P → T

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 08:04

@Seth W-w-w-w-w-what???

user136984

Well, I said this world was coming to something...

user136984

But this is just silly! I'd be in jail all the time over there... :P

user136984

Well, I officially declare war on Canada now on the behalf of the Militaristic Federation of Arguing Pandas and myself!

Avery

@ParanoidPanda please check the links in this message and comment again after reading them.

That link and that caption is by no means acceptable nor is indicative of the situation.

AND in most part of canada that was a thing anyways.

user136984

@Avery: One moment, I've just reading the article...

SmokeDetector

Jun 17, 2017 08:13

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body: Hi all, I'm a newbie to animating. I have anime studio pro 11 but dont have a by victorgrant on askubuntu.com

Ubuntu Questions on U&L

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Q: Redo backup question

Does anyone one if you like to know more about it Redo is basically used to backup and creates a bootable backup In .iso format so it can be burned to disk or virtual box Redo works like a charm on linux You can easily backup your physical hdd And create a ISO I want to backup my external ...

user136984

@Avery: Well, is the article accurate about what the law is and what happens if you break it?

Avery

Jun 17, 2017 08:29

@ParanoidPanda if you misgender someone who has a different gender identity, then that's now technically hate speech. It already was in most parts of canada, individually. Now it's becoming country-wide. Think of it like how most states allowed same sex marriage before the country-wide law in June 2015. Practically, it's about the people who don't mistake pronouns, but use it as a form of harrassment and hate speech.

it's just this, tbh:

Bill #C16 has been adopted in the Senate at third reading http://ow.ly/a7um306qEnr #SenCA #cdnpoli https://t.co/aWazzzJJaT

Tweeted by SenateCA on June 15, 2017 at 8:03 PM

David Foerster

Yes, that's how I understood it as well. It has to be obvious that the misgendering by the author was intentional to harass or defame the victim. Simple mistakes out of sloppiness or ignorance remains legal.

user136984

@Avery: What about me then? I take into consideration that somebody may really be a woman in man's body or the other way round, but I still normally call them by their biological gender, not normally to their face because I would just say "hello", or get to the point, I don't think I ever mention someone's gender to them in conversation normally so it wouldn't come up like that.

user136984

But on purpose when I talk about them to others I will either call them their biological gender, or if they really behave as the other gender, I will call them "he/she" just because it's confusing, is that hate speech?

user136984

Hate speech really is whatever the government considers it to be, it's basically the free speech the government doesn't want you to have.

David Foerster

Meh… not every speech is protected by "free speech".

Avery

Jun 17, 2017 08:34

You didn't mention harrassment at any point. @ParanoidPanda

David Foerster

even in the U.S.

user136984

Anyway, you can't say it harms people, they harm themselves by reacting to it. Ok, there is a certain point when they can't control harming themselves and you're just being mean, but I don't think there should be a law for it.

user136984

@DavidFoerster Legally it may not be, but it should be, otherwise it is "controlled free speech", now does that sound like "free speech" to you?

Avery

@ParanoidPanda You're underestimating brains.

David Foerster

Mostly because speech must be an expression of opinion to qualify for this protection. "ParanoidPanda is a piece of poop!" without anything else wouldn't qualify.

Avery

Jun 17, 2017 08:36

Even if you have a strong level of mental stability, after some level of hate, you start to break.

user136984

@Avery: If people upset themselves, a law preventing others from doing the thing that they upset themselves with does not help anybody and will just increase anger levels of the banned people and mean that the people who cause themselves to get upset will always be pampered to and never sort out their issues.

Avery

If people call out something you consider unfavorable towards you over and over, is that OK?

David Foerster

Yeah, if people harassed you about your personality every day then that takes a toll.

Avery

Who is to blame?

user136984

@Avery What does this law count as "harassment" though?

Avery

Jun 17, 2017 08:37

the people who harrass or you?

jokerdino

@DavidFoerster it's not that mistakes are legal but rather understood as not intended to cause harm. It's like the difference between fraud and misrepresentation.

