every time radvylf mentions his praclang being tundra with a package manager named taiga, before thinking "oh they're both cold climates", i think ｔｓｕｎｄｅｒｅ

Ginger

I'd expect nothing less from someone with an anime pfp /j

Unrelated String

because of the tundra pun in bakemonogatari
and i haven't seen toradora but its iconic tsundere lead happens to be named taiga

Sʨɠɠan

randomly found this

Ginger

lmao

Unrelated String

Oct 30, 2022 00:39

LMAO

Ginger

0

Q: What do we rename Advent of Code Golf?

Recently, Sʨɠɠan recived an email from Eric Wastl, the owner of Advent of Code, part of which is quoted below: Please do not call your event something like "Advent of Code Golf"; this makes it look like an official Advent of Code event. "Advent of Code" is a registered trademark in the United St...

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Whoa are you still not finished?

It's worse than I thought

Ginger

eh?

Radvylf Programs

Oops wrong reply

Ginger

(also I'm still typing the answer, was delayed by the meta post :p)

we're at 377 words

Feeds

Oct 30, 2022 00:46

1

Q: What do we rename Advent of Code Golf?

Recently, Sʨɠɠan recived an email from Eric Wastl, the owner of Advent of Code, part of which is quoted below: Please do not call your event something like "Advent of Code Golf"; this makes it look like an official Advent of Code event. "Advent of Code" is a registered trademark in the United St...

discussion code-golf advent-of-code

Sʨɠɠan

@RadvylfPrograms i was confused by the ping

Radvylf Programs

@Ginger Please don't be pressured to actually do any of the things I joked about though, I want to hear your opinions not a shitpost with a vague sense of purpose :p

Ginger

Oh, you misunderstand- these are my opinions I'm typing

Radvylf Programs

okay good

Ginger

and I will deliver a 1k word essay

because if I didn't you might doubt my resolve

514, halfway there :P

caird coinheringaahing

Oct 30, 2022 00:50

@Feeds Sorry, I'm genuinely confused as to what this is referring to

Ginger

lemme link the message rq

caird coinheringaahing

I've seen the message

Radvylf Programs

Yeah the post doesn't even link to info about AoCG, most people won't know what that is

caird coinheringaahing

Is this re. the event Bubbler did last year (and are redoing this year), where "we" (being whoever wants to be involved) post 25 original challenges, one per day? Or, is it referring to people reposting AoC challenges here?

Ginger

it refers to the event

thought that was clear

@RadvylfPrograms is a 600 word essay ok? :b

Radvylf Programs

Oct 30, 2022 00:54

Yes

caird coinheringaahing

Because, if it's referring to the event we run, then, politely, Eric has essentially no say or input into what we call it. It's entirely different from anything he does, aside from it's 1 code related challenge per day in December.

Ginger

well you can certainly post that as an answer

Radvylf Programs

I'd like to see more of the original request and reply by Wastl

I could easily see him having a false impression of what AoCG is

Ginger

cc @Sʨɠɠan

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, especially as I was under the impression that @Sʨɠɠan was emailing Eric to ask about reposting AoC challenges here

Unrelated String

Oct 30, 2022 00:55

didn't he already say that's fine on twitter

caird coinheringaahing

yesterday, by Sʨɠɠan

i was asking permission to use AoC challenges in AoCG

Unrelated String

and then that's probably how he became aware of the unrelated naming issue :P

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, don't do this

AoC is entirely distinct from AoCG. AoCG should be about us posting original challenges from CGCC users. AoC is entirely different from that. As far as I'm aware, Eric has given us permission to post AoC challenges regularly on the site, as normal challenges, but people do not overlap the two things

Sʨɠɠan

in Advent of Code Golf, 24 hours ago, by Sʨɠɠan

> I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, so I'll try to answer a few different situations that might be relevant:

- You can link to the Advent of Code website. You can encourage people to do the puzzles on the Advent of Code website in a specific way, like fewest characters.

- Please do not copy the text of any puzzles and repost them as your own work. Advent of Code content is protected under copyright law.

- Please do not call your event something like "Advent of Code Golf"; this makes it look like an official Advent of Code event. "Advent of Code" is a registered trademark in the Un…

i cant get to my email rn so i cant post what i sent

Radvylf Programs

Did you make it clear that Code Golf is the name of our site? I could see him reading it as "(Advent of Code) Golf"

Sʨɠɠan

Oct 30, 2022 00:59

@RadvylfPrograms yes

caird coinheringaahing

That said, the original event used old AoC challenges (as in, from the years before)

Sʨɠɠan

i identified myself as <my name> (Steggan from Code Golf)

caird coinheringaahing

Okay, obviously, those involved can change the name if they want to. That said, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what exactly AoCG is, especially in communicating that to Eric

Furthermore, it appears that, unlike last year, this year's challenges are all original. If that is the case, and none of them are AoC challenges, then Eric has absolutely no claim to force us to change the name. Obviously, again, we can if we want, but it appears to be unnecessary to do so

Radvylf Programs

I understand Eric's concern, but I think that given the context on CGCC, it'll be clear to everyone that it's unaffiliated with AoC

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms ffs my giant paragraph is too coherent to add zalgo text to it and still have it be funny

Unrelated String

Oct 30, 2022 01:06

rip

Radvylf Programs

Nah just leave it unzalogified

We already know not to parse HTML with regex :p

Ginger

fiiiiine

DialFrost

@DialFrost anyone? ... :(

Sʨɠɠan

@cairdcoinheringaahing agree

Ginger

@RadvylfPrograms okay, here it is

There are lots of reasons why making packages black boxes is bad. A package like the one you've described that uses its setup script to install more dependencies has many problems. Installing extra packages without informing the main package manager what you're doing means that the package manager can't recognize or ascertain important information about the packages. For example, if the extra packages would require more space to install than is available on the computer, the manager can't tell. If the installation requires no network access, there is no way to tell. If the packages require …

and I even got some zalgo in anyway!

Sʨɠɠan

Oct 30, 2022 01:18

> Every The user

Ginger

(I hope you appreciate it, that's an hour of my life I'm never getting back :p)

@Sʨɠɠan eh, it's fine

Radvylf Programs

Oct 30, 2022 01:38

@Ginger You're arguing precisely against packages being black boxes

All of those issues are ones which occur when the inside of the package causes issues which don't fit into the neat abstractions of a black box

Ideally packages would behave as black boxes; the manager doesn't care whatsoever what's inside of them, but can still effectively install, update, and remove the package

Unrelated String

i feel like there's two different perspectives here from which each behavior is more black box :P

Radvylf Programs

You're arguing against the installer-in-the-package thingy, which if it worked as a nice black box wouldn't be an issue. You're arguing that it in fact wouldn't behave as one, and that that's the problem

Unrelated String

which is to say it's just not a useful term here

Radvylf Programs

Yeah I think I agree

On Python packages

The Nineteenth Byte

Participants