David Foerster

@ParanoidPanda Probably the same type of things that would otherwise be considered verbal harassment – just with an additional topic of harassment that's specifically mentioned.

@jokerdino Yes, that's a suitable analogy.

user136984

@DavidFoerster Actually, they do, and I don't mind. I know that only I can truly affect me, thus if I get upset, it's my problem, so I don't get upset, they can say all they like but it can't affect me, only I can. Though it's harder said than done. But if a law was put in place to prevent these people, I would never improve so that wouldn't be something I would like.

Fabby

@Avery both...

Avery

@Fabby how are you, the person who suffers this abuse, is to blame?

David Foerster

Jun 17, 2017 08:39

Although, one is civil law (with liability consequences) and the other is criminal law (without liability).

Fabby

Both, indeed. Together with the right of free speech comes the right not to give a damn.

user136984

@Avery So what if I refuse to call them by the gender they want to be and only call them by what I believe to be their "actual" and "original" gender. Is that hate speech or is that my right? I am not trying to 'harass' them, I am just going with what I believe, if they choose to get upset, then that is their doing and for them to deal with. I'm not helping them if I pamper to their craziness.

Avery

That's hate speech, full stop.

Zanna

^

Fabby

@ParanoidPanda Remember Heather?

Avery

Jun 17, 2017 08:41

You don't get to decide someone else's gender.

Fabby

Everyone called her "her"

hey, cut down the flagging, OK???

We're having a civil discussion here...

user136984

@Avery No, it's my right, I'm not meaning to harass you, all that is happening is I am going by the norm I believe, and you are choosing to get upset. You see, the flag was invalidated.

Fabby

:-) :-) :-)

Rule #1: Be polite!

@jokerdino /shrug

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me!

user136984

Well, I'm being polite so if we only go by that rule, then all is well.

Fabby

@ParanoidPanda You're being obnoxious... :P

David Foerster

Jun 17, 2017 08:44

As a computer scientist (and therefore someone who had to deal with linguistics), pronouns are just labels. Like with names, just call everybody how they'd like to be called. That doesn't hurt.

jokerdino

@ParanoidPanda yep, that is pretty much harassment.

user136984

@Avery No, that is already decided by god, I just choose the appropriate pronoun. In fact, you don't get to choose your own gender either. Kind of sucks, but that's life. You'll always be stuck in the same body no matter what gender your soul is. :P

user136984

And I don't mean that in a nasty way.

David Foerster

However, calling somebody the wrong label, especially on purpose to harass them, may hurt someone.

Fabby

I believe in equal insulting: I call both men and women "it" :-) :-) But then, I'm an a-sexual non-corporeal alien being

David Foerster

Jun 17, 2017 08:45

So I'm just going to err on the side of caution.

user136984

That is my literally belief. I also don't believe that it is offensive in any way. If you choose to be offended that's your choice, I can't help that in any way.

Zanna

You are a very dangerous person to be around then

jokerdino

@ParanoidPanda so, why are you upset that they added gender to the definition of hate speech? Don't be upset then.

Zanna

You don't care whether you cause harm

David Foerster

Alternative suggestion: contract "(s)he/it" to "shit". That way everybody is insulted equally too.

Fabby

Jun 17, 2017 08:46

Zanna, who are you talking to?

@DavidFoerster :D :D :D

Zanna

@Fabby to Paranoid Panda

Fabby

Ah, because my statement was meant to be humorous...

anyway, @ParanoidPanda. We used to have a transgender here, remember?

She came in as a man and then changed to a woman.

user136984

@jokerdino Exactly, "harassment" and "hate speech" are exactly what you don't want people to express because you don't agree with the opinion or people being able to have and express it freely. But it isn't your right to ban people from having opinions and expressing them freely, that is what "free speech" was meant to be all about, the freedom of expression, but now it's just a fake. It's a dictatorship.

Fabby

Everyone just called her "her"

There have never been Free speech rights in the UK anyway...

'excluding Speaker's Corner, and even that has limits: you can't insult the crown.

user136984

@Fabby So did I, then when I found out I started saying either "he", "her", or "he/she" when talking in private conversations with others because it was identifying, however as I had known them as "she" for so long I kind of stuck with that. But I don't see how any of this is offensive.

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 08:50

@jokerdino I'm not upset, I am just defending the right to the freedom of expression.

jokerdino

Panda, you are intentionally being an annoying ***.

user136984

You may interpret me as upset, but I'm not.

Avery

@ParanoidPanda wow, I must not exist, then.

Fabby

@jokerdino Starred!

@Avery You exist...

Avery

Because some entity that I do not even believe that exists says that I can't be this way- but look at me! I am!

jokerdino

Jun 17, 2017 08:51

If you want to continue being like this, then please be somewhere else.

but according to you, calling names does no harm

user136984

And actually, you are just getting annoyed by me, I'm not trying to annoy you. I am just expressing my belief as you are yours.

jokerdino

so, you should not be reacting at all

user136984

@jokerdino But according to you, it does. I doesn't harm me, I am responding to show your arguments and contradictions, I am not upset or harmed by this conversation in any way. I am just trying to show you something different.

user136984

Not being affected does not mean not reacting, evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

jokerdino

yes, thank you. I will do my best not to let evil triumph. I will have to fight you.

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 08:53

And I think evil is best described as good intention in the wrong place and time. Like this, it will and has become an evil in this world.

Fabby

Panda, please stop acting less like your namesake and have more sex than food... (That's why Panda's are a dying species too much food, not enough sex)

There! Now I'm being obnoxious!

:D :D :D

user136984

@jokerdino It's is very fascinating that the evil is speaking.

jokerdino

hmm, that has crossed the line I feel.

user136984

But I am fighting no one, you are simply fighting a feeling of your dislike for me in your mind and increasing it.

Avery

Did you ever read the stack rules?

Fabby

Jun 17, 2017 08:55

@jokerdino Mine?

jokerdino

ha, but I am doing what I feel is right.

user136984

@jokerdino I don't think it is because it is completely in context and a relevant reply given the subject matter, if it were by itself I would consider it to be rude, but in this context where even you said that I am the evil, I think it is fine.

jokerdino

well, you are the one who said we are being evil.

user136984

If it is completely relevant within the subject matter then it is not as though it was just said as a "name calling" thing by itself.

Zanna

@ParanoidPanda I think it's more like, jokerdino would like this room to be safe for folks to be in, and by saying that people offend themselves and it's their fault when you say offensive **** to them, you are making it unsafe. You are saying we can all say whatever offensive stuff we want and it will be just fine

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 08:57

@jokerdino I didn't actually say that you are evil, rather I stated the definition of evil. Then you kind of called me evil, and I said you were, although you might not be, it might just be the result of your good intent.

jokerdino

well, if me doing the right things is being evil, then that's great.

Fabby

Life is unsafe, because yo're 100% sure to end up dying...

Zanna

right so we should give up and go at each other with swords right now?

Fabby

Anyway, with that, I'm leaving to take a shower&shave and go out in the world!

Zanna

enjoy

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 08:58

@Zanna It depends upon what you consider "offensive", and seemingly that's any opinion that you disagree with. So in fact what you want is a dictatorship which completely controls its people. And punishes those that do not go by its way of thinking.

Fabby

@Zanna I prefer going at each other with bananas instead of swords...

Zanna

when did I say any opinion I disagree with is offensive?

@Fabby :D

user136984

@jokerdino Good intention does not always lead to evil, but we both have good intentions, so one of us will cause the evil if we succeed.

jokerdino

your good intention is to call people how they don't want to be called?

user136984

@Zanna You are calling me "offensive" and I am only expressing my opinion which you clearly disagree with and that is why you don't want me to express it because you believe it to be "wrong".

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 09:00

@Zanna I'm actually trained in HEMA longsword. :P

Zanna

@ParanoidPanda that's not what I wrote. I said, when people tell you they are harms/upset/offended by what you are saying, you say that it's their fault, they are offending themselves

your way of expressing your opinion is found offensive by them

but you don't care

you don't care whether you cause harm or not

user136984

@jokerdino No, that is not a good or bad intention, that it just my personal opinion which is fine. My good intention is to try to show you all my argument, as you are doing with yours.

Zanna

so you are unsafe to be around

I prefer to stay the hell away from people who don't care whether or not they cause me harm

jokerdino

@ParanoidPanda your intention is to cause harm, knowing full well it will cause harm and continue to do so because it is your right to "free speech".

user136984

@Zanna No, it is you who are unsafe to be you by that logic because whenever you feel like it you cause harm to yourself and then try to control the outside world to stop yourself harming you with your attachment to a state. When in fact it is you harming yourself because your attachment is not met, I am not helping you by pandering to that.

jokerdino

Jun 17, 2017 09:03

Your intention is to call people who oppose you as evil and a dictator when they talk against you.

user136984

@jokerdino No no, I honestly believe that I am not causing harm, that I cannot affect anyone, that only they can affect themselves. I am actually trying to help, I am not trying to cause harm to anyone. I explaining a way that you can stop harming yourself.

jokerdino

You are trying to help by how?

By being a person lacking any empathy.

Avery

Your world view doesn't match either the SE rules or the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.

user136984

@jokerdino No, I said evil is good intention in the wrong place, I said also that it could be either of us, I don't know, I think it is you not me, but I would then wouldn't I? I am not saying that you cannot express yourself, your argument, and why I called you a "dictator" is because you are telling me that I should not be able to express myself.

jokerdino

I guess we should be trying to help you get help.

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 09:06

@jokerdino You see, good intention there again, if you are right then it is good, if you are wrong you could be doing the worst evil.

jokerdino

@Avery it is not really a world view.

user136984

@Avery I think that that is debatable, I, like yourselves, am expressing my opinion, you deem to call it "offensive", but I do not mean it as such and have called you nothing offensive, only explained my views in civil terms. If you choose to be offended by my view, then that is you, not me. I haven't actually said or intended any negativity towards you.

user136984

@jokerdino By showing you the truth, as you are trying to do with me. :)

user136984

@Avery Actually, it is the Buddhist view, this is what Buddha said and you will find it in Buddhist texts, I got there independently from them, but it's not just me.

Avery

what is "the truth"?

@ParanoidPanda stackexchange lives by buddha's teachings and not a set of rules, yup.

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 09:08

@Avery That is subjective to the believer, I cannot define it, but only as what we try to make others see.

jokerdino

@ParanoidPanda sorry, good bye.

This room was placed in timeout for 2 minutes; could use some purging

Avery

Purging changes nothing.

This chat happened. The proper reports were filed to proper authorities.

user136984

@jokerdino Exactly the kind of thing a dictator would do. Anyway, I truly wish you all unconditional loving-kindness and hope that you find true freedom and happiness in life. :)

user136984

What exactly got purged anyway? Or is my browser just slow in catching up?

Zanna

ffs

Dan Hulme

Jun 17, 2017 09:15

So guys, Ubuntu.

Zanna

yes, Ubuntu

what of it?

Dan Hulme

Does anyone here use xmonad? I tried it a few years ago but found it a bit ... not quite ready for prime-time. But our new intern at work uses it, so I'm curious.

jokerdino

@ParanoidPanda I hope you get help.

user136984

Hey, apparently I live in a dictatorship where freedom of speech is what government wants you to think and hate speech is that part of it that they don't want expressed or thought. But there is no point in me continuing to express this here, I have done so already. I have said and done all I can at this moment.

Zanna

Severus Tux used xmonad I think, but maybe on Arch...

haven't seen him much lately

user136984

Jun 17, 2017 09:18

@jokerdino That is nice of you, you think that there is something mentally wrong with me for trying to show you your attachment and express my opinion. :)

Avery

If you think you live in a dictatorship please come over.

Dan Hulme

Guys, that topic of conversation has finished now. This is not the place to discuss that.

